< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
|Jun-26-09|| ||Patriot: Very thorough analysis <CHESSTTCAMPS>.|
Backing up to move 12 as black considering 12...Nc6: How many of you would've considered 13.Nh5 as a possible response? 12...Nc6 looks reasonable since black would love to castle, but can't since Ne7 would hang. What's a reasonable candidate here? Seeing that 12...Nc6 is unsafe is another one of the difficulties in this great game.
|Jun-26-09|| ||jsheedy: Interesting ideas: 13. Nh5, gxh5, 14. Rxf7, h6, 15. Bf4 (15. Bxe6, hxg5, 16. Rxg7, Qe5 wins for black), Be5, 16. Qxh5, Kd8, 17. Qh4+, Ke8, 18. Qh5, Kd8, 19. Qh4+, Ke8, 20. Qh5, Kd8, 21. Qh4+, Ke8 draw by repetition. –with help from Rybka 2.2n2 mp 32 bit.|
|Jun-26-09|| ||jsheedy: My Rybka did not try 13. Nh5, instead opting for 13. Qd2 and an even game.|
|Jun-26-09|| ||sheaf: Rf5 is the only difficult move to visualize..|
|Jun-26-09|| ||kevin86: No chance on this one...|
|Jun-26-09|| ||gofer: 13 Nh5!
13 ... gxh5
14 Rxf7 Kxf7
15 Qxh5+ Kg8
16 Rf1 threatning Qf7#
16 ... Ne5/Nd8/d6/d5 (stopping Qf7#) 17 Qe8+ Bf8 Qxf8#
16 ... h6 17 Qf7+ Kh7 18 Bf6 Rg8 19 Bxe6 winning the queen or mating
Now there a lots of variations as obviously both gxh5 and Kxf7 are optional for black, but I think we can quickly realise that gxh5 is forced...
13 ... O-O 14 Nxg7 Kxg7 (otherwise white is winning) 15 Bf6+ Kg8 16 Qd2 mating with Qh6 Qg7
13 ... Bf8 loosing the queen to Nf6+
13 ... Bd5 14 Nf6+ Bxf6 (not taking is not really an option as Kf8 is terrible for black) 15 Bxf6 Rg8 16 Qf3 winning easily as f7 and h7 are very difficult to protect.
But what are the options for black other than 14 ... Kxf7?
13 Nh5 gxh5
14 Rxf7 ...
14 ... Bd5? 15 Qxh5 and the discovered checks are too huge to cope with...
14 ... Rf8 15 Bxg7 with insurmountable problems for black...
Nope is all looks pretty nasty for black...
Time to check...
|Jun-26-09|| ||agb2002: Black is a pawn ahead and is about to consolidate his position with ... Ne5, ... d6, ... Bd7 , ... 0-0-0, etc. However, five white pieces seem to be ready to attack the black king, the only problem being finding an invasion path for the white queen. This suggests, 13.Nh5:|
A) 13... gxh5 14.Rxf7
A.1) 14... Kxf7 15.Qxh5+ Kf8 (15... Kg8 16.Qe8+ Bf8 17.Rf1) 16.Rf1+ Bf6 (16... Kg8 17.Qe8+) 17.Rxf6+ Ke7 18.Rxe6+ Kf8 19.Bh6+ Kg8 20.Re8#.
A.2) 14... h6 15.Bf4 (15.Qxh5 hxg5 16.Qg6 Qxh2+ 17.Kf2 Qh5)
A.2.a) 15... e5 16.Qxh5+ Kd8 (16... Kf8 17.Qf7#) 17.Qh4+ Ke8 18.Qf6 + -, threatening 19.Bf7+ Kf8 20.Bg6#. If 18... Qd8 19.Qf7#.
A.2.b) 15... Be5 16.Qxh5 Bxf4 (16... Kd8 17.Bg5+; 16... Rf8 17.Rf5+ and 18.Bxe5) 17.Rh7+ Kd8 18.Rxh8+ Ke7 19.Qe8+ Kf6 (19... Kd6 20.Qf8+ Ne7 21.Qxf4+) 20.Rf1 with a winning attack.
A.3) 14... Qe5 15.Rf5 (threatening 16.Rxe5 and 16.Qxh5#) Qxf5 (15... exf5 16.Qxh5+ Kf8 17.Qf7#) 16.exf5 followed by 17.Qxh5 + -.
A.4) 14... Be5 (or 14... Bf8, or 14... Rg8) 15.Qxh5 + - (the discovered check will demolish Black).
B) 13... h6 14.Nxg7+ Kf8 15.Bf6 Rh7 16.Qd2 + -.
C) 13... 0-0 14.Nxg7 Kxg7 15.Bf6+ followed by 16.Qd2 + -.
D) 13... Qe5 14.Nxg7+ followed by 15.Bf6 + -.
E) 13... Be5 14.Nf6+
E.1) 14... Kf8 15.Bh6+ Ke7 16.Bg7 Rd8 17.Qf3 looks disastrous for Black.
E.2) 14... Kd8 (or 14... Ke7) 15.Nd5+ wins the queen.
E.3) 14... Bxf6 15.Bxf6 Rg8 16.Qd2 Ne5 is probably Black's best bet, although after 17.Qf4 d6 18.Bxe5 dxe5 19.Bb5+ Kd8 (19... Bd7 20.Qxf7+) 20.Qxf7 (probably stronger than 20.Qf6+ Qe7 21.Qxe5) Qxf7 21.Rxf7 White will double the rook along the seventh rank with a won endgame.
|Jun-26-09|| ||Utopian2020: Black should have played 14...h6.|
|Jun-26-09|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <CHESSTTCAMPS ...
A.4) 14... h6! 15.Rxg7 (not 15.Qh5? hxg5 16.Qg6 Ne5! 17.Qxg7 Nxf7 Oops!) hxg5 16.Qf3! Rf8 ...
Ahem, instead of <16 ... Rf8>, why not 16 ... Qf4 and it seems that white's attack is gone.
MAJ (at work, with no computer to confirm my idea).
|Jun-26-09|| ||agb2002: I made a mistake in my line A.2.a. After 15... Be5 16.Qxh5 Kd8 I thought that 17.Bg5+ was winning without noticing that the rook was still defended by the bishop on e5. Just another little contribution to the history of blunders...|
|Jun-26-09|| ||Jimfromprovidence: <CHESSTTCAMPS> <White should capitalize on the dark-squared domination and go after the White should capitalize on the dark-squared domination and go after the rook with 14.Nxg7+ Rxg7 15.Bf6 Rg8 16.Qd2 Ne7 17.Qh6 b7 18.Qxh7 Bb7 19.Bxe7 Kxe7 20.Qxf7+.>|
Thanks for responding to my query about what happens after 13…Rg8?!
In your line 14.Nxg7+ Rxg7 15.Bf6 Rg8 16.Qd2, I would try to keep the queen from reaching h6 with 16…g5, offering up that pawn.
click for larger view
Now if 17 Bxg5, then 17…Qa5, attacking the bishop and likely forcing the queen exchange.
click for larger view
|Jun-26-09|| ||beenthere240: In the game above, if 18. Qxa5 Nxa5. which side do you prefer? Material is again equal, white has the 2 bishops, black will have a hard time castling and has doubled d pawns.
In this light 13. Nh5 becomes a positional ploy than can easly turn in to a good attack.|
|Jun-26-09|| ||Once: <solskytz> Nicely put and very wise words!|
The next time I have the draw in hand, I will think of your inspiring post and be more mature than usual. It will mean putting shackles on my inner caveman, but that's probably not a bad thing.
I did read somewhere about the concept of the tactical resignation. Every now and again, in a particularly complicated position, you should sink deep in thought and then cry out "Of course! I see it now! In 24 moves you will win the exchange by the Schlieman-Zukertort tactic. Brilliantly played! I resign."
Plays havoc with your grading, but will impress the whatnots out of your opponent and any onlookers...
|Jun-26-09|| ||CHESSTTCAMPS: <MostlyAverageJoe> <Ahem, instead of <16 ... Rf8>, why not 16 ... Qf4 ...> |
Yes, that cooks the 15.Rxg7 line. It seems that white must take the draw with 15.Bf4 Be5 16.Qh5 as has been discussed. This is a case study on why a strong defensive player can win games by finding moves like 14... h6! (which took me a while to find when I was working through the flawed solution post).
<In your line 14.Nxg7+ Rxg7 15.Bf6 Rg8 16.Qd2, I would try to keep the queen from reaching h6 with 16…g5, offering up that pawn...>
As antipositional as this looks, it is probably the best continuation. In your first diagrammed position, I would consider 17.Qe2 or Qf2, but Chessmaster likes 17.Bb5.
|Jun-26-09|| ||solskytz: (to Once) that makes a very special effect when your opponent refuses to accept your resignation due to the famous schwartzwald - heimlich maneuver, which he sees coming up a few moves later on the same variation. |
I (once) played a tournament game moving nothing but knights for thirty moves, and winding up on the starting position, my opponent (today a FIDE master) doing the same. We simply protested the idea of posing an artificial time limit to the first thirty moves.
During those same thirty moves, knights were put intentionally en prise... but were somehow spiritually immune.
|Jun-26-09|| ||Domdaniel: Exquisite, really. I spent a while understanding that the immediate 13.Rxf7 didn't work, then I noticed that 13.Nh5 made all the difference. Bingo.|
Quite a lot of subvariations in there, though. I can't be certain I'd have seen enough of them in a game to pluck up the courage to play the appropriate moves.
|Jun-26-09|| ||WhiteRook48: I was thinking 13 Rxf7? Kxf7 14 Qf3+ Kg8 15 Rf1 and 16 Bf6. Stupid!|
|Jun-26-09|| ||Fezzik: I usually love working through these positions and then compare my findings with those of others.|
This time, I couldn't "solve" the position and I would not have played Nh5 in the hopes that Black would take both pieces. I saw the luft-inducing move, 14...h6 and tried to make Rf7 work again. (For the player who considered there is only one candidate move, I suggest looking further. Rf7 is the most obvious candidate. And if Nh5 doesn't work, then you'd better start looking for others.)
I couldn't make either work and so gave up on the puzzle (not the position).
I was initially surprised by the game continuation then saw it was played in 1963. This particular position should be awarded 4 stars for its difficulty.
Should White be content with an incorrect sacrifice where she scrambles for a draw against best play
or should she try to find some way to keep the game going?
I have read the comments and what disappoints me is the obvious uncredited use of computers. I don't mind people using computers, and am gratified to see most of the comments. But I don't like seeing people giving themselves credit for turning on a machine.
|Jun-26-09|| ||whiteshark: A nice miniature.|
|Jun-26-09|| ||ROO.BOOKAROO: <Fezzick> You shouldn't worry too much about the use of computers by kibbitzers. They've paid good money, and they're entitled to use their toys. Take any position, and computers will spew out many lines of play, that these kibbitzers will never generate themselves, but can simply copy to bulk up their comments. What difference does it make? None to their career as chess players. Only to their production of prolix kibbitzing, which for effective play OTB is mostly useless. Their brains don't get any real exercise from all this reading and copying. They can line up pages and pages of computer analysis, without getting any real brain workout from all this as it will never develop their anticipation power. On the contrary. It is not worth getting all worked up about it. Let them use their programs. There's no real competition in producing these comments, and no objective rewards. So, what's the big deal?|
|Jun-26-09|| ||Once: There is no right or wrong way to kibitz here. Some folks see it as a competition, a chance to pit their brains against the puzzles and to become stronger OTB players. For these folk, there is nothing to gain from using chess programs (other than to check your analysis afterwards).|
Others see each puzzle as a chance to work out the truth of a position - was the game continuation the best, could the loser have saved the game, and so on. For these folks, the use of computers is perfectly fine.
And some of us, myself included, do it both ways. First we see how far we can get in human mode. Then, and only then, do we fire up the engines to see if we were right or there was something we missed.
And, funnily enough, it's all good. Tolerance, respect, a sense of humour and whatever floats your boat.
|Jun-26-09|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <Fezzik> Strange, I looked back and I don't really see any particularly obvious uncredited computer lines. Or unobvious, for that matter. Well, maybe one, but that's nothing really to get upset about.|
|Jun-26-09|| ||TheBish: N Gaprindashvili vs A Blagidze, 1963|
White to play (13.?) "Difficult"
Material: Black is up a pawn.
Candidate moves: Rxf7, Nh5
13. Rxf7? Kxf7 14. Qf3+ Kg8 15. Rf1 Ne5 and White is lost.
13. Nh5!! aims to weaken the dark squares by eliminating the dark square bishop, or open lines if Black accepts the sacrifice:
A) 13...gxh5 14. Rxf7! Kxf7 (or 14...Be5 15. Qxh5 and Black has no good answer for the threat of discovered check and mate, i.e. 15...Rg8 16. Rg7+ Kf8 17. Qf7#) 15. Qxh5+ Kg8 (or 15...Kf8 16. Rf1+ Bf6 17. Rxf6+ Ke7 18. Rxe6+ Kf8 19. Re8+ Kg7 20. Qh6#) 16. Qe8+ Bf8 17. Rf1 and Black can't meet the threats of both 18. Qxf8# and 18. Qf7#.
B) 13...0-0 14. Nxg7 Kxg7 15. Bf6+ Kg8 16. Qd2 and Black will have to give up the queen to stop 17. Qh6 and 18. Qg7#.
C) 13...Be5 14. Nf6+ Kf8 (or 14...Bxf6 15. Bxf6 Rg8 16. Qd2 and Black is critically weak on the dark squares and his king is stuck in the center) 15. Bh6+ Ke7 16. Qf3 d6 17. Nd5+! (17. Bg7 also wins) exd5 18. Qxf7+ Kd8 19. Bg5+ Ne7 20. Bb5! Bf5 (White was threatening 21. Qf8+ Rxf8 22. Rxf8#) 21. exf5 a6 22. fxg6! axb5 23. g7 Bxg7 24. Qxg7 Re8 25. Rae1 Rxa2 26. Rxe7 Rxe7 27. Rf8+ Kd7 28. Qxe7+ Kc6 29. Qe6! (threatening 30. Rc8) and the winning attack continues.
Time to check.
|May-28-12|| ||vinidivici: waduh nona manis, kamu jago amat sih.
13.Nh5...casual chess player wouldnt think about that. If you think a bit deep, theres nothing hard to finish the line, but like i told before, really needs some experience there to get the line.
|Jun-17-12|| ||GrahamClayton: Nice line clearance sacrifice with 15.♖f5!, clearing the h5-f7 diagonal for a decisive check by the White Queen.|
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