< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·
|Nov-25-09|| ||psmith: Actually, I think that's not right. I will investigate further, but I think Black is winning in the line I just gave. (By the way, I solved the puzzle up to Bxd1 but didn't see the mating possibilities.)|
|Nov-25-09|| ||johnlspouge: < <JG27Pyth> wrote: Oh, and if I'm not mistaken, this is a "perfect mate" with each mate square covered once and once only. (Has this been pointed out already? Is my definition correct?) >|
There is a model mate and an ideal mate, (see http://spouge.net/html.home/chess/i...), but a perfect mate is something else entirely (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfec...).
|Nov-25-09|| ||psmith: I don't have time to analyze this further, but examination with Fritz 5.32 seems to show that Black is much better at least after 14. Kc4 Be6+ 15. d5 Nxd5!|
|Nov-25-09|| ||carelessfills: <JG27Pyth: Oh, and if I'm not mistaken, this is a "perfect mate" with each mate square covered once and once only. (Has this been pointed out already? Is my definition correct?)?|
You are almost correct but not precise. I'd add that each of the King's escape squares can only be covered either by an opponent's piece or blocked by a friendly piece exactly one way, but not both.
In this case, since e3 qnd d4 are blocked by white's pawns, and are not covered by any black piece, so it is still a perfect mate, as you surmise.
|Nov-25-09|| ||VincentL: I did not solve this.
I looked at 10.... gxf3 straight away, but the variations after 11. Qf3 looked long for a Wednesday - so I then looked for a different first move.
After 11..... Qxh4+ 12. g3 Nxd3 13. hxg3 Bxg3+ 14. Kd2
Now 14.....Bg4 15. Rxh4 Bxf3 16. Rh3 Rg8 17. Rxh6 and white is down a bishop for a pawn.
14.....Qg5 15. Rg1 Rg8 16.Bc4
Black wins in these lines, but I was loooking for something more immediately decisive.
|Nov-25-09|| ||VincentL: <gofer> has 12.... Qe7 in my line above, which is much better.|
I think I was half asleep when I looked at this.
|Nov-25-09|| ||Patriot: <VincentL> Sleep deprivation will do it to ya! There's no need to complicate matters after 10...gxf3 11.Qxf3 Qxh4+ 12.g3. 12...Qe7 is good enough!|
|Nov-25-09|| ||Jimfromprovidence: There is an alternative solution as well, as white can feasibly play 11 Bf2 instead of 11 Bxd8. (Kudos to <agb2002>). |
We now have all forcing moves. 11...Nxf2 12 Kxf2 Qh4+ g3 13 Bxg3+! 14 hxg3 Qxh1, wins nicely.
click for larger view
|Nov-25-09|| ||YouRang: Well, the move I missed was 13...Nb4+!
I settled for 13...Bxd1 14.Kxe4 Kxd8 and I'm up a piece, I've got a pawn on the 7th rank, and white's king running around naked.
It should be good for a few laughs before I win.
|Nov-25-09|| ||patzer2: White's decisive mistake was of course 10. Bh4?? Instead, 10. Nfd2 Nxf2 11. Kxf2 Qg5 12. g3 avoids immediate loss and gives some drawing chances.|
|Nov-25-09|| ||chrisowen: Not too over easy but the test i see of the nice queen sac is whether gxf3 nips it in the bud. Walter will flag with Bh4 as from pole to
pole the g pawn's journey sinks the white king. The man of black is streaks ahead, only Nfd2 puts him back on track.|
|Nov-25-09|| ||xrt999: < zb2cr: Found this one easily. I have nothing to add to the comments by <zooter>, <dzechiel>, <Fomula7>, <SamAtoms1980>, <WhenHarryMetSally>, <agb2002>, and <TheaN>.>|
I also have nothing to add, with the exception that I have nothing to add.
|Nov-25-09|| ||antharis: 10... gxf3! for sure.
If 11. Bxd8 f2+ 12. Ke2 Bg4#.
And after 11. gxf3 or 11. Qxf3 then 11... Qxh4+ starts a forceful attack and wins two minor pieces additionally.
Nice but simple combination. Took me only a few seconds.
|Nov-25-09|| ||jussu: I must admit that I didn't see the mate, saw as far as 13... Bxd1 with an extra piece. Not that I have anything to add.|
|Nov-25-09|| ||antharis: <If 11. Bxd8 f2+ 12. Ke2 Bg4#.> |
Oops. I see now 12... Bg4+ isnt a mate sorry. ^_^
|Nov-25-09|| ||FSR: For me, knowing Imbaud vs Strumilo, 1922 made this combination easy to find. It's a very similar motif - allowing the other side to play BxQ; playing a diagonal check on KB7; then BN5+, driving the king to Q3; then a knight check allowing the king to take the other knight on the king's K4 square; then P-KB4+ (here mate), supported by the B on N5.|
|Nov-25-09|| ||Quentinc: Because this is a puzzle, I "knew" immediately that gxf3 had to work, which always makes it easier to work out the solution.|
Also, I found it fairly easy to visualize it through 13..Nb4+, and I'm not usually so good at visualizing many moves ahead. I think the fact that most of the pieces are still in their original positions makes it much easier.
|Nov-25-09|| ||remolino: 10...gxf3 leading to mate or to winning back the queen and coming ahead a piece. Time to check.|
|Nov-25-09|| ||WhiteRook48: no! I missed it!|
|Nov-25-09|| ||muralman: I got A to Z on this one. The first move pawn takes night excited me, because I knew I would loose my queen in the matter. It all seemed so Fisheresque. That allowed the second move pawn checks king. That digs the king out and allows yet another check by my light square bishop. I have to admit, I had to really think hard on the next move. I wanted to check with one of my knights, but which one? And then, taking the queen was also needling me. I pondered both knight moves, until finally I saw the pawn checkmate. Yay!!!!|
|Nov-25-09|| ||Smothered Mate: Hiarcs 12.1 d=20
(+9.71) 13... Nb4+ 14. Kc4 Bxd1 15. Na3 Bg4 16. Kb3 Kxd8 17. Nb5 Be7 18. a4 a5 19. h3 Be6+
(+3.49) 13... Bxd1 14. Kxe4 Rxd8 15. Bb5 Bh5 16. Kd3 0-0 17. Kd2 Nb4 18. c3 Nd5 19. Rf1 c6
|Nov-26-09|| ||TheBish: W Fried vs Schlechter, 1897|
Black to play (10...?) "Medium/Easy"
Black is down a pawn, which makes sense, since this was a From's Gambit (noticed the header when it popped up). It looks like White's last move must have been 10. Bf2-h4 after 9...g4.
One of the first things you want to look for here are captures, even ones that apparently give up the queen! Especially when there are interesting follow-up moves! In this case, 10...gxf3 11. Bxd8 is a sham sacrifice, since Black wins the queen back with interest.
10...gxf3! 11. Bxd8
White obviously has no choice now. There's no turning back!
11...f2+ 12. Ke2 Bg4+ 13. Kd3
These moves have all been forced. Now White can win a piece with 13...Bxd1, since Black's bishop on d8 is hanging (14. Kxe4 Bxc2+ 15. Bd3 Bxd3+ 16. Kxd3 Rxd8), but he has even better! (When you see a good move, look for a better one!)
This greedy move wins more than a piece! If now 14. Kxe4 f5 mate! So White's next move is forced.
14. Kc4 Bxd1
It's time to finally take the queen, since 14...Be6+? 15. d5! and not only is there no mate, but Black would have to play like a computer to win this! I assumed that Black was just losing a piece after 15...Bxd5+ 16. Qxd5 (forced to stop the mate) Nxd5 17. Kxd5, but I just put this on Fritz, and the silicon "beast" came up with 15...Nxd5! 16. Kd3 Rxd8! and Black is slightly better, despite having only two pieces for the queen, due to his active pieces.
15. Na3 Bg4 16. Bxc7
Or 16. Bh4 Be6+ 17. Kb5 a6+ 18. Ka4 b5+ and White will have to give up another piece to stop the mate.
16...Rc8 17. Nb5 Be6+ 18. d5 Bxd5+ 19. Kd4 Bc5+ 20. Ke5 f6+ 21. Kf4 Nxc2 22. Rd1 Nxe3 and Black has an overwhelming material advantage plus a continued attack on the king.
|Nov-26-09|| ||Once: <johnlspouge: I stated a view on excessive calculation in V Okhotnik vs V Berezhnoi, 1981, and today's puzzle is a superb example of what I was talking about.>|
John, I think I mostly agree with you. In a real game, we often don't need to calculate everything. Indeed, I made much the same point in Nezhmetdinov vs Kotkov, 1957.
But there are situations when you do need to calculate a line which is 4 or 5 moves deep, or sometimes more. And then I find that the horizon effect kicks in ... the longer the variation goes on, we all start to lose track of where pieces are. Some players can also lose track of the material balance (what Dan Heissman calls "counting"). How many games are lost because of the move that comes right at the end of a combination? Or forgetting that you are actually a piece or pawn down?
Granted, in this puzzle you don't need to see all the way to mate because grabbing the white queen is enough to win. But as an exercise to practice a vital skill it can be quite useful to counter the horizon effect and improve counting.
I suppose it comes down to your reason for being here. Some folks like to analyse to the nth degree to expose the "truth" of a position. These guys go for the long lines and exhaustive analysis. Some folk like to extract just enough to work out what they would play in a game. And for these exhaustive analysis is not so important - once they have got to a winning position, they stop.
And some folk come to learn, which probably puts them halfway between the two extremes. I tend to flip between all three modes, depending on mood, day of the week and how much time I have before jumping in the car for the commute to work.
And I suppose it doesn't really matter. Whether your boat is floated by exhaustive analysis or just-enough pragmatism, it's all good.
|May-23-11|| ||Llawdogg: Wow! Schlechter sacrificed two pawns, his queen, and a knight for a spectacular checkmate. Brilliant.|
|Jul-30-12|| ||Llawdogg: This should be "Schlechter's Immortal."|
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