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Robert Kempinski vs Hugo Tirard
Medellin Wch-jr (1996), rd 10
King's Indian Defense: Orthodox Variation. General (E91)  ·  0-1
ANALYSIS [x]

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Dec-16-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  johnlspouge: < <AniamL> wrote : Can someone run this (28...Rb1) through an engine? >

Toga II 1.3.1 points out that 29.Kg1 leaves Black some pull, but not a winning advantage. My chessforum contains detailed instructions on how to download Toga, which is freeware.

Dec-16-08  JG27Pyth: <SamAtoms1980: ...Picked apart the White forces, just like a raccoon would do it.>

A raccoon playing a King's Indian *rolls eyes*

Now here is some reliable, responsible raccoon information:

http://www.cufos.org/IUR_spring99_a...

Dec-16-08  Vishy but not Anand: << Vishy but not Anand: <beginner64: <Vishy but not Anand: < beginner64: <Vishy but not Anand: Black's gross blunder starts at 18. h4??> It appears to me that even as late as 26. fxg6, white is safe.> White is safe for a little while but I can't see any plan of white attack either..> That might be a philosophical take. My simple point is that 18. h4 is not a double question mark (sure not a ! either).> It is double question mark. And if you can't show me how to continue your one simple move of fxg6 then I will also give two question mark in it. 26. fxg6?? hxg6!

Now the rook file (h-file is open for where you can find the white king.

Probably even rated 351 can also move 26. fxg6?? and do not know the proper continuation and outcome but can still claim that white is safe. You are 1600+ as you claimed, although it is quite very low but higher than rated 351 so you could make a full analysis of moves for white and black for up to 10 moves to prove you are right.>

Easy does it <Vishy but not Anand>. Just because you don't like my move does not mean you have right to personal attack against me and calling me 351 (whatever that means).

Read through all my posts - I have simply commented on each move - not against you personally.

There is no reason to get personal first time someone disagrees with your move.>

I did not say that your rating is 351, read my post again I said that your rating is 1600+ and it is higher than 351. I want to see how are you going to continue your one move fxg6 to make white safe as you claimed.

Dec-16-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  johnlspouge: < <JG27Pyth> wrote: [snip] Now here is some reliable, responsible raccoon information [snip] >

Given the state of everyone's mind on the evening in question, the racoon is likely more reliable than Kary Mullis.

I even thought "Hunter S. Thompson" before the article dragged him in...

Dec-16-08  Vishy but not Anand: < chrisowen: <Vishy but not Anand> Play might continue 21.a4 g5 22.Rfd1 Rg8 23.Rd4 Kh8 24.h3...white is still winning the battle of space and time. In the game it reaches e4 from where the knight looks in the enemy camp. >

Why 21. ....g5 immediately?? That move only weakens black king side and yet no purpose, it can be defer until there is a real potential threat coming ...else that move is useless.

Why not try to exchange the queen by 21.... Qc5, anyway black queen is a bit misplaced in a5 so it is better to exchange it with the white active queen or put it into action by controlling a diagonal and potential attack. White option Qxc5, Qe4, Qd2, Qg3, Qh3, Qc3 or Qf4.

(a) 22. Qxc5 dxc5 23. Rcd1 Rd7 (position still unclear)

(b) 22. Qe4 b5! (creating an open file for the rooks) 23. a5 Rac8 and black is better in the position

(c) 22. Qd2 (a better option) a5 23. Rf4 g5 (position still unclear)

(d) 22. Qg3 b5! (similar to (b) black is better in the position)

(e) 22. Qh3 b5! (similar to (b) black is better in the position)

22. Qc3 a5 (position still unclear)
22. Qf4 g5 23. Qd2 a5 (position still unclear)(23. Qg3 b5! black is better)

I can't see yet any real chances that white has a clear winning chances in space (and time?? I can't tell that white is winning in time if I will make the moves for black) with those continuation.

Dec-16-08  beginner64: <Vishy but not Anand: .. I want to see how are you going to continue your one move fxg6 to make white safe as you claimed.> Perhaps you can help by posting a few lines on how fxg6 leads to loss of game or loss of material for white?

I had thought of 26. fxg6 hxg6 27. Qxe5 fxe5 28. Re3. If 26.. Qxe3, then 27. Rxe3 hxg6.

I frankly don't see a threat to either side in either of these lines.

Dec-17-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  chrisowen: <Vishy but not> In the present position isnt black cramped and cannot make progress if b5 is stopped? Honestly i think white gains advantage, i'm excited seeing it resolved. I'd monitor the break and play accordiongly i'd say.
Dec-17-08  Vishy but not Anand: <beginner64: <Vishy but not Anand: .. I want to see how are you going to continue your one move fxg6 to make white safe as you claimed.> Perhaps you can help by posting a few lines on how fxg6 leads to loss of game or loss of material for white? I had thought of 26. fxg6 hxg6 27. Qxe5 fxe5 28. Re3. If 26.. Qxe3, then 27. Rxe3 hxg6.

I frankly don't see a threat to either side in either of these lines.>

Maybe with your continuation you can frankly says you don't see a threat to either side due to 26.... fxe5?? is an erroneous continuation better is 26. ....dxe5

26. ....dxe5
27. Re3 (or Rb1) Rcb7
28. Rff6 (or 28. Rb1 Rb5 in blacks favor) e5
29. Rh6 f5 at obvious black's advantage

Dec-17-08  Vishy but not Anand: < chrisowen: <Vishy but not> In the present position isnt black cramped and cannot make progress if b5 is stopped? Honestly i think white gains advantage, i'm excited seeing it resolved. I'd monitor the break and play accordiongly i'd say. >

b5 should be stopped, else it would have more negative impact than positive for black. Honestly, if you believe that white gains advantage, you have to show it. It is easy to say that white gains advantage, I can't see white can make further impressive development as you says in your previous post that "white is still winning the battle of space and time".

You said "I'd monitor the break and play accordiongly i'd say(I did not correct the spelling to make it verbatim (but no problem, I really don't care of typo error)". Nice claim but it is nicer to show how you monitor the sequence of moves so your claim that white is still winning is shown at the board not just a nice narrative story.

Dec-17-08  Vishy but not Anand: <beginner64: <Vishy but not Anand: .. I want to see how are you going to continue your one move fxg6 to make white safe as you claimed.> Perhaps you can help by posting a few lines on how fxg6 leads to loss of game or loss of material for white? I had thought of 26. fxg6 hxg6 27. Qxe5 fxe5 28. Re3. If 26.. Qxe3, then 27. Rxe3 hxg6. I frankly don't see a threat to either side in either of these lines.>

Maybe with your continuation you can frankly says you don't see a threat to either side due to 26.... fxe5?? is an erroneous continuation better is 26. ....dxe5

26. ....dxe5
27. Re3 (or Rb1) Rcb7
28. Rff3 (or 28. Rb1 Rb5 in blacks favor) e5
29. Rh3 f5 at obvious black's advantage

Dec-17-08  beginner64: <Vishy but not Anand: ..
26. ....dxe5
27. Re3 (or Rb1) Rcb7
28. Rff3 (or 28. Rb1 Rb5 in blacks favor) e5
29. Rh3 f5 at obvious black's advantage>

Even accepting your line, what is so "obvious" about black's advantage? There is no mating threat, no material difference, no material under threat.

Does your engine valuation show anything significant?

Dec-17-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  chrisowen: <vishy but not anand> seriously it needs consideration...white has more space where does black breakthrough?.. 22.Qd2 a5 rc3 g5 rg3 qa3 h4 h6 kh2 qb4 qxb4 axb4 bh5 rh8 rh3 rcc8 hxg5 g4...
Dec-17-08  Vishy but not Anand: < beginner64: <Vishy but not Anand: .. 26. ....dxe5
27. Re3 (or Rb1) Rcb7
28. Rff3 (or 28. Rb1 Rb5 in blacks favor) e5
29. Rh3 f5 at obvious black's advantage>

Even accepting your line, what is so "obvious" about black's advantage? There is no mating threat, no material difference, no material under threat. Does your engine valuation show anything significant?>

Pity you! You do not know how to evaluate position. Positional advantage doesn't mean you have to get material advantage or immediate mating threat. You can't even see the pressure on b-file.

Engine valuation?? You are really rated 1600+. If you are not able to make an analysis, you thought that somebody needs an engine to make simple analysis. I don't need an engine and you should never depend on engine, it makes you a moron that if you start to make analysis, you can only show one move at a time and if force to show the rest, another 2 question mark will be given to the next moves due to incorrect analysis.

Don't tell me that I personally attack you again and says that I said, you think like really a very lowly rated 351 making incorrect analysis but still claims understood the position! I said you are rated 1600+.

Dec-18-08  beginner64: <Vishy but not Anand>That's it. I have tried 3 times to reason with you. Every single time you are just plain name calling, bullying and using the ratings as the basis of your words, rather than giving any reasonable analysis. You are on my ignore list now.
Dec-18-08  Vishy but not Anand: < beginner64: <Vishy but not Anand>That's it. I have tried 3 times to reason with you. Every single time you are just plain name calling, bullying and using the ratings as the basis of your words, rather than giving any reasonable analysis. You are on my ignore list now. >

Thank you!! Atlast, I save my time answering unsupported claims!

Dec-18-08  Vishy but not Anand: < chrisowen: <vishy but not anand> seriously it needs consideration...white has more space where does black breakthrough?.. 22.Qd2 a5 rc3 g5 rg3 qa3 h4 h6 kh2 qb4 qxb4 axb4 bh5 rh8 rh3 rcc8 hxg5 g4... >

I would rather consider your continuation as an error in analysis than to believe that it is a help loss analysis for black in order for you to support that "<white is still winning the battle of space and time>" as you previously mentioned.

The two succeeding continuation for black are simply waste of moves 23 ....g5? and 24....Qa3?? and move 26. Qb5? due to the following reasons.

(1) 23....g5? is like giving an extra move for white. g5 should be deferred until a direct attack is coming (I will demonstrate it later).

(2) 24....Qa3?? is a very bad move due to the queen has no purpose at all at an even worse than a5 square?? I already put the black queen into a better square from a misplaced a5 and misplacing it again to a3 based on your analysis doesn't make sense to me(Unless if you have a very good reason for moving black queen that it is the best square for it to control <what?>, then please explain).

(3) Also the exchange of queen at b5 in move 26 is another waste of move. If your intention is to exchange it, you should do it in move 23 but still dont see a reason to do it at that early stage. But with so much waste of move and putting it in a bad square (a3?) then it is better to get that queen out of the board much earlier!

I prefer the following continuation...
23......Rh8
24. Rh3 (Rg3? Rcc8 no need to move g-pawn to g5 since it is still well protected by h-pawn and a knight) g5

25. Rg3 h6
26. h4? Rcc8 (now white can't even take the g-pawn due to it will open the h-file with check to white king and white king can't even move to g1 due to the black queen is now controlling a good diagonal than a misplaced a5 and your suggested black move of Qa3. Exchange of rook will be the only solution which is not good for white and still favors black due to another rook is coming to h-file soon)

27. Bh5 Rcg8

With the above provided analysis, I still can't see that "white is really winning space and time" as you previously said. One inferior move of white can turn the table around in favor of black!

Dec-18-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  chrisowen: <vishy but not anand> it is a pleasure that I receive your post, thank-you for your detailed response. Looking at your line a train of thought is if 23..rh8 rh3 g5 rg3 h6 then isnt bh5 more industrious?
Dec-18-08  Vishy but not Anand: <chrisowen: <vishy but not anand> it is a pleasure that I receive your post, thank-you for your detailed response. Looking at your line a train of thought is if 23..rh8 rh3 g5 rg3 h6 then isnt bh5 more industrious?>

Actually it doesn't matter if you move Bh5 earlier than later due to I believe it has no much purpose in there due to it cannot move to g6 anyway (it is protected by black knight). It will only lead to a misplaced bishop.

Dec-19-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  chrisowen: <Vishy but not Anand> Still it requires black making progress, which it is feasible, but i follow what you say. One thought is saccing the exchange: 26. bh5 qb4 qxb4 axb4 h4 kf8 hxg5 hxg5 rh3 e6 fxe6 rch7 g4 ke7 kg2 ng6 kg3 nf4 rxf4 gxf4 kxf4 rg7 a5 rgg8 rh1 ra8 ra1 ra6 ra4 rha8.
Dec-20-08  Vishy but not Anand: <chrisowen: <Vishy but not Anand> Still it requires black making progress, which it is feasible, but i follow what you say. One thought is saccing the exchange: 26. bh5 qb4 qxb4 axb4 h4 kf8 hxg5 hxg5 rh3 e6 fxe6 rch7 g4 ke7 kg2 ng6 kg3 nf4 rxf4 gxf4 kxf4 rg7 a5 rgg8 rh1 ra8 ra1 ra6 ra4 rha8.>

Why do you want to exchange the queen? 26....Qb4?? forget about queen exchange, it will only happen if it is really necessary but so far I don't see it. It controls the important diagonal. Next is 27. ... Kf8?? is also a very bad move, why do you need to move the black king? I can't see any reason for it unless you have one... then explain it. The worst of them all ....e6??? is very illogical, what is that move for? to have white a passed pawn? No offense but they are series of wrong continuation. Just simply move the other rook down to c8 26... Rcc8, no need to hurry to cramp even more black pieces for white advantage. My advise for you is always make the logical move for both sides, if you find let say that black response in your analysis doesn't make sense then you have to find a better one. You can do that by trying to play like you are white then afterwards your opponent is yourself (black) that you also have to make the best possible countermove. The rest of continuation are almost described in my previous post, have a look at it so you will not be misled by wrong analysis..

Dec-20-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  chrisowen: <Vishy but not Anand> I nearly think it teaches a lesson of blocked positions no? The point here is what can black do apart from shuffle the major pieces?
Dec-20-08  Vishy but not Anand: < chrisowen: <Vishy but not Anand> I nearly think it teaches a lesson of blocked positions no? The point here is what can black do apart from shuffle the major pieces? > Yes, you are right it teaches a lesson of blocked positions but also teaches how to avoid it.

I am sure you have noticed from my analysis in how to improve black position from a very cramped to a playable position.

(1) I have put black queen to a better square of c5 from a misplaced a5 square.

(2) Moving black pawn to a5 to block white pawns rolling in queenside of which will have a negative impact for black.

(3) Positioning major pieces in advance from misplaced squares (like rooks in c7 and a8) to the battle arena squares for potential white attack of which will give black a chance for a counter attack rather than untimely defending the king by pawn move (like g5) or moving the black queen to much even worst square at a3 (just like hiding away from the battle space arena of which also a waste of move)and afterwards tried to exchange it in succeeding move (another waste of move)or moving the king to f8? (it has no use moving it there due to there is no fatal threat yet on g7 and it only blocks the mobility of black rooks. Every move is important. If untimely defended, it will give an extra move for the opponent. Black is already one move behind and giving another extra move for white is fatal.

(4) Do not exchange the queen unless if it is really necessary. It adds pressure in g1 that limits the mobility of white king.

(5) Though knight is not in attacking position but it protects indirectly the weakness in e-file and it limit white pieces mobility within its reach (g4,g6,d3,c4 and if white g-pawn will be moved later it also get attacking chances in f3 square.

I hope this explanation helps.

Dec-21-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  chrisowen: <Vishy but not Anand... I hope this explanation helps> It does, you've put me straight. Pardon inaccuracies if i've made them. Any good advantage dwindles over the course of the game, nevertheless you've made it interesting, bonheur!
Dec-21-08  Vishy but not Anand: <chrisowen: <Vishy but not Anand... I hope this explanation helps> It does, you've put me straight. Pardon inaccuracies if i've made them. Any good advantage dwindles over the course of the game, nevertheless you've made it interesting, bonheur!>

No problem, you are welcome. Holidays are fast approaching and we have to enjoy them!! Merry Christmas chrisowen

Jun-06-11  chessicle: Is it me, or is <Vishy but not Anand> a bit of a windbag?
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