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| Feb-22-10 | | percyblakeney: <two missed Qc7 moves> I was thinking the same thing, but Topalov has played very quickly in the time trouble of his opponents in Linares, and even if it has paid off quite well it had to backfire some time. |
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| Feb-22-10 | | LaFreak III: very uncommon opening |
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| Feb-22-10 | | badest: maybe Topa has a "Qc7-blind-spot"?
<kurtrichards> LOL ... yes!! |
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Feb-22-10
 | | Ulhumbrus: After 34 Rxe4!! Qxe4 35 Qc3! Black cannot capture the g6 pawn as on 35...Kxg6 36 Bc2 pins Black's Queen. On 35...Kg8 36 Qc7! administers a fork not to three pieces but to a piece and two squares, the Rook on d8 and the squares f7 and h7. That is to say that the Queen threatens to capture the Rook and threatens in addition to move to move to the square f7 as well as to the square h7. |
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Feb-22-10
 | | tamar: 33 Qa5 was played quickly, but then Topalov thought for at least 10 minutes before playing 34 Bb3?!. I think <Eyal>'s comment about 33 Rxe4! is exactly right. It is easy to calculate, but hard to see. In fact my own reaction to the 34 Rxe4 prompt from my computer was to blink three times and check I had the right position set up. Only after a period of disbelief, I of course saw how "simple" it was. More likely, Topalov played 33 Qa5 with the intention of taking 34 Qxa7 but changed his mind, and played the "safe" move 34 Bb3 without ever considering 34 Rxe4 |
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| Feb-22-10 | | lekoo: see the comentary for this match by GM Giri Anish at: http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.... |
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| Feb-22-10 | | Blunderdome: Also, the rook has been pointing at e4 since move 29...hard to see when possibilities arise in what appears to be a static part of the position when all the moves are taking place on other parts of the board. |
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Feb-22-10
 | | Eyal: <I think <Eyal>'s comment about 33 Rxe4! is exactly right. It is easy to calculate, but hard to see.> It's actually Monokroussos' comment, but I also agree… that's a case where the basic ("geometrical") concept is the difficult thing, rather than the calculation - a rook sac is required in order to gain a tempo for transferring the queen from a5 to c7 via c3 (with check), while keeping in mind that the b1-h7 diagonal is denied from the black king because of Bc2. Topalov's notorious miss in the 2nd Elista game was actually of something considerably simpler:  click for larger viewHere 32.Rxg4+ & 33.Qc7 are both very straightforward moves, one only needs to pay attention to both sides of the board rather than focus only on the K-side (and the b1-h7 diagonal, as far as the queen in concerned). Since Topalov did spend some time on his 34th move, I was surprised that even though failing to spot Rxe4!! he didn't choose Qxa7, which is of course less immediately forceful and elegant, but probably still winning - and an obvious option to consider; e.g. 34...Nxa4 (34...Qc7 35.Bc6!) 35.Qxb7+ Kxg6 36.Qc6+ followed by Qxa4, and White is left with a pawn up, connected passers on the Q-side and the safer king. |
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| Feb-22-10 | | esticles: <kingsindian2006: so up a pawn with a rook ending is still a draw? I always get confused how its a draw up a pawn with rooks on board and sometimes its not.> There are many books and materials on the subject, but the general rule is that if the king on the side without the extra pawn can reach the queening square of the final pawn, the game is a draw. In the endgame here, black's king is well placed so white has no hope of cutting it off from potential queening squares once the other pawns are gobbled up. Google "Lucena position" and "Philidor position". |
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| Feb-22-10 | | jhoro: We know both Topalov and Kramnik missed Qc7 in Elista Topalov vs Kramnik, 2006 This time it is less clear to me if Topa missed it or he simply discarded it. The computer line only exchanges bunch of pieces. After Qc7 there are at least to viable continuations for Aronian: 36.Qc7 Qb1+ 37.Kh2 Qxg6 38. Qxd8 Kg7
 click for larger viewor 36.Qc7 Rd7 37.Bxd7 Nxd7 38.Qxd7 Qxg6
 click for larger viewBoth of these positions (white to move) are a bit unclear (e.g. there is danger you'd miss a perpetual). Also Topalov probably did not want to simplify and tried to keep all the pieces on the board hence 34.Bb3 instead of the originally intended 34.Qxa7. In any case, it is interesting to know if he considered 34.Rxe4 during the game |
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| Feb-22-10 | | Ezzy: 33 Rxe4!! Tal would've seen it! :-)
Didn't Tal say that when he was looking for a move, he first looked at what he could sacrifice. Would an attacking player see 34 Rxe4!! easier than a positional player? It would be good to get a poll from some top players asking whether they would have seen it. (honestly) Is it just a bit of slack form? You would think that a top player analyses every possible move, but for time consumption occasionally prunes his analytical tree. 33 Rxe4!! is an easy quick move to prune, because it loses a piece for no obvious recapture of material. If a player keeps disciplined and always looks 2 or 3 moves ahead in seemingly ridiculous combinations, then he will never miss these chances. Topalov only had to look one more move ahead 35 Qc3+ and he would have seen the whole concept. But why bother keep looking at 34 Rxe4!! <Blunderdome: Also, the rook has been pointing at e4 since move 29...hard to see when possibilities arise in what appears to be a static part of the position when all the moves are taking place on other parts of the board.> We all try to keep our analysis disciplined, and try not to dismiss any move, but to keep dismissing the same move over and over again,(if that's what he did) it then must be difficult to all of a sudden bring the move back for consideration. I forgive Topalov for not finding 34 Rxe4!!
BUT it's still a lesson to be learned. 'prune your tree with care'. Get into the habit of ALWAYS analysing the moves that also seem ridiculous. Easier said than done :-) Missing a possible win is probably a 'massive deal' to Topalov, so I'm sure he'll be re-assessing his thought processes in time for the world championships. Something you have to do if you never want to miss moves like 34 Rxe4!! It could mean the difference between 'being World Champion or not. |
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| Feb-22-10 | | polarmis: Zagrebelny's Chesspro commentary also echoed the comments above about seeing the line: <33... Nb6 Now all that's left is to demonstrate the brilliant blow 34. Rxe4!!The key line is:
33... Nb6 34.Rxe4!! Qxe4 35.Qc3 Kg8 36.Qc7
It's all very simple. The main thing is to see the idea itself.> Followed by:
<34.Bb3?? From someone else, perhaps, but I didn't expect such blindness from Topalov. It turns out that the sun also has spots.> It's one of those positions where if you set it up and said "white to win" Rxe4 would be the first or second move you'd look at. Of course no-one did that (where was Danailov when Topalov needed him!??), but Topalov would still usually spot it. Apparently in an interview with the Spanish Chessbase after the game he said that he was already disheartened at letting an advantage slip by that point and simply wasn't optimistic about his position. Playing on Aronian's time trouble must also have been a factor. |
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Feb-22-10
 | | Eyal: <Ezzy: You would think that a top player analyses every possible move, but for time consumption occasionally prunes his analytical tree.> I think that in middelgame positions, as a rule one definitely wouldn't analyze every possible move, since that would indeed be suicidal in terms of time consumption (in the position after 33…Nb6, for example, there are 33 legal moves for White). Actually, in the case of top players I wouldn't be surprised if they often semi-consciously prune in advance a larger number of moves than weaker players, because they have strong tactical & strategic intuitions about what might "work" and should be focused on, and what might not. And that's exactly one of the points in which computers are so much stronger than human players - they don't play by "intuitions" or "plans," or consider some moves as less "natural" than others, but just check all possible moves each time without prejudice... it often means a huge waste of time, but it also means that they practically never miss "strange" moves that work tactically. <polarmis: Apparently in an interview with the Spanish Chessbase after the game he said that he was already disheartened at letting an advantage slip by that point and simply wasn't optimistic about his position.> This sounds rather strange, because from the "outside" it seemed that starting from 24.h4 his position was only getting better and better, while Aronian's was getting worse and worse – I wonder at what point (and as a result of what move) he thought that he "let the advantage slip" <before> move 34. |
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| Feb-22-10 | | ivan999: frustrating game. topa played excellently and outplayed aronian, but bb3 is just unbelievable. missing such a move must be a blow to topalov. |
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| Feb-22-10 | | ikipemiko: Good game - I think that Levon can be a very good good poker player - he saw the Re4 and risk it - sometimes you win, sonmetimes you lose :) |
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| Feb-22-10 | | jhoro: Interesting info at CV about move 34, along what <Eyal> said above about the Spanish interview, plus, Levon supposedly missed it too. But he is excused - it wasn't his job especially with the amount of time he had left. Kind of puts Giri's comment on CB into question, that super GM's will see this in a couple of seconds. It is also interesting that Topa had no idea what was going on. I guess the two center pawns seemed too dangerous to him. http://www.chessvibes.com/reports/g...
<Peter Doggers: Hi from Hotel Anibal! From a colleague journo I heard that Topalov wasn’t satisfied at all with some of his moves he had played before, and that he wasn’t really looking for a win anymore in that position. Which I found quite interesting: a sort of psychological blindness. Can happen to anyone! Btw Aronian hadn’t seen it either.> |
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| Feb-23-10 | | percyblakeney: <Btw Aronian hadn’t seen it either> Vasiliev at Chesspro asked Aronian after the game if he had seen Rxe4 before Topalov missed it. It took Aronian a while to get the question, then he just closed his eyes and shook his head when he realised white's winning line. |
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| Feb-23-10 | | polarmis: A little bit more on the infamous 34th move from Dmitry Lavrik at Crestbook: http://online.crestbook.com/vasa/20... <34.Bb3? Not even a second-rate move, but much weaker.[Firstly, it was possible to achieve an unbelievably beautiful victory with
34.Rxe4!! Qxe4 35.Qc3+! Kg8 36.Qc7, and in order to avoid mate black has to give up a rook:
36...Qb1+ 37.Kh2 Qxg6 38.Qxd8+, and there's no need to go on.] [Secondly, it was possible to pick off the whole queenside with:
34.Qxa7 Nxa4 35.Qxb7+ Kxg6 36.Qa6+ Kg5 37.Qxa4, retaining an extra pawn.]> Vasiliev at Chesspro actually put the same thing to Topalov: http://chesspro.ru/_events/2010/lin... <The fact that you didn't see Re4 isn't so terrible, it's not so easy to spot, but why didn't you take the pawn on a7 and win an elementary endgame with two connected passed pawns?Veselin shakes his head as though trying to drive away a bad dream, makes a funny grimace as if to say why are you asking me about something that's absolutely impossible to explain? And then he wipes the smile from his face and says with great conviction in his voice: - It would be wrong to complain about fortune. Against Grischuk and Vallejo I should have picked up zero. And I got two points. I've still been very lucky!> |
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| Feb-23-10 | | polarmis: In his video report on the round at Crestbook.com Shipov also said it was a complete mystery that Topalov didn't at least calculate the 34. Qxa7 line. Another interesting point is that Shipov mentions that after 30. Rxc7+ 30...Kxg6 isn't possible because of 31. Rxe4, with the same Bc2 idea winning the queen after 31...Qxe4. So it's quite possible both players had looked at the Rxe4 move earlier, though the later win was a bit more complex (depending on the c3 check, the rook on d8 and mating threats). |
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| Feb-23-10 | | offramp: Topalov has bad memories about the move Rxe4. |
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| Feb-24-10 | | Topista: Or rather RXD4 -THE KASPAROV GAME. |
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| Feb-24-10 | | offramp: Well spotted; I was thinking of Rxd4. |
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Feb-25-10
 | | notyetagm: <tamar: 33 Qa5 was played quickly, but then Topalov thought for at least 10 minutes before playing 34 Bb3?!.
I think <Eyal>'s comment about 33 Rxe4! is exactly right. It is easy to calculate, but hard to see. In fact my own reaction to the 34 Rxe4 prompt from my computer was to blink three times and check I had the right position set up. Only after a period of disbelief, I of course saw how "simple" it was.> Wow, an honest kibitzer here besides me. :-)
I read online that 34 e1xe4!! won on the spot, looked at this position, and *still* did not see the win, just like you. But those fish Topalov and Aronian both missed it, too! |
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Sep-04-10
 | | notyetagm: Game Collection: SS & OL: SAFE SQUARE AND OPEN LINE Topalov vs Aronian, 2010 33 Re1xe4!! Black e5-queen protects c3, interposes g7 |
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| Jan-10-12 | | Penguincw: 20...Bd6. A bishop is probably not the best blockader for a passed pawn. I believe a knight is. I'm not sure why though. Maybe it's less likely to be chased away. click for larger view |
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