Team White vs Team Black (2008) "Team Engine"

Team White vs Team Black
"Team Engine" (game of the day Feb-15-09)
Chessgames Challenge 2008 · Ruy Lopez, Closed (C84) · 1/2-1/2

To move:

Last move:

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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 129 OF 140 · Later Kibitzing>
Feb-06-09		Dmaster995: Rybka 3 19 ply: 35... Rxd5 36. Rxd5 Rxd5 37. Be3 Re5 38. Bf2 Rxe1+ 39. Bxe1 Qd1 40. Qe4 Bc5+ 41. Kf1 g6 42. Qe8+ Bf8 43. Qe4 Qd8 -0.29

Feb-06-09		mckmck: Three moves Qc6, Bxf4, Re5 Which move white team will vote?

Feb-06-09		plang: What is wrong with 35 Qc6? I don't think they can take because of our threat to double on the 8th and because of our advanced c pawn. If 35..Qd8 then 36 c4 or 36 Re8. If 35..Qf5 or 35..Qg4 then 36 d6 looks promising. I think it is at least worth refuting.

Feb-06-09		Dmaster995: Rybka 3 18 ply: 35. Bxf4 Rxd5 36. Rxd5 Rxd5 37. <h3> g5 38. Bg3 Rd3 39. Bf2 Bg7 40. Qb3 Bf6 41. c4 Bd4 42. Bxd4 Qxd4. -0.29

Feb-06-09		hms123: <Dmaster995> <37.Be3> is better.

Feb-06-09		Dmaster995: <hms> Yeah I thought so too. I just posted both lines so we would have another option.

Feb-06-09		kamalakanta: <PinnedPiece: I need advice now on how to avoid this position: Not pretty, is it. Here is the line to the diagram above: 34.Qxc4 exf4 35.Re5 Bd6 36.Rh5 Kh7 37.Bxf4 Bxf4 38.Qxf4> Hi! No worries! 36.Rh5 is a blunder which is answered by 36...Qg4 and Black wins!

Feb-06-09		zanshin: Current position baseline; Rybka 3 (3-PV): [-0.31] d=21 35.Bxf4 Rxd5 36.Rxd5 Rxd5 37.h3 g5 38.Bg3 Bg7 39.Rf1 Rd2 40.Qb3 Re2 41.Rf3 Qa7 42.Kh2 Qa2 43.Qxa2 Rxa2 (3:36.22) 1695419kN [-0.43] d=20 35.Qxf4 Rxd5 36.Rxd5 Qxd5 37.Be3 Ra2 38.Qf3 Qxf3 39.gxf3 Bd6 40.h3 Bg3 41.Rb1 Rc2 42.Bd4 Kh7 43.Rb4 (2:16.29) 1062226kN [-0.46] d=21 35.Qe4 Rxd5 36.Rxd5 Rxd5 37.Bxf4 Bc5 38.Kh1 Rd1 39.Bg3 Qd5 40.Qxd5 Rxd5 41.h4 Kh7 42.Re4 f6 43.Kh2 h5 44.Rc4 Kg6 45.Kh3 (5:00.11) 2321750kN

Feb-06-09		OhioChessFan: <I would suggest though that we hold off for a couple moves before offering a draw. The draw percentage is currently very high, but I don't think it's wise to offer it now. I think they might take it as a sign of weakness making it more likely that they would play on.> I agree completely.

Feb-06-09		OhioChessFan: < [-0.31] d=21 35.Bxf4 Rxd5 36.Rxd5 Rxd5 37.h3 g5 38.Bg3 Bg7 39.Rf1 Rd2 40.Qb3 Re2 41.Rf3 Qa7 42.Kh2 Qa2 43.Qxa2 Rxa2 (3:36.22) 1695419kN > I'm having a hard time seeing how 37. h3 is better than Be3.

Feb-06-09		zanshin: <plang: What is wrong with 35 Qc6?> Rybka 3 (1-PV): click for larger view [-0.55] d=20 35...Qa7 36.Kh1 Qf2 37.d6 Re5 38.Rg1 Rh5 39.h3 Ra2 40.Rd3 Qe2 41.Qf3 Qxf3 42.Rxf3 Bxd6 43.Bxf4 Bxf4 44.Rxf4 f6 45.Rc4 Rc2 46.Kh2 Ra5 47.Kg3 Ra3 48.Rb1 (0:36.03) 124125kN

Feb-06-09		plang: Convincing, thanks for humoring me.

Feb-07-09		PinnedPiece: <kamalakanta> Nice!

Feb-07-09		hms123: <35.Bxf4 Rxd5 36.Rxd5 Rxd5 37.Be3> click for larger view Analysis by Fritz 10: 23 ply, dpa (<37....Re5> was Fritz's choice after sliding forward at 20+ ply. When I slid back to move 37, I found these moves.) 1. = (-0.06): 37...Bd6 38.Bd4 Qf5 39.Re8+ Kh7 40.Re1 Bc5 41.h3 Qd7 42.Bxc5 Qc6 43.Kf2 f5 44.Re8 Qxc5+ 45.Qxc5 Rxc5 46.Re3 f4 2. = (-0.06): 37...Qf5 38.Bd4 Bd6 39.Re8+ Kh7 40.Re1 Bc5 41.h3 Qd7 42.Bxc5 Qc6 43.Kf2 f5 44.Re8 Qxc5+ 45.Qxc5 Rxc5 46.Re3 f4 3. = (-0.06): 37...Qe6 38.Bf2 Qf5 39.Qf1 Bd6 40.Bd4 Qg6 41.Qf3 Rb5 42.c4 Rb1 43.Rd1 4. = (-0.04): 37...g6 38.Bd4 Bg7 39.Rf1 Bxd4+ 40.cxd4 Qe6 41.Rd1 Qe4 42.Qc8+ Kg7 43.Qc4 Rh5 44.Qc1 Qh4 45.Qc7 Rf5 46.Qg3 Qxg3 47.hxg3 (Except for <Re5> all Black moves from this point on were confirmed by Fritz at <0.00> when I slid backwards and forwards.) <37... Re5 38.Bf2 Rxe1+ 39.Bxe1 Qd1> click for larger view <40.Qe4 Bc5+ 41.Kf1> click for larger view Analysis by Fritz 10: 22 ply 1. = (0.00): 41...g6 42.g4 Kf8 43.h4 Be7 44.Kg2 Bc5 45.c4 Qc1 46.Qd5 Qe3 47.Bd2 Qf2+ 48.Kh3 Qf1+ 49.Qg2 Qd3+ 50.Qg3 Qxd2 51.Qb8+ Kg7 52.Qe5+ Kg8 53.Qxc5 Qd3+ 2. = (0.00): 41...Qd6 42.g3 g6 43.c4 Kf8 44.Qa8+ Ke7 45.Kg2 f5 46.Bc3 Qe6 47.Qb7+ Kd6 48.Qb8+ Kd7 49.Qb7+ Kd6 3. = (0.00): 41...Kf8 42.g4 g6 43.h4 Be7 44.Kg2 Bc5 45.c4 Qc1 46.Qd5 Qe3 47.Bd2 Qf2+ 48.Kh3 Qf1+ 49.Qg2 Qd3+ 50.Qg3 Qxd2 51.Qb8+ Kg7 52.Qe5+ Kg8 53.Qxc5 Qd3+ 4. = (0.00): 41...Qd7 42.c4 f5 43.Qd5+ Qxd5 44.cxd5 Kf7 45.h3 Ke7 46.Bc3 g5 47.g4 fxg4 48.hxg4 Kd6 49.Bg7 Kxd5 50.Bxh6 Ke6 51.Bxg5

Feb-07-09		ronpaz1: <hms123:<35.Bxf4 Rxd5 36.Rxd5 Rxd5 37.Be3> . . 4. = (-0.04): 37...g6 38.Bd4 Bg7 39.Rf1 Bxd4+ 40.cxd4 Qe6 41.Rd1 Qe4 42.Qc8+ Kg7 43.Qc4 Rh5 44.Qc1 Qh4 45.Qc7 Rf5 46.Qg3 Qxg3 47.hxg3 (Except for <Re5> all Black moves from this point on were confirmed by Fritz at <0.00> when I slid backwards and forwards.)> click for larger view it is hard to argue with Fritz, especially when I don't have engine :), but I don't like this position.

Feb-07-09		Willem Wallekers: - ronpaz1: nothing wrong with that position. - I withdrew the draw.

Feb-07-09		biglo: <From current Position> Hiarcs12SPUCI: 23 ply, 2 PV -0.47 35.Qxf4 Rxd5 36.Rxd5 Rxd5 37.Be3 -0.31 35.Bxf4 Rxd5 36.Rxd5 Rxd5 37.Be3 Re5 38.Bf2 Rxe1+ 39.Bxe1 Qd1 40.Qe4 Bc5+ 41.Kf1 g6 42.Qe8+ Bf8 43.Qe4 h5 44.h3 Qa1 45.c4 Bc5 46.Ke2 Qf6 47.Qd5 Bb6 48.Qe4

Feb-07-09		zanshin: <After 35.Bxf4 Rxd5 36.Rxd5 Rxd5 (Rybka 3; 3-PV)> click for larger view [-0.28] d=21 37.h3 Be7 38.Qe4 Bf6 39.Qe8 Kh7 40.Qxd7 Rxd7 41.Be5 Kg6 42.Bxf6 Kxf6 43.Re8 Rc7 44.Re3 Re7 45.Rf3 Ke5 46.Kf2 (1:50.55) 464733kN [-0.28] d=21 37.Be3 Re5 38.Bf2 Rxe1 39.Bxe1 Qd1 40.Qe4 Bc5 41.Kf1 g6 42.Qe8 Bf8 43.Qe4 Bd6 (2:06.48) 525733kN [-0.45] d=21 37.Qe4 Bc5 38.Kh1 Rd1 39.Bg3 Qd5 40.Qxd5 Rxd5 41.h4 Kh7 42.Ra1 Rd3 43.Be1 (2:18.43) 571871kN

Feb-07-09		ronpaz1: <Willem Wallekers: - ronpaz1: nothing wrong with that position.> how White holds after 47...Kf6 with the idea Ke6, Kd5, Kc4 and Rd5?

Feb-07-09		hms123: <ronpaz1> You shouldn't take the moves that are "down the line" too seriously if they haven't been checked by sliding analysis. I am certain there are improvements for both sides before you get to that position. How do you like the last diagram (after <41.Kf1>)? That's the real question. If I get a chance I will look at the line you don't like and see what improvements there are as an example of how I analyze. (There are other equally valid approaches, but I am comfortable with how I wok.)

Feb-07-09		Willem Wallekers: <ronpaz1: <Willem Wallekers: - ronpaz1: nothing wrong with that position.> how White holds after 47...Kf6 with the idea Ke6, Kd5, Kc4 and Rd5?> It's still a draw without pawn d4, but I agree the position is better avoided, for instance with 46. Qc2.

Feb-07-09		Open Defence: < AgentRgent: <Open Defence: 34.Qxc4 exf4 35.Bxf4 Rxd5 36.Rxd5 Rxd5 37.Be3 Re5 38.Bf2 Rxe1 39.Bxe1 Qa7+ 40.Kf1 Qd7> Do we really benefit by forcing white's king to move toward the passed pawn with 39...Qa7+ only to move back with 40...Qd7? 39...Qd1 straight away seems more direct. e.g. 39...Qd1 40. Kf1 g6 > maybe not, its a raw computer line... sometimes computers try to lose a tempo according to their heuristic and accordingly that branch received a higher eval.. but here both sides try to lose a tempo it seems, I am travelling now so will post the alternative variation when I get back tomorrow

Feb-07-09		Touch of Knight: 35.Bxf4 Rxd5 36.Rxd5 Rxd5 click for larger view Baseline, 30 hours, Deep Fritz 11, 31-ply: 1. (-0.18) 37.h3 g5 38.Bg3 Bg7 39.Rf1 Ra5 40.Rf3 h5 41.Rf1 h4 42.Bf2 Rd5 43.Bd4 Qe6 44.Qa2 2. (-0.19) 37.Be3 g6 38.Bd4 Bg7 39.Re4 Qb7 40.Re1 Bxd4+ 41.cxd4 3. (-0.36) 37.Qe4 Bc5+ 38.Kh1 f5 39.Qc4 Kh7 40.h3 Rd1 41.Bg3 Be3 42.Qe2 Rd3 43.c4 Qd4 44.Qc2 Kg6 45.Be5 Qh4 Baseline, 30 hours, Rybka 3, 24-ply (line 1 is 25-ply): 1. (-0.22) 37.h3 Bc5+ 38.Kh2 Bf2 39.Rb1 Kh7 40.Qe4+ f5 41.Qf3 Bc5 42.Bg3 Bd6 43.c4 Rc5 44.Rb4 Ra5 45.Rb3 Bxg3+ 46.Qxg3 Qd4 47.Rd3 2. (-0.26) 37.Be3 Re5 38.Bf2 Rxe1+ 39.Bxe1 Qd1 40.Kf1 g6 41.Qd4 Qc1 42.g3 Qg5 43.Qe4 Bc5 44.Kg2 Qf6 3. (-0.42) 37.Qe4 Bc5+ 38.Kh1 Rd3 39.Be5 Rd1 40.Bg3

Feb-07-09		zanshin: <ToK> It's interesting that after <35.Bxf4 Rxd5 36.Rxd5 Rxd5>, both Frtiz and Rybka suggest 37.h3, Be3 and Qe4 in that order. I think both h3 and Be3 try to address our weakness along the a7-g1 diagonal. I think I prefer Be3 slightly despite the fact that it cuts off our Rook.

Feb-07-09		hms123: <ronpaz1> Here's a quick example of how I would go about analyzing the line you asked about. I have truncated all of the lines to save space. <34.Qxc4 exf4 35.Bxf4 Rxd5 36.Rxd5 Rxd5 37.Be3 g6 38.Bd4 Bg7 39.Rf1 Bxd4+ 40.cxd4 Qe6 41.Rd1 Qe4 42.Qc8+ Kg7 43.Qc4 Rh5 44.Qc1 Qh4 45.Qc7 Rf5 46.Qg3 Qxg3 47.hxg3> After <40.cxd4> (notice that <41�.Qe4> is no longer in the top four moves) click for larger view Analysis by Fritz 10: 20 ply, deep position analysis 1. = (-0.02): 40...Kg7 41.Rd1 Qd6 2. = (-0.02): 40...Qd6 41.Qb3 Kg7 3. = (-0.02): 40...Kh7 41.Rd1 Qd6 4. = (0.00): 40...Rxd4 41.Rxf7 Rd1+ After <40�Qe6> click for larger view Analysis by Fritz 10: 21 ply, dpa 1. = (-0.01): 41.Qd3 Kg7 42.Rd1 Qd6 2. = (-0.01): 41.Rd1 Qe3+ 42.Kh1 Qe5 After <41.Rd1>, Fritz gives <41�Qe4 or Qd6 or Qe3+ or Kh8> all with <-0.01> evaluations at 20 ply. After <41�Qe4> Fritz gives <42.Qd3 or Qc8+ or Qc3 or h3> all with <-0.01> After <44�Qh4>, <45.Qc7 and h3> are the only choices Suddenly, after <45�.Rf5>, Fritz finds <46.Qc2> more attractive than <46.Qg3> click for larger view Analysis by Fritz 10: 20 ply 1. = (-0.01): 46.Qc2 Qf6 47.h3 Qd6 2. = (-0.17): 46.Qc4 Qf2+ 47.Kh1 Rg5 3. (-0.34): 46.g3 Qh5 47.Re1 Qf3 4. (-0.54): 46.Qg3 Sliding forward on <46.Qc2 Qf6>, I find this: click for larger view Analysis by Fritz 10: 19 ply (I would ordinarily let this run longer) 1. = (-0.01): 47.Qa2 Qb6 48.h3 Rh5 2. = (-0.01): 47.Qe4 Qb6 48.Rf1 Qe6 3. = (-0.01): 47.Qc4 Qb6 48.h3 Qb5 4. = (-0.01): 47.h3 Qd6 48.Qe4 Rd5 At this point, I would slide back down the line to see if there were other changes in the line. The main points are that there are lots of possible paths through the lines that are given by the engines, that the evaluations change as the hash tables fill up with positions, and that it is important to look at the board at each point to decide which of the branches hold the most promise.

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