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Team White vs Team Black
"Team Engine" (game of the day Feb-15-09)
Chessgames Challenge (2008)  ·  Spanish Game: Morphy Defense. Archangelsk Variation (C78)  ·  1/2-1/2
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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 23 OF 140 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Dec-16-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  ganstaman: team white <Hesam7: My only argument for Nc3 instead of Re1 is that since we played d3 we can keep our rook at f1 and later decide where to put it (maybe stays there and we play f4>

Is playing f4 normal in a Ruy? Is it a desireable, attainable goal?

Dec-16-08  eisenherz: team black They will place the rook on e1 in the next move, so better get our king out of the e-file. That's why I think O-O is good.

Does the Nd4 idea work with Re1, too?

Dec-16-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  AgentRgent: team black 8...0-0 9. Re1 h6 10. Nc3 (as in Jansa vs J Lechtynsky, 1974) presents another possibility of ...Nd4.

I don't have any time to analyze this line at the moment, so if anyone else wants to put their brains or boxes on it...

Dec-16-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  AgentRgent: team black <eisenherz: Does the Nd4 idea work with Re1, too?> From what I've seen it becomes an option only once white plays Nc3
Dec-16-08  Microbe: team black I have to say, I am quite taken by the lines being discussed with 9. ...Nd4. I'm thinking 8. ...0-0 for me also.
Dec-16-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  Chessgames Challenge: team black
8...O-O

FINAL VOTE RESULTS:

8...O-O     21votes (72.4%)
8...d6     7votes (24.1%)

total # of votes: 29


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Dec-16-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  Chessgames Challenge: team white
8...O-O


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Dec-16-08  zanshin: team white If we play <9.Nc3>, is there any advantage for Black to play b4 followed by a5?
Dec-16-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  kwgurge: team white <zanshin> It's not the strongest sequence for black, but 9.Nc3 b4 10. Ne2 (Nd5 is not good) a5 creates an annoying bind on our queenside. Also, the knight on e2 will block our rook on that file. In the vast majority of all Ruy's the KR goes to e1 so I hesitate to block that file with a knight. Although the QN often goes to c3, there are some lines where it is better to develop it through d2. There are also some lines where c3 or even c4 should be played.

Since the KR is almost certainly best on e1, the QN may be better on c3 or d2 and we may want to move the c pawn, I favor moving the piece for which we are most sure of its best square while retaining options for the others.

Chances are good that we will play Nc3 (maybe 70/30 that its better there than d3 depending on black's moves), but we don't have to decide yet if we play Re1 first.

I'm voting 9.Re1, but open to persuasion if others make out a stronger case for Nc3.

Dec-16-08  zanshin: team white Thanks <kwgurge> - I have also voted <9.Re1>.
Dec-16-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  kwgurge: team white In my database, white wins 45% of the time after Re1, but only 32% after Nc3. Black's winning percentages are 20% and 19%, respectively.
Dec-16-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  Willem Wallekers: team white Why not follow Anand with <9.Nbd2>?

[Event "Wch Blitz"]
[Site "Rishon Le Ziyyon"]
[Date "2006.09.07"]
[Round "8"]
[White "Anand,Viswanathan"]
[Black "Zoler,Dan"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "C88"]
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.d3 b5 6.Bb3 Be7 7.0-0 0-0 8.a4 Bb7 9.Nbd2 d6 10.Re1 Re8 11.Nf1 Bf8 12.Bg5 h6 13.Bh4 Na5 14.Ba2 c5 15.Ne3 b4 16.Nd2 Bc8 17.Qf3 Be6 18.Bxf6 Qxf6 19.Qxf6 gxf6 20.Bd5 Rab8 21.h4 h5 22.Ndf1 Kh7 23.Nf5 Rb6 24.Re3 Bh6 25.Rf3 Bf4 26.N1g3 Kg6 27.Nxh5 Kxh5 28.Ng7+ Kg6 29.Nxe8 Bg4 30.h5+ Bxh5 31.Rh3 Bg4 32.Rh8 Bg5 33.Rg8+ Kh7 34.Rxg5 1-0

Dec-16-08  blue wave: team black <eisenherz: Does the Nd4 idea work with Re1, too? From what I've seen it becomes an option only once white plays Nc3> yes, I agree here too. I've been looking more at <....Nd4> and it really only works after white plays <Nc3>. Well at least we have some sort of sneaky plan to try an spring on white. We can try to prepare it by looking at some games that have used it.
Dec-16-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  plang: team white <kwgurge: <zanshin> It's not the strongest sequence for black, but 9.Nc3 b4 10. Ne2 (Nd5 is not good)>

Oll played 10 Nd5 in a 1985 correspondence game. Why is it "not good"?

Dec-16-08  bennytschet: team white Re1 seems like a reasonable "waiting" move to me. We don't know for sure where we want our b1-knight to go, but we do know the rook belongs on e1. So we move Re1, wait to see what he does, and then make a decision on the placement of our knight.
Dec-16-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  kwgurge: team white < plang: <kwgurge: <zanshin> It's not the strongest sequence for black, but 9.Nc3 b4 10. Ne2 (Nd5 is not good)> Oll played 10 Nd5 in a 1985 correspondence game. Why is it "not good"?>

IMO, it's not good because it is extremely drawish. I think the liquidation of pieces which Nd5 leads to so early in the game dissipates white's advantage.

Dec-16-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  kwgurge: team white <Willem Wallekers: Why not follow Anand with <9.Nbd2>?>

That was a blitz game against an opponent over 300 elo points weaker. After 9.Re1 d6 (most likely if black wants to free their QN) 10.Nbd2 would transpose to the Anand game, but I'd be generally pretty skeptical of following any blitz game in this format.

Dec-16-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  kwgurge: team white I'm not a big fan of citing Opening Explorer statistics since the database is small and loaded with weaker player games and blitz games, but there is one OE statistic in this position which is in line with other databases and that is the frequency with which the two leading moves are selected. 9.Re1 was chosen over 9.Nc3 in this position by the count of 502 to 21. That sizeable a difference indicates something to me.
Dec-16-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  Machado: team white I agree with <Hesam7> it is basicaly a matter of taste and that both moves are good. After we played d3 I dont see c3 or c4 as logical moves, so developing the knight to c3 is the most natural choice, as e1 is probably the place where our rook will go anyway. I dont have a strong reason to vote Nc3, but I am doing it because I like the line ...9.b4 10. Nd5 Na5 11.Nxe7+ Qxe7 12.Ba2, and hopefully we could keep our bishop pair to the endgame. But it is quite possible Black replies Na5 immediately, preventing this line to happen.
Dec-16-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  plang: team white <After we played d3 I dont see c3 or c4 as logical moves, so developing the knight to c3 is the most natural choice, as e1 is probably the place where our rook will go anyway.>

If we are not planning on playing c3 and c4 eventually then why put the rook on e1? Isn't the main idea of Re1 to protect e4 and prepare the d4 break? The only alternate pawn break would be f4 in which case the rook is better placed on f1.

Dec-16-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  kwgurge: team white <plang> I don't think the f4 pawn break is very good in a Ruy Lopez.

Another reason for playing the rook to e1 besides its protection of e4 is that it dissuades black from the d5 break (...d5, exd5 Nxd5 and the e5 pawn drops) and encourages black to play the more passive d6 since they need to protect e5 in order to free the c6 knight for action.

Re1 is more than a one purpose move and retains flexibility regarding where to develop the QN and whether to advance the c pawn.

Dec-16-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  kwgurge: team white <Machado> They may both be "good" moves, but the real questions is whether one or the other is better. I think it's more than a matter of mere taste when one move is chosen much more than another at high levels and has a considerably higher scoring percentage based on many results.

Is it a good reason to choose a move because the opponent MAY play an inferior line in response? If 9.Nc3 b4 10.Nd5 (a big if since Ne2 provides greater winning chances), black will surely not allow Nxe7 giving up the bishop pair. Instead, black would much more likely play 10...Nxd5. This leads to piece liquidations and a more drawish position.

Dec-16-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  kwgurge: team white Here is a recent (2008) computer game played in Beijing. Rybka v. Jonny. White plays 9.Re1 and 10.c3 and later wins.

1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 Nc6
3. Bb5 a6
4. Ba4 Nf6
5. O-O Be7
6. d3 b5
7. Bb3 O-O
8. a4 Bb7
9. Re1 Re8
10. c3 Bc5
11. Bd2 h6
12. Na3 Qb8
13. Nh4 d6
14. Qf3 b4
15. Nf5 Bc8
16. Nxh6+ Kh7
17. Bxf7 Rf8
18. Nc4 bxc3
19. bxc3 Kh8
20. d4 Bxd4
21. Bg5 Nh7
22. cxd4 Be6
23. Qh5 Bxf7
24. Nxf7+ Kg8
25. Nh6+ Kh8
26. dxe5 Qe8
27. Qh3 Nxe5
28. Nxe5

Dec-16-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  AgentRgent: team black Well assuming 9. Re1, which I think likely, our choices are ...d6, ...Re8, ...h6 or ...Na5 Opening Explorer

As of right now I'm leaning toward 9...Re8 intending to meet 10. Nc3 with ...Nd4!? and 10. Nbd2 with ...h6

Dec-17-08  Hesam7: team white <kwgurge: <zanshin> It's not the strongest sequence for black, but 9.Nc3 b4 10. Ne2 (Nd5 is not good) a5 creates an annoying bind on our queenside.>

I have already said that both moves are fine but this is not fair. First of all arguments for and against both moves are pretty general and vague, next your statistical arguments are not convincing either since for starters the number of games with 9.Nc3 is much less than that of 9.Re1 (and this is not because it is less popular because most of the games after 9.Re1 come from an anti-Marshall move order where White plays 5.Re1) so I dont think you can compare winning scores here.

Finally you said 9.Nc3 b4 10.Nd5 was bad. David Navara played that particular line in a world championship event when he "desperately" needed a win. So stop these "liquidation of pieces leads to draw" (which is not even true in general!) nonsense.

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