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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 178 OF 235 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Apr-20-10 | | MyCatPlaysChess:  <capa> after Nd5, we should consider alternatives from white like Nxd5, Qf3, Nb5 and others... |
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Apr-20-10
 | | Touch of Knight: Here are some White tries after 25…Nd5 (quick and dirty so please check): <A>
26.Nxd5 Bxd5
27.Rxf7+ Bxf7
(27.Qxd5 Bb4+, and White loses the Queen)
(27.Qf5 Qh4+, and White is under strong attack)
click for larger viewWhite is still under strong attack
<B>
26.Qf3 Qh4+ 27.Kd2 Rg3, does not look good at all for White <C>
26.Qh1 Nxc3
27.bxc3 Qc7
(27.Bxg6 fxg6 28.bxc3 Qc7 29.Bd2 Bg4 30.Rf4 Bxf4 31.exf4 Qe7+ 32.Kf2 Qe2+ 33.Kg3 h5, with strong attack) 28.Bd2 Bg4
29.Be2 Bxe2
30.Kxe2 Qc4+
31.Kd1 Rb2
click for larger viewThis is a very difficult position for White
<D>
26.Bd2 Rxb2
27.Rb1 f5
(27.Ne2 f5 28.Qf3 Bb4 29.Bxb4 Nxb4 30.0-0-0 Nxd3+ 31.Rxd3 Qb6, with strong attack) 28.Qf3 Rxb1+
29.Bxb1 Qh4+
30.Kd1 Rg3
31.Qf2 Nxc3+
32.Bxc3 Qg4+
33.Qe2 Qxe2+
34.Kxe2 Bc4+
click for larger viewThis ought to be winning for Black
<E>
26.Nb5 Nb4
27.Nxd6 Qxd6
28.Ra3 Nxd3+
29.Rxd3 Qg3+
30.Rf2 Bc4
click for larger viewThis looks very good for Black |
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Apr-20-10
 | | capafan: <MCPC><<capa> after Nd5, we should consider alternatives from white like Nxd5, Qf3, Nb5 and others...> Okay I will cheat and start with the easiest.
25...Nd5
26.Nxd5? Bxd5
27.Qf5
[27.Qxd5?? Bg3+]
and now white is subjected to a merciless, withering, unrelenting series of checks... 27...Qh4+
28.Ke2 Rg2+
29.Rf2 Rxf2+
30.Qxf2 Qg4+
31.Kd2 Bb3
32.Bc2 Bb4+
33.Kd3 Qg6+
34.e4 Bxc2+
35.Kxc2 Qxe4+
36.Kd1 Qh1+
37.Kc2 Rc8+
click for larger viewI will let you play the rest out...the above may not be best but it is sufficient. |
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Apr-20-10
 | | chesstoplay:  < Dan > and team,
Dan, your line is really interesting here:
< 25...Nd5 25. Ne2 Bb4+ 27. Kd1 Qc7 28. Qe5+ forces a queen exchange > What about another old standby idea for our move 28 of < 28. Rg1 > ? If we are ahead, we do not want to trade Queens, at least OTB. Or if the team feels we are behind, should we force a Queen trade here? If Rg1 plays out with a Rook trade, Black's King is alone. All of Black's pieces would currently all be on the Queenside. But after their 28. ... RxR, and our 29. NxR, it is Black's turn. Black's Queen can get to our Kingside instantly via g3 or h2. Black could play Nf6: gains a piece to their King and attacks our Queen. So, my questions are:
1. Would Black go down the Rook trade line or work other pieces? 2. If Ne2 is good for us, will Black play Bb4+
You guys know me, I'm pretty much at my limit here.
Please kick this around because it sure feels like Dan is onto something. |
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Apr-20-10
 | | benjinathan: 26.Bd2 also looks crappy:
26.Bd2 f5 27.Qf3 Rxb2 28.0-0-0
black to move
click for larger view |
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Apr-20-10
 | | galumph: In Dan's last line 27... Qc7 is not forced. |
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Apr-20-10
 | | AgentRgent: <Artar1: 25.Bd3 Nd5 26.Qh1 Rg5
<A.> <27.e4>
<B.> <27.Ne4 Rb3>
<C.> <27.Nxd5 Bxd5 28.e4 Bg3+>
<D.> <27.Qe4>What about <E.> <27. Be4> Surely 27... Nxc3 28. bxc3 Qc7 29. Bd2 improves our position despite the passive DSB. 
click for larger viewUnfortunately 27...Nb4 looks worrisome. |
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| Apr-20-10 | | DanLanglois: <chesstoplay: Please kick this around because it sure feels like Dan is onto something.> reasonable queries, I'll add that what I am 'onto', in my view, if it's what you meant? is that 25...Nd5 is Black's best, and fully justifies his play--he's equalized, and may have winning chances. Of course he's down a pawn, but has lots of compensation. We want to tread carefully, and against 25...Nd5, oh yes oh dear we are playing for a draw it's an attitude adjustment, 25. Bd3 may not have been best, but also, our 25th move was a difficult choice as all our alternatives were steadily deteriorating under scrutiny. It's not like we're going to be checkmated, we're up a pawn, Black has 'too much' activity, but there's not much pawns left, we just can't afford to be too cavalier, we want a draw. |
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| Apr-20-10 | | DanLanglois: <chesstoplay: < Dan > and team, Dan, your line is really interesting here:
< 25...Nd5 25. Ne2 Bb4+ 27. Kd1 Qc7 28. Qe5+ forces a queen exchange > What about another old standby idea for our move 28 of < 28. Rg1 > ?> I guess I like it, as it exchanges another piece, after 28...Rxg1 29. Nxg1 and after 29...Qg3 we still get to exchange queens 30. Qe5+ Qxe5 31. dxe5 
click for larger viewIt's not that I'm really worried about Black winning this, as much as I figure Black can push a pawn to the 7th rank (he's set w/this plan on the kinside) and crow that he 'almost had us'. Oh well. |
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Apr-20-10
 | | WinKing: <Touch of Knight: Here are some White tries after 25…Nd5 (quick and dirty so please check):> Your analysis looks pretty good. In your variation <C> where you have: <<C>26.Qh1 Nxc3
27.bxc3 Qc7
(27.Bxg6 fxg6 28.bxc3 Qc7 <29.Bd2> Bg4 30.Rf4 Bxf4 31.exf4 Qe7+ 32.Kf2 Qe2+ 33.Kg3 h5, with strong attack)> There is also <29.Kd2> besides <29.Bd2> in your sub variation that starts with 27.Bxg6 but it looks good for black also I believe: 25...Nd5
26.Qh1 Nxc3
27.Bxg6 fxg6
28.bxc3 Qc7
<29.Kd2> Rb3
30.Qe4 Qxc3+
31.Kd1 <31.Ke2 Bc4+)> 31...Bb4
32.Ke2 Bc4+
33.Kf2 Bd6
34.Ra2 Rb8
35.Re2 Rf8+ <and black is winning> 
click for larger viewThis is a pretty much forced line if white plays 29.Kd2. I am still checking for any possible holes in the analysis or something that has been overlooked but it looks pretty good so far. Nice job <ToK>. :) |
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| Apr-20-10 | | DanLanglois: a bit more maundering about how did we get into this situation? We've been outplayed? Thought we were winning? We Sacked a piece, check, that was supposed to be advantageous. <15.Ndxe4 dxe4 16.Qxe4+ Kf8 17.Qg2 Rg8 > 16...Kf8 was not expected, but not apparently any kind of big deal, 17...Rg8 was more of a surprise (but not totally). Black was playing, in this line, to give the piece back. 18.f3 Rxg5 19.fxg4 Rxg4 material equality is restored. Well. This was a pretty good plan 4 Black. And, 20.Qf3 Rg6 21.Be2 Bg4 22.Qxb7 puts us up a pawn, but Black gets compensation. Again, a good plan. We've not been supposing, in this, that we were getting an edge. Things haven't changed that much after Rb8 23.Qe4 Be6 24.Rf1 Kg7 25.Bd3. We still don't think we have an edge. We're still up a pawn. The debate over the 25th move turned up some pretty nasty dangerous potholes for *White* to avoid, however. Such as, 25. Bd2 (2nd in the voting) Nc4 26. d5 terrible 4 White. 24...Kg7 was apparently Black's best, but we knew that, it's a little demoralizing that Black played it. We're not out of their league. And now, 25...Nd5 looks best, White can err *badly* w/26. Qh1 Nxc3(!) for example--looks like disaster: 
click for larger viewa good exchange sacrifice for Black, which at first we didn't see. W/25...Nd5 Black is more than fine, we are avoiding traps. Doesn't mean we've actually erred in this game. 25. Bd3 was I suppose the most questionable move, but that's a pretty difficult question--let's just say that 24...Kg7 was quite strong, along w/Black's whole game so far. He's just as happy sacking material as we are, that was his route to equality, and w/25...Nd5 26. Ne2 White, although up a pawn, is under considerable pressure as he's not developed: 
click for larger viewFrom here we're currently supposing 26...Bb4+(!) 27. Kd1 Qc7 28. Rg1 (or 28. Qe5+ forcing the queen exchange) 28...Rxg1 29. Nxd1 Qg3 30. Qe5+ forcing the queen exchange & we limp to a draw. |
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Apr-20-10
| | capafan: ...small errors by white from this point forward could prove very costly. IMHO white should be scurrying to find a draw. Given the brief lines presented this is not an easy task despite their small material superiority. The principal issue for black is to find a way to convert our space and mobility advantage to a win. Tactics or strategy? Over the board, this is often a 50-50 proposition with time either an ally or foe. In correspondence chess, long-term strategy and patience are more the deciding virtues. We should keep this in mind as well as the following. Not that I am the best chess strategist, but these are some of the questions I ask myself. How best to proceed given small errors by white (which I believe Bd3 qualifies as)? Do trades as a rule benefit white or black?
Is the fact that Qs are still on the board favoring white or black? If particular trades benefit either side (e.g. maintaining the bishop pair) what are those trades and who do they benefit the most? White is essentially playing the game two pieces down with the WQR and WDSB undeveloped. How could white safely unwind his position and complete development? How then can black react and keep black bottled up?
Are there sacrifices (such as that of the exchange) that could benefit either side? Are the connected central pawns still an issue to be dealt with by black? What are the circumstances wherein the connected white central pawns could become an issue? If black were to rely necessarily on the promotion of one of his pawns to win the game, which pawn would it be and what pieces might be better than the others to retain to assist the pawn in its efforts. Whose king is more secure? What could either side do to increase the safety of their king. Of the variations presented, which are more likely to contain subtleties to which the answers to the above might apply? This is only one such list, I am sure others may have their own list or manner in which to analyze. |
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Apr-20-10
| | WinKing: <capafan: ...small errors by white from this point forward could prove very costly. IMHO white should be scurrying to find a draw. Given the brief lines presented this is not an easy task despite their small material superiority. The principal issue for black is to find a way to convert our space and mobility advantage to a win. Tactics or strategy? Over the board, this is often a 50-50 proposition with time either an ally or foe. In correspondence chess, long-term strategy and patience are more the deciding virtues. We should keep this in mind as well as the following. Not that I am the best chess strategist, but these are some of the questions I ask myself. How best to proceed given small errors by white (which I believe Bd3 qualifies as)?> I think white may be in a bit of a bind here <capafan>. You may be right that Bd3 was an inaccuracy on white's part. Perhaps they underestimated ...Nd5 as a response...or they see something we don't. We must proceed with cautious optimism. :) |
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Apr-20-10
 | | blue wave: Wouldn't 27... Nxc3 28. bxc3 strengthen our pawn cover for our king? If this is a disaster I'm missing something. |
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| Apr-20-10 | | Artar1: <AgentRgent:> What about <E.> <27. Be4> <Surely 27... Nxc3 28. bxc3 Qc7 29. Bd2 improves our position despite the passive DSB. Unfortunately 27...Nb4 looks worrisome.> I would not play <27...Nxc3>. Black is still down a pawn, and making exchanges that do not lead to a distinct advantage for the second player only helps White's defensive posture. Like you said, <27...Nb4> is more worrisome for White because it places the Black knight on a very useful square that controls c2 and d3 and limits the White king's flight options on the queenside. |
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Apr-20-10
| | capafan: <WinKing><or they see something we don't. We must proceed with cautious optimism. :)> Always an issue that troubles me no matter how much I look at the position. After all, it is white that played the original novelty. If I could hazard a guess, after we played Rg8 it seem white has been somewhat back on their heels. I am sure Be6 did little to change this. I will, like you say, be optimistically cautious. Healthy skepticism is hardly ever unwarranted. :) |
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Apr-20-10
| | blue wave: Can we just exchange if 25...Nd5 26.Nxd5? |
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| Apr-20-10 | | Artar1: <blue wave: Can we just exchange if 25...Nd5 26.Nxd5?> White doesn't get a terrible game as a result of the exchange. See my post below, section C. |
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| Apr-20-10 | | Artar1: If it's any consolation, <25...Nc4> looks like the natural move, and I'm sure many on the Black team will vote for it. Playing <25...Nd5> does look like a mistake at first glance. I only stumbled upon it by accident. Like <Dan>, I, too, thought it was weak until I let the move stand on the board and tried to make something of it for the second player. I guess we'll know soon enough. |
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| Apr-21-10 | | ronpaz1: did any one checked 25.Bd3 Nd5 26.Qh1 Nb4?
the exchange sacrifice looks dangerous for us |
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| Apr-21-10 | | Artar1: <ronpaz1: Did any one check <25.Bd3 Nd5 26.Qh1 Nb4?> The exchange sacrifice looks dangerous for us.> <25.Bd3 Nd5 26.Qh1 Nb4 27.Bxg6 fxg6 28.Kd2> 
click for larger viewThe above sequence of moves does not appear overly toxic for White during the middlegame. However, the question we need to ask is how troublesome will Black’s connected pawns on the kingside be in the endgame, and will they be more potent than White’s connected center pawns? Even though White is up the exchange, it would be important for White not to trade pieces too quickly, leading to a king-and-pawn endgame. Should Black achieve a better (i.e., more advanced) king position in such an endgame, White could be in trouble. |
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| Apr-21-10 | | DanLanglois: <Artar1: <blue wave: Can we just exchange if 25...Nd5 26.Nxd5?> White doesn't get a terrible game as a result of the exchange. See my post below, section C.> actually, I think that White gets a terrible game w/this. 'Section C' refers to <25.Bd3 Nd5 26.Qh1 Rg5 27. Nxd5>; this is also busted--by 26...Nxc3. Here's the deal w/26...Nxc3:
click for larger viewMaybe give it a moment to sink in, how very bad this is. White's king is vulnerable. After 27. bxc3 (goof around w/27. Bxg6, if you like losing that way better) Qc7 28. Bd2 Bg4 
click for larger viewit's getting very hot in here. |
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| Apr-21-10 | | DanLanglois: After 25...Nd5 26. Ne2, White is in full retreat, likely to lose material, but quite likely to be able to draw. It's not pretty by any means. |
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Apr-21-10
 | | OhioChessFan: Can someone ease my mind on 25...Nd5 26. Qf3 Qh4+ 27. Kd2 Rg3 28. Qe4 
click for larger viewI always want to play Qh2+ and Bb4+ but then I see a lot of lines where White makes the pseudo sac Rxf7+ followed by Qf4+ and Qxg8. Meanwhile, our King is really airy and there are some perpetual issues. |
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Apr-21-10
| | capafan: <OCF>How about this one... 25...Nd5
26. Qf3 Qh4+
27. Kd2 Rg3
28. Qe4 Qh2+
29. Ke1 Nf6
[if 29. Be2/Ne2 <Rxe3+>] [maybe the BLSB is best left to defend f7]
click for larger view |
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sac: 18...Rxg5