< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
|Jul-14-10|| ||beenthere240: OT -- isn't there a junior and a women's championship being played right now?|
|Jul-14-10|| ||OscarR: My suggested counter-move for White would be <16. Bg4>, which:|
1) attacks/pins the e6 pawn;
2) enables White's rook to guard the e3 pawn and even move to e2 to incite an exchange of rooks;
3) allows the possibility of Bh3, which in turn guards the g2 pawn and blocks the Black queen on the h-file should the need arise; and
4) could lead to 17. Ba3 (to take Blackís knight should it later move to c5) followed by 18. d5, which in turn:
a/ opens the b2-g7 diagonal for White's black-squared bishop and/or queen;
b/ threatens 19. Bxe6+; and
c/ threatens Nxe4
16...Nf8 would remove the knight from the White bishop's pin and allow the knight to guard the e6 square, but it would also hinder the doubling of Black's rook on the f-file and, more importantly, it would allow 17. Kxf2 (and 17...Qxh2 would then be met by 18. Bh3 etc.).
16. Bg4 d5 (or Bg5-h4) 17. Re2 (or Kxf2) would probably lead to interesting lines [and Black might still have to work hard for a win even if a pawn ahead]
|Jul-14-10|| ||chrisowen: Whats this battle of the turbanator? As anti colle devices go this one flowered. 15..Rxf2 lip sync combining rook, bishop and Qxh2. 2..f5 following dutch treatment often again 10..Qh5 is quite handy. Spin over the stalking castle and black tiger colors the day, pick of the bunch. Got it in the bag.|
|Jul-14-10|| ||Patriot: <OscarR>
Welcome to the site!
I never thought about 16.Bg4 which is interesting. I would ignore it and play 16...Raf8 to protect the rook on f2 and control the file. So if 17.d5, 17...Nc5 protects the pawn and threatens 18...Nd3 forking bishop and rook.
|Jul-14-10|| ||Marmot PFL: 16 Bg4 might be white's best chance, but after Raf8 and Bg5 hitting e3 still looks bad.|
|Jul-14-10|| ||jackpawn: Still pretty easy for a Wednesday. I found the solution immediately.|
|Jul-14-10|| ||patzer2: The tries 17. Bf1 or 17 Rg1, which were not played in the game, would have put up more resistance.|
Playing it out with Fritz 10 after 17. Bf1 or 17. Rg1, two strong winning lines for Black are:
17. Bf1 Rf8+ 18. Ke2 Qh5+ 19. Nf3 exf3+ 20. Kd2 (20. gxf3 Bxf3+) (20. Kf2 Qh4+ 21. g3 Qh2+ 22. Bg2 Qxg2#) 20... Qh2 21. Bd3 fxg2 22. Re2 Rf1 23. Qc2 Bg5 24. Kc3 Bxe3 25. Rxe3 Rxa1 26. Bxa1 g1=Q .
17. Rg1 Bh4+ 18. Kf1 Rf8+ 19. Bf3 exf3 20. Bc3 Qg3 21. Qe1 f2 22. Qe2 fxg1=Q+ 23. Kxg1 Rf2 ) 17... Bh4+ .
|Jul-14-10|| ||kevin86: Black sacs the rook to get the king into the open/then penetrates with the queen/finally,forces white to cut communication between his only defender AND his defender.|
|Jul-14-10|| ||YouRang: Got it (more or less) after a minute -- quite nice.
I guessed early on that the key move would be <15...Rxf2>, with the frequently-seen "rook reloader" theme in mind. This was a good guess, although it hat a little wrinkle in it: We don't reload the rook (i.e. ...Raf8+) immediately, but instead find an in-between move that makes the reload deadly.
Once this idea took hold, I figured that the in-between move following <16.Kxf2> should be <15...Qxh2!> which grabs another pawn and makes the reloaded rook threat smell almost like mate.
It seems that white must make an escape square for his king at e2 via <17.Bf1> (making an escape square at e1 by moving the rook isn't much good since ...Bh4 hits e1).
Now the reload <17...Rf8+ 18.Ke2 Qe5+> threatens ...Bh4#, and so white must block with <19.Nf3 exf3+ 20.Kd2> (not 20.gxf3 Bxf3+ winning the Q) and then <20...Bh4> attacks a trapped rook, recovering material with a couple extra passed pawns in black's favor (e.g. 21.gxf3 Bxf3 22.Qc2 Bxe1+ 23.Rxe1). Should be good enough to win.
|Jul-14-10|| ||MaczynskiPratten: Nice intuitive sac, it would be very hard to see your way through to the end of all possible lines, but White made things very easy with the suicidal 17 Rh1??|
|Jul-14-10|| ||David2009: P Deshmukh vs B Thipsay, 2008 Black to play 15...?|
Black has the promising Rook sacrifice 15...Rxf2 16 Kxf2 Qxh2. Unfortunately for White, 17 Rh1 loses immediately to 17...Bh4+ winning the Rh1 with check,
and 17 Rg1 is also met by 17...Bh4+ 18 Kf1 Rf8+ 19 Nf3 exf3 with good compensation for the exchange. Thus White has to hand back material,
Time to check what actully happened.
The weak game defence came as a surprise. However, on examining he game and moving the pieces, 17 Rg1 loses to Rf8+ 18 Nf3 exf3 and
now 19 Bxf3 is met by Rxf3! (I had missed the fact that the Bishop on b7 now supports the Rook). Half credit.
POSTSCRIPT: Reading the kibitzes I see that I found the right follow-up to 17 Rg1 for the wrong reason. 17...Bh4+ is even stronger than Rf1 since in the main variation 17...Bh4+ 18.Kf1 Rf8+ 19.Nf3 exf3 20.Bxf3 Bxf3 White cannot recapture on f3 because of the mate on f2.
|Jul-14-10|| ||ZUGZWANG67: Material is even. B has doubled pawns on the e-file but has compensation in the e4-pawn and the f-file. W has more space on the Q-side. B has pressure on the f2-pawn and the b2-B is not defended. Hm...|
What if that f2-pawn proved "takable"?
15...Rxf2 16.Kxf2 Qxh2. How would W prevent 17...Bh4+ then? W has no check to interpose, the g2-pawn is pinned and 17.Rh1 Bh4+ 18.Kf1 Qxh1 mate does nothing to adress the problem. But he can cover h4 with the N. So 17.Nf3. But then, that e4-pawn (I knew there was somethin there!) plays its role and 17...exf3 renews the theat at h4 AND introduces a new one at g2. 18.Kf1 Qxg2 mate; 18.Rh1 Qxg2 mate; 18.Bxf3 Bh4+ 19.Kf1 Qh1 mate.
So it turns out that, if my analysis is correct, B can win a p.
Time to check.
Not too obvious for a wednesday puzzle! We win a pawn!
|Jul-14-10|| ||ZUGZWANG67: Gees! I thought B won after 17.Nf3 exf3 18.Bxf3 Bh4+, but 19.Ke2 actually saves W! |
I was happily about to suggest <BURLEYMAN> a better move than his 17...Rf8 after 17.Nf3 (see his post), i.e., 17...exf3, when suddenly I realized that the recapture by W's B vacates e2! XD
|Jul-14-10|| ||OscarR: Patriot, thanks for the welcome. (I did just join today, and my last message was indeed my first post.) Anyway, letís look again at my suggested counter play:|
16. Bg4 Raf8
17. Re2 Bg5
18. Rxf2 Bxe3
click for larger view
I don't have a chessboard at home (I'm an amateur, and I haven't been serious with the game for years), so it's a little bit difficult for me to analyze further...but White might still have some fighting chances. [It's at least better than being mated quickly.]
|Jul-14-10|| ||scormus: <OscarR> for an amateur with no board, youre not doing badly! You probably realise by now it gets tougher as you go through the week to Sunday.|
|Jul-14-10|| ||M.Hassan: "medium/easy" Materials even. Black to move
a Rook sac. weakens White camp and Black Queen and Bishop can make final assault
if 17.Rh1 Bh4+
White can defend with the Knight or Bishop, but the result will be the same. Let us try the Knight:
18.Rh1 Bh4+ B can not be taken
as the Knight is
Time to check
|Jul-14-10|| ||wals: White relinquished the game with:-
Other alternatives were:-
1. (-0.26): 14.a4 a5 15.Qc2 c5 16.Rad1 Qg6 17.g3 Rab8 18.Rc1 Rbc8
2. (-0.28): 14.b4 a5 15.b5 Ndf6 16.Nxe4 Nxe4 17.Nd2 d5 18.Nxe4 fxe4 19.Qc2 Bd6 20.h3 Qg6
3. (-0.29): 14.h3 c5 15.Bf1 Qg6 16.a4 a5 17.Qe2 cxd4 18.exd4 Rac8 19.g3 d5
4. (-0.33): 14.Rf1 c5 15.Qc2 Qg6
5. (-0.33): 14.Qc2 c5
courtesy of Rybka 3 1-cpu: 3071mb hash: depth 15:
|Jul-14-10|| ||Patriot: <OscarR>
Your line looks quite good, though black has to be winning there. Black can just take on f3: 19...exf3 20.Bxf3 Qg5 (threatening 21...Bxf3) 21.Bxb7 Rxf2 (and a discovered check is threatened winning the queen). Or 19...exf3 20.gxf3 Qg5 (threatening 21...h5).
I'll double-check this in Fritz but your line does attempt to mix things up, which is good for white at least from a human chessplayer standpoint because a human player can make a mistake and end up losing when things get complicated.
Generally I don't consider moves like Bg4, because the move isn't immediately threatening. White must show that he has compensation for the lost pawn so perhaps 16...Rf7 is a simple refute, which is not to say it's the best move. But if a simple move like that proves that white is just down material then from a practical standpoint 16.Bg4 is not a problem and 15...Rxf2 is still a good move.
|Jul-14-10|| ||zb2cr: Hi <ZUGSWANG67>,
See <agb2002>'s post, line A.5 for the continuation against 17 Nf3:
"A.5) 17.Nf3 exf3 18.Bxf3 Bh4+ 19.Ke2 Bxf3+ 20.Kxf3 (otherwise 20... Bxd1) Qg3+ 21.Ke2 Qxg2+ 22.Kd3 Bxe1 23.Qxe1 Qxb2 - + [N+2P]."
I don't think White survives down that kind of material. He isn't mated right away, but being down a Knight and 2 Pawns with no real compensation is a death warrant over the chessboard.
|Jul-14-10|| ||reti: The text-move is the only logical continuation.|
|Jul-14-10|| ||binno: I have immediatly seen Rxf2 but discarded. White is not forced to take and i have thought that one P was not enough!|
|Jul-14-10|| ||HolyAvatar: I still don't see what black can do after 16.Rf1 .
All I can see is:
Very hard game for white but still not lost.
The only way to continue the attack is to transpose into my next line.
Sorry I have no chess program and it's too late to be getting my board so these line are probably totally wrong.
|Jul-14-10|| ||vangogh228: I'm not seeing too much wrong with 16. Bg4. I'm probably missing something but I don't see it.|
I don't ever accept a sacrifice unless I'm ABSOLUTELY sure it won't end in disaster.
|Jul-15-10|| ||patzer2: <vangogh228> After 16. Bg4, Black wins with 16... Raf8! when play might continue 17. Nxe4? Rxg2+! 18. Kxg2 Bxe4+ 19. Kg1 Rf2 20. Kxf2 Qxh2+ 21. Kf1 Qg2#.|
|Jul-15-10|| ||zb2cr: Hi <HolyAvatar>,
You wrote: <I still don't see what black can do after 16.Rf1 .
All I can see is:
Very hard game for white but still not lost.>
After 16. Rf1 Black doesn't have to engage in any risk at all. She just plays 16. ... Rff8; 17, Rxf8+, Rxf8; 18. Nf1, Bg5; 19. Bc1 and she has an extra Pawn and has White completely tied up. It's a dead loss.
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