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Magnus Carlsen vs Vladimir Kramnik
Corus (2010)  ·  Catalan Opening: Open Defense (E04)  ·  0-1
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Given 31 times; par: 50 [what's this?]

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 13 OF 13 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Feb-09-10  Hesam7: <RotH: [FireBird 1.0 w32b: 18.Rfd1 Bb7 19.Nh4 Qc7 20.Bxd5 Bxd5 21.Rxd5 Ne5 22.axb4 axb4 23.f4 Ng6 24.Nf5 c4 25.e4 Rfe8 26.Kg2 Bf8 27.Qe2 Qa7 28.Rd4 0.79/21 ] About 20 minutes.. FireBird does not suggest 18..d4>

I always assumed that 18. ... d4 was forced.

Also thanks for introducing me to FireBird! The 1.01 version is already out!

Feb-09-10
Premium Chessgames Member
  Eyal: <FireBird does not suggest 18..d4> No, I suppose most engines don't suggest 18...d4 after they go deep enough to realize what's happening after that; this is the critical move, though, since if Black just has to give up the d-pawn as in the line above it's clear that his strategy has failed (or that White's strategy with 17.d5 has succeeded - see Kramnik's presentation of the game), and that White has a big advantage, even if it's not a forced win.

<Still I think 18. Rfd1 d4 19. Qf5 Bd6 20. axb4 Bxe2 21. bxc5 Bxd1 22. Rxd1 Nxc5 23. Nxd4 is a better try for win.> after 23...Qe8 (getting out of the pin on the d-file, attacking Na4) I don't see White getting a position as nearly as good as after 23.Rxd4.

Feb-09-10  Atking: <since if Black just has to give up the d-pawn as in the line above it's clear that his strategy has failed (or that White's strategy with 17.d5 has succeeded> Why you don't go further? At move 15...Qb8! as i noted up. It seems to me that black is ok with his doubled pawn on king side.
Feb-09-10  Hesam7: After 18. Rfd1:


click for larger view

FireBird 1.01 gives the following line at depth 22 (that would be two plys deeper than <RotH>'s post):

18. ... Bb7 19. Nh4 Qc7 20. Bxd5 Ne5 21. axb4 Bxd5 22. Rxd5 axb4 23. f4 Ng6 24. Nf5 c4 25. e4 Rfe8 26. Nxe7+ Qxe7 27. Nb6 Rb8 28. Nd7 Rbd8 29. Rad1 Nf8 30. Nb6 Rb8 31. Nxc4 Qxe4 32. Qb3 Qe7 33. Qa4 Ra8 34. Qb5 (+0.78)

Feb-09-10
Premium Chessgames Member
  Eyal: <Why you don't go further? At move 15...Qb8! as i noted up.>

Because we're discussing the critical position arrived at after 17...exd5... no one said that Black's position is already bad at move 15 or that he doesn't have other options at this stage (and btw 15...Qb8 is indeed noted as a good move by Lebedev in his analysis - see the crestbook link posted by <polarmis>).

Feb-09-10  Hesam7: <Eyal: <FireBird does not suggest 18..d4> No, I suppose most engines don't suggest 18...d4 after they go deep enough to realize what's happening after that;>

FireBird wanted to play 18. ... d4 for a long time and only when it reached depth 19 it switched to 18. ... Bb7.

<Eyal: this is the critical move, though, since if Black just has to give up the d-pawn as in the line above it's clear that his strategy has failed (or that White's strategy with 17.d5 has succeeded - see Kramnik's presentation of the game), and that White has a big advantage, even if it's not a forced win.>

I understand that playing 18. ... Bb7 would be psychologically difficult (I have not seen a human even mention it) but that has nothing to do with its objective evaluation. As for the magnitude of White's advantage after 18. ... Bb7 19. Nh4 Qc7 20. Bxd5 Ne5 21. axb4 Bxd5 22. Rxd5 axb4:


click for larger view

White is better but I would not say he has a big advantage let alone a winning one.

Feb-09-10  Hesam7: <Atking: <since if Black just has to give up the d-pawn as in the line above it's clear that his strategy has failed (or that White's strategy with 17.d5 has succeeded> Why you don't go further? At move 15...Qb8! as i noted up. It seems to me that black is ok with his doubled pawn on king side.>

Almost everybody (Kasparov on one side of spectrum and me on the other!) has zoomed in on the evaluation of 18. Rfd1.

15. ... Qb8 is an interesting option as well. The point is that after 16. O-O Qb5 Black is threatening ... b3 and so White is forced to take on b4.


click for larger view

15. ... Qb8 16.0-0 Qb5 17.axb4 Qxe2 18.Qxe2 Bxe2 19.Rfe1 Bxf3 20.Bxf3 Bxb4 21.Rec1 Nb8 22.Bxc6 Nxc6 23.Rxc6 Rac8 24.d5 exd5 25.Rxf6 d4 26.Rd1 Rfd8 27.Rf3 Be7 28.Rf5 Rc2 (+0.13 @ depth 22; FireBird 1.01)

Feb-09-10  RotH: <Hesam7:The 1.01 version is already out!> I've just downloaded it, thanks.

I would like to post FireBird's 18...d4 line; and here it is (depth=20);

FireBird 1.01 w32: 1) 19.Qf5 Re8 20.Nxd4 cxd4 21.Rxd4 Qc7 22.Rxd7 Qe5 23.Qxe5 fxe5 24.axb4 Bxb4 25.Bd5 Rf8 26.Nc3 Bxc3 27.bxc3 Rxc3 28.Re7 Bxe2 29.Rxe5 Rd8 30.Rxa5 Rc1+ 31.Kg2 Bf1+ 32.Kf3 Rc3+ 33.Re3 Bd3 34.Kg2 Rd7 1.03/20

Feb-09-10  polarmis: <I understand that playing 18. ... Bb7 would be psychologically difficult (I have not seen a human even mention it)>

I checked and it was mentioned in Constantin Landa's live commentary - http://chesspro.ru/chessonline/onli... Though only to say:

<not worth considering is 18...Bb7 19. Nh4 Ne5 20. Nf5 the d5 pawn falls and black's position is almost hopeless>

Feb-09-10  Atking: <(and btw 15...Qb8 is indeed noted as a good move by Lebedev in his analysis - see the crestbook link posted by <polarmis>).> Oh I see. I should check all the posts before that will make my work more easy. Thanks for the link

<15. ... Qb8 is an interesting option as well. The point is that after 16. O-O Qb5 Black is threatening ... b3 and so White is forced to take on b4. 15. ... Qb8 16.0-0 Qb5 17.axb4 Qxe2 18.Qxe2 Bxe2 19.Rfe1 Bxf3 20.Bxf3 Bxb4 21.Rec1 Nb8 22.Bxc6 Nxc6 23.Rxc6 Rac8 24.d5 exd5 25.Rxf6 d4 26.Rd1 Rfd8 27.Rf3 Be7 28.Rf5 Rc2 (+0.13 @ depth 22; FireBird 1.01)> Thanks for the try Hesam7. This line looks indeed very equal. I thought 17...axb keeping the queen on the board but your idea Qxe2&BxNf3! ends with a passed pawn and a B>=Na4 and is interesting too. Still I don't understand your last moves 27...Be7 why not simply Rc6? Another idea is Rc4 instead of d4 with Rb8 to block this Na4.

Feb-09-10  polarmis: It's interesting that Lebedev doesn't mention 18...Bb7 either - he just says: <If you give up the pawn on d5 then its clear that black's opening strategy has suffered a complete collapse> (he gives a line with 18...Nb6 and says it's too bad for words).

It's maybe systematic of Lebedev's style. Despite the obvious depth of his analysis he does tend to skip "duller" sidelines. For instance on Kramnik's 29...c4 he doesn't analyse the computer suggestions but just says: <Rybka keeps insisting on playing 29...Rc7 Coward!> :)

Mar-09-10  soothsayer8: Carlsen kinda got slapped around that game, notice Kramnik didn't even move his queen until the third to last move!
Jun-11-10
Premium Chessgames Member
  GrahamClayton: <achieve>First loss for Carlsen in a VERY long time...

<achieve>,
Carlsen's first loss in 36 games.

Jun-26-10
Premium Chessgames Member
  HeMateMe: I think this was the last time VK beat Carlsen; he beat Magnus twice in 2010, both times with black. Clearly, the Vladimator still has the goods. Can he stay motivated enough to make it successfully through the Candidates matches?
Nov-04-10  checkmateyourmove: this loss still impressed me of magnus's play, to have ur knight pinned all game against the wall and still have chances in the opening, is credit to his vision.
Dec-26-10
Premium Chessgames Member
  notyetagm: http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail...
Jun-02-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  wordfunph: game sidelight..

<Magnus Carlsen often comes to the board just after getting up. When he spent two minutes on his first move against Kramnik at Wijk aan Zee 2010 "he had his eyes closed," the Russian said. "I thought maybe I should wake him up.">

(Chess Life June 2011)

Sep-16-11  voyager39: So this is the proxy Kasparov vs Kramnik revenge game which resulted in the end of the Carlsen-Kasparov collaboration!!

http://www.nettavisen.no/sjakk/arti...

(Google translate will give a fairly understandable english version)

Jan-08-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  notyetagm: Carlsen vs Kramnik, 2010


click for larger view

17 d4-d5!!


click for larger view

Feb-14-13  Kaspablanca: It is true that Carlsen post in his facebook profile that he will crush Kramnik like a bug before this game?
Feb-22-13  blazerdoodle: I thought the kid had more class than that, but in spirit of the modern age......
Feb-23-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  morfishine: Kramnik will need to play like this to get by Carlsen in the upcoming Candidates
Mar-01-13  blazerdoodle: <Can he stay motivated enough to make it successfully through the Candidates matches?> Kramnik plays for that beautiful subtle and mysterious thing that lays hidden, which doesn't show itself very often. Anand can be like that. I think maybe Carlsen too... though Carlsen is still new to me -
Mar-01-13  blazerdoodle: I'm must a woodpusher, very very far down the food chain in the guppy tank, but these guys games amaze me.
Apr-05-14  SpiritedReposte: Kramnik just gives away pieces and pawns like nothing here.
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