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Later Kibitzing> |
| Nov-27-11 | | rilkefan: Oops, ...Bc6 - so make that pushes the e pawn and exchanges queens. |
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| Nov-27-11 | | rilkefan: <Snehalshekatkar>, try 52.g4, or more simply 52.Rc8 Bc4 53.Rxc4 dxc4 54.Qc4, though I guess I won't swear there's no perpetual in the latter line. Black does need to take care that he doesn't allow e.g. Qd3+ with the white king on c2 after Qxe3. |
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| Nov-27-11 | | Madman99X: I could look at this puzzle for days. After looking at the kibitzing, 45... Ra2 ?! 46. Qxa2 Qf3 47. Rc8! Kh7 48. Ra8, best appears to be not my Qh1, but 48... Qf1+ 49. Kf2 Bc2 after which my Rybka says 50. Qa6 Bxb3. 
click for larger viewAt 24 ply, Rybka gives the best move as 51. Rd8 +2.16. 51. Qe2 +2.05 also looks interesting. The position above looks difficult, but white is the exchange up with a passed pawn, and to my educated (but certainly not expert) eye should be able to win. |
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Nov-27-11
 | | Snehalshekatkar: <rilkefan>, Though it will take some time for me to analyze according to your suggestion, one thing is clear that after black's rook sacrifice, white doesn't have immediate winning chances avoiding perpetual check.. |
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Nov-27-11
 | | numbersguy70: Those who are posting that Ra2 was a blunder or that the puzzle is flawed are ignoring (either by over-use of computers or otherwise) the hidden complexities of chess. Black is technically lost, but a move that forces white to find one very deep obscure line (starting with Rc8) to avoid a draw is hardly a blunder. |
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Nov-27-11
 | | sethoflagos: <Madman99X: I could look at this puzzle for days.> Ditto. Excellent puzzle.
I managed to squeeze a result for white against Fritz Seth - Fritz 12
120m/40+60m/20+30m
45...Ra2 46.Qxa2 Qf3 47.Rc8+ Kh7 48.Ra8 Qd1+ 49.Kf2 Bc2 50.Qa6 Bxb3
click for larger viewHere I took the 51.Qf1 alternative
51.Qf1 Qc2+ 52.Qe2 Qc3 53.Rd8 Bc4 54.Qe1 Qb2+ 55.Kg1 Qa2 
click for larger view56.Rd7 picks up the pawn f7 but ends in a drawn game (I think) 56.g4 Bd3 57.Qf2 Qb3 58.h3 Be4 59.Rd7 f6 60.Kh2 Qxb4 61.Kg3 Qb5 62.Rc7 f5 63.Rc3 Qb4 64.Qd2 fxg4 65.hxg4 Qa4 66.Rc7 Qa1 67.Qf2 Qb1 68.Rc8 Qb7 69.Rc1 Qb8 70.Ra1 Qb3 71.Qd2 Qb5 72.Ra7 Qf1 73.Qf2 Qb5 74.Ra2 Qc4 
click for larger viewAt last I can get f5 in
75.f5 Qc6 76.Kh4 Bb1 77.Ra7 Qb6 78.Ra8 Qc6 79.Rf8 Bd3 80.Kh3 Qc1 81.g5 hxg5 82.Qh2 Qc6 
click for larger viewExit queens
83.Kg4+ Qh6 84.Qxh6+ gxh6 85.Rf7+ Kg8 86.Rd7 Be2+ 87.Kg3 Bc4 88.f6 Be2 89.Rxd5 Kf7 90.Rd6 Kg6 91.e4 h5 92.e5 h4+ 93.Kg2 Bc4 94.Rd7 Ba2 95.Re7 Bc4 96.Kh2 Bd5 97.f7 Bxf7 98.e6 Bg8 99.Re8 1–0 
click for larger viewFritz calls it a day. Hard work! |
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| Nov-27-11 | | Yodaman: Upon reading through most of the kibitzing, I must admit that I did not solve the puzzle after all. Like black in the game I thought that 47.Ra8 was the only way to save the rook and so I thought white was forced to that. I saw that that move led to a draw by perpetual check. But, it looks like white has better defenses, and the kibitzers have yet to find a conclusive draw for black. If anything, white might actually be able to survive for the win. |
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Nov-27-11
 | | Patriot: <numbersguy70> <Those who are posting that Ra2 was a blunder or that the puzzle is flawed are ignoring (either by over-use of computers or otherwise) the hidden complexities of chess. Black is technically lost, but a move that forces white to find one very deep obscure line (starting with Rc8) to avoid a draw is hardly a blunder.> I couldn't agree with you more! It's not an easy line to find and happens to be the only winning line. Computers go by numerical evaluation and they will accept the move that is best for them numerically. But going from "lost" to "dead lost" isn't a bad idea if it offers a glimmer of hope. So in my opinion, 45...Ra2 is the only move to consider--not 45...Qe6 as Houdini suggested, which is "lost". |
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| Nov-27-11 | | Yodaman: <sethoflagos> Excellent job! I just played through your win on a board and must say, I am impressed! You get full credit for solving the super-insane mate in 50+ 46.? puzzle. Thanks for sharing it with us. Your moves from 66 to 74 are way over my head. |
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Nov-27-11
| | sethoflagos: <Yodaman: .... Your moves from 66 to 74 are way over my head.> It's just me trying to get in f5 and attack g7 while Fritz threatens to crunch my rook with a check fork. More ping-pong than chess. Thanks anyway |
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Nov-27-11
 | | moronovich: <In the end we decided that we really don't know the proper assessment of 45...Ra2 but decided it was a "Sunday move" regardless of where the jury rests.> Brilliant reasoning ! |
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Nov-27-11
 | | OhioChessFan: <Seth's line: 45...Ra2 46.Qxa2 Qf3 47.Rc8+ Kh7 48.Ra8 Qd1+ 49.Kf2 Bc2 50.Qa6 Bxb3
51.Qf1 Qc2+ 52.Qe2 Qc3 53.Rd8 Bc4 54.Qe1 Qb2+ 55.Kg1 Qa2 56.g4 Bd3 57.Qf2 Qb3 > 57...Qb1+ has got to be better.
eg 57...Qb1+ 58. Kg2 Qxb4 bye bye passer and I think Black has made it much tougher for White in practical terms to win this. 
click for larger view |
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Nov-27-11
| | OhioChessFan: <Seth's line: 45...Ra2 46.Qxa2 Qf3 47.Rc8+ Kh7 48.Ra8 Qd1+ 49.Kf2 Bc2 50.Qa6 Bxb3 51.Qf1 Qc2+ 52.Qe2 Qc3 53.Rd8 Bc4 54.Qe1 Qb2+ 55.Kg1 Qa2 56.g4 Bd3 57.Qf2 Qb3 58.h3 Be4 59.Rd7 f6 > 59..f6 is a waste of a tempo. Why not f5 to begin with? If 60. gxf5, White has 2 Pawn islands. If 60. Kh2 as in the game, Black hasn't wasted a future tempo pushing from f6 to f5. |
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| Nov-27-11 | | ajile: Um I got the main moves but missed the 47.Rc8+ idea. I thought I was clever to notice that in the game after White's king goes to b2 White must stay on the light squared diagonal f1-a6 to be able to maintain the perpetual checks. For example: 51.Kc1 Qe1+ 52.Kb2 Qd2+?? loses since after 53.Ka3 Black runs out of checks. Black must play 52..Qe2+ to maintain the perpetual. |
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Nov-27-11
| | sethoflagos: sethoflagos: <OhioChessFan: ...
57...Qb1+ has got to be better.>
b4 is dead meat anyway. I think Fritz was eyeing Qd1+ Kg2 Qxg4+ so I play h3 In your diagramme d5 is en prise and black must hang onto that one (though Rxd5?? Be4+ noted) <59..f6 is a waste of a tempo> I thought so too. But I should have played 59.f5 and saved a lot of messing abou |
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Nov-27-11
| | OhioChessFan: <seth: b4 is dead meat anyway. > Yes, I later noticed your line to move 99 took care of that too. It's probably worse for White to try to hold on to it than just let Black spend a move capturing it. I think we both have to talk in generalities because neither man nor silicon beast can play this end game perfectly. |
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Nov-27-11
 | | agb2002: Black has a bishop for a rook and a pawn.
White threatens to push the passed pawn.
There seems to be a possibility of perpetual if the white queen is diverted from f3. Therefore, 45... Ra2: A) 46.Qxa2 Qf3
A.1) 47.Ra1 Qh1+ 48.Kf2 Qxh2+ 49.Kf1 Qh1+ 50.Ke2 Qg2+ 51.Kd1 Qf1+ 52.Kd2 Qf2+ A.1.a) 53.Kc3 Qxe3+ 54.Kb2 Qe2+ 55.Ka3 Qa6+ 56.Kb2 Qe2+ 57.Kc1 Qe1+ draw. A.1.b) 53.Kc1 Qe1+ 54.Kb2 Qe2+ is similar to A.1.a.
A.2) 47.Qb2 is similar to A.1 except that the king can't go to c3 because of ... Qxe3#. A.3) 47.Qd2 Qh1+ and perpetual follows.
A.4) 47.Rb2 is similar to A.2.
B) 46.Rb2 Rxb2 47.Qxd2 Qf3 48.Qd2 is similar to A.3.
C) 46.Qf1 Qh5 (worse is 46... Rg2+ 47.Qxg2 (47.Kh1 Rxg3+ and mate next) 47... Bxg2 48.Kxg2 Qe2+ 49.Kg1 followed by 50.Rcb1 and b5 if the black queen doesn't move to b5) 46... Qh5 47.h3 (47.h4 Qg4 48.Qe1 Qh3 - +) 47... Bf5 48.e4 Bxh3 seems to win. |
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Nov-27-11
| | agb2002: I considered 46.Rc8+ but not 47.Ra8.
Although 45... Ra2 is probably losing, it is surely the best practical option in a real game. Other moves, like 45... Qe6, might be objectively stronger but they hardly make sense in either a puzzle like this or a real game. |
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| Nov-27-11 | | Magic Castle: I saw Ra2 and after that move I tried to look for a win by black. But since I cannot find any after several tries, I just gave up not even thinking that the solution is a draw. I hate puzzles with a draw outcome because I love to play for a win. This mind set caused me to lose a lot of games which I could have drawn. |
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| Nov-27-11 | | stst: looks simple to me...
45....Ra2
IF (A)46.QxR Qf4 eyeing h1 no defense
IF (B)46.Qf1 Qh5 eyeingxh2, 47.h4 Bg2
48.Qe1 Qf3, 49.Rc3 Bh3, 50.e4 Qh1#
maybe something big is overlooked... |
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Nov-27-11
 | | RandomVisitor: Black missed 31...Nf3+ with a roughly equal game. White missed 22.Ne1! 1: Igor Naumkin - Eduardas Rozentalis, Vilnius 1988
click for larger viewAnalysis by Rybka 4.1 x64:
[+0.90] d=25 22.Ne1 Rc4 23.Nd3 Bd6 24.b3 Rc6 25.Bg2 Ne4 26.b4 Rcc8 27.Qa1 Bf8 28.Nf4 Ndf6 29.Bh3 Rc7 30.Nxe4 Nxe4 31.Be5 Rxc1 32.Rxc1 Qa8 33.Qd4 a5 34.b5 |
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| Nov-27-11 | | mohannagappan: 45. ..Ra2 i got it first time in insane puzzle |
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Nov-28-11
 | | HeMateMe: It's not that hard to find the first move here. The white Queen has to be deflected off the f file, so black can connect the Q + B battery. I rejected the actual game move, because I thought the correct answer forced a win. I was thinking of something like h5-h4, to open up the dangerous h1 square for black's Queen. |
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| Nov-28-11 | | erniecohen: <<chessgames.com>In the end we decided that we really don't know the proper assessment of 45...Ra2 but decided it was a "Sunday move" regardless of where the jury rests.> That's a curious assessment. What makes a puzzle difficult is when there are multiple candidates, or many variations to follow up on. Here, the combination itself is really just 2 moves, with no variations and no real combinative alternatives, making it far easier to find than even most Friday moves. |
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Nov-28-11
 | | gawain: Oh, I saw 45...Ra2 but I mistakenly thought this was winning after the followup 46... Qf3. Oops. |
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