< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 3 ·
|Oct-23-10|| ||scormus: Did I miss a day? Slept 30 hours, and no wonder I've been out of sorts all morning. No not that, must be my brain packing up.|
It looked so much like a quick win for B I thought I't get it in no time, make up for my failures the last 2 days. Moving the Rf2 didnt seem to work so .... bite the bullet with 38 ... Nxg4. Even then the best I could get was a draw .... and so far that's the best anybody gets. Is there really nothing better from this lovely attacking position? So it seems.
<TheAlchemist> time trouble? Could well have been, and maybe with 37 ... Rff2 as well. Or psychology? I've lost so many games because I refused to admit my opponent's defense was stronger than my attack, and didnt retreat my forces.
|Oct-23-10|| ||whiteshark: <35...Rf2!> was winning |
click for larger view
|Oct-23-10|| ||CHESSTTCAMPS: White has the material advantage of B+N for a rook and pawns on b4 and c6 that would win an endgame. Black, on the move, has thrown the entire force at the white king, and usually such an accumulation of force - doubled rooks, queen, pawn and knight - would mean victory. Yet white's knights appear to defend the position perfectly (especially the key dark squares f2,g1, g3, and h2), while Q+B also defend the kingside. Black's Queen and Rf2 are both en prise and the Rf2 is also pinned. In view of this, any black continuation must involve a sacrifice. The attempts to win all come up short: (I) 38... Qxg4?? 39.Bxg4 Nxg4 40.Nxf2 Nxf2+ 41.Qxf2 Rxf2 42.Ng5 and black has nothing left. (II) 38... Rb2?? 39.Nxh4 and there is no good continuation. (III) 38... Rh2+?? 39.Nxh2 Rb2 (Ng4 Nxg4) 40.Qxh4 Rxb1+ 41.Nf1 stops the illusion. (IV) 38... Rxf3?? (or Re2) 39.Qxh4 wins (V) 38... Qg3?? 39.Nxg3 Rxf3 40.Nf1 wins. |
This leaves one sensible continuation - play for a draw, with some winning chances in case white blunders:
A) 39.Nxh4 Rh2+ 40.Kg1 Rfg2+ 41.Nxg2 Rxg2+ 42.Kh1 (Kf1?? Nh2#) Rh2+ draws.
B) 39.Nxf2?? Nxf2+ wins.
C) 39.Bxg4?? Qxg4 40.Nxf2 Qxf3 and the dual threat of 41... Rxf2+ and Rh2+! forces mate.
So I would guess that the game went into line A, with a draw.
|Oct-23-10|| ||al wazir: <Nullifidian: <I saw that after 38...Nxg4 39. Bxg4 Qxg4 40. Nxf2 Qxf3, white has 41. Qd1, with the continuation 41...Rxf2+ 42. Qxf3 Rxf3. So there is no forced mate>|
Actually, there is a forced mate in that line, but not with 40... Qxf3. Instead, Black should play 40... Rh2+!>
You're right. Thanks. I guess I should have seen that, since that line was the result of analysis I did *after* peeking. Maybe I should unpat my back.
|Oct-23-10|| ||kevin86: Oops,black blew it! However,it also looks like a draw with BEST play on both sides.|
|Oct-23-10|| ||agb2002: Black has a rook and a pawn for a bishop and a pawn.|
White threatens 39.Nxh4, 39.Nxf2 and to push the b-pawn.
An immediate idea is to bring the rest of forces into attack with 38... Nxg4:
A) 39.Nxf2 Nxf2+ 40.Qxf2 Qxf2 - +.
B) 39.Bxg4 Qxg4 (threatens 40... Rxh2+ 41.Nxh2 Qg2#) 40.Nxf2 Qxf3 - +.
C) 39.Nxh4 Rh2+ 40.Kg1 Rfg2+ 41.Nxg2 (41.Kf1 Rh1#) Rxg2+ 42.Kh1 (42.Kf1 Nh2#) Rh2+ 43.Kg1 Rg2+, perpetual.
I have considered other options but they seem to lose quickly. For example, 38... Rb2 39.Nxh5 Rh2+ 40.Kg1 and 40... Rbg2 is met with 41.Nxg2.
|Oct-23-10|| ||Jimfromprovidence: <whiteshark> was on to something after 35...Rf2. |
There are two excellent variations from this position to study, as white has both 36 Qd1 or Qe1 as defensive options.
Per Rybka freeware, after 35...Rf2 36 Qe1, black has 36...Rb2!.
click for larger view
After 35...Rf2 36 Qd1 Rg2+ 37 Kh1, black has 37...Rf5!
click for larger view
|Oct-23-10|| ||OBIT: Huh, well I can see how the pecking order stacks up in this joint. I was the first poster for this game, when there were no responses to peek at. And, I said I had decided on 38...Nxg4, lamenting that it looked like it was only good for a draw but I couldn't find the super-snazzy win that I suspected lay buried in this devious position.|
About fifteen moves later, <dzechiel> shows up and gives the same move and analysis, along with the same lament about not being able to find the win. Later still, <Eleven> chimes in (I'm assumed Once's handle is a reference to the Spanish word for "eleven," not "once" as in "once upon a time..."?) giving his daily eloquent soliloquy, and again we see the 38...Nxg4 drawing sequence.
Then comes the following posts:
<patzer2>: "Like dzechiel, I wondered if I was missing a win."
<al wazir>: "Hey, give me a break... all I had read was dzechiel's post." (I love that one. So nobody else writes posts worth reading?)
<David2009>: "I missed Once's elegant draw starting with 39. Nxh4"
OK, I understand that dzechiel, having shown amazing dedication in posting here every day for years now, has attained a certain status as the Grand Old Man of the POTD crowd. And I also realize that Once's commentaries are Shakespeare compared to my Mickey Spillane. Even so, now I know how Randy California feels. ("Who's Randy California?" you ask? He was a member of the 1960's band "Spirit" who wrote the acoustic guitar piece that starts Led Zeppelin's "Stairway to Heaven." I'll bet nobody here knew that.)
|Oct-23-10|| ||Patriot: I tried to solve this last night (bad idea!), fell asleep after 20 minutes or so, woke up about 45 minutes later, looked for another 10 minutes and said "I don't see a win!"|
|Oct-23-10|| ||Patriot: <OBIT> If it's any consolation, I very much enjoy reading your posts which are very accurate. You deserve full credit for finding the draw before anyone else. But that's just my two cents worth.|
|Oct-23-10|| ||tacticalmonster: 1) Black queen and rook are both hanging
2) Black is down material: rook and pawn for knight and bishop
3) Black rooks and h3 pawn are perfectly placed. Black queen and knight need better squares but they are restricted by the g4 pawn
4) White has an endgame advantage: The possibility of creating a passed c-pawn with b5-b6 push
5) White has great defensive resources: The major pieces guard the back rank while the minor pieces control the g-file except g2 and the critical squares f2 and h2
6) White king is stalemated at the moment
conclusion: With all these minuses against Black, I don't even know if Black is playing for a win anymore. I think this puzzle is Black to play and draw
candidate: 38 Qxg4 and Nxg4
a) 38 Qxg4 39 Bxg4 Nxg4 40 Nxf2! Nxf2+ 41 Qxf2 Rxf2 42 Ng5!- White is winning this endgame because Black kingside passers are blockaded by the White king while Black has no answer to the queenside passer. Black would only get a pawn for a knight after either 43 Nxh3 or 43 Ne6+ followed by Nxc7
b) 38 Nxg4 39 Nxh4 ( not 39 Bxg4?? Qxg4 now Black is winning) Rh2+ 40 Kg1 Rfg2+! 41 Nxg2 Rxg2+ 42 Kh1 ( Not 42 Kf1 Nh2#) Rh2+ with perpetual check
|Oct-23-10|| ||dzechiel: <OBIT>, if it's any consolation, you are one of six users on my "Favorites" list.|
|Oct-23-10|| ||doubledrooks: Black's pieces are ominously threatening the white king, but white threatens the black queen and f2 rook.
Therefore, 38...Nxg4 and now:
39. Bxg4 Qxg4 40. Nxf2 Rh2+ and mate next move
39. Nxh4 Rh2+ 40. Kg1 Rfg2+ 41. Nxg2 Rxg2+ Kh1 42. Rh2+ with a perpetual.
|Oct-23-10|| ||gofer: Well I can get a draw...
38 ... Nxg4
39 Nxh4 Rh2+ (Bxg4 Qxg4 winning)
40 Kg1 Rfg2+
41 Nxg2 Rxg2+ (Kf1 Rh1#)
42 Kh1 Rh2+ (Kf1 Nh2#!)
43 Kg1 Rg2+
But I can't get anything more... :-( ...so do I get a "full point" for getting half
a point? or do I get "no points" for getting half a point?
Time to check...
|Oct-23-10|| ||CHESSTTCAMPS: <OBIT> Randy, you definitely deserve credit for being the first to post the correct solution. Like <Patriot> and others, I also read your posts sometimes and appreciate your insights. See recent dialog in my forum with <David2009> about Topalov vs Leko, 2006 . (BTW could you share the source of endgame tables that you used? - Thanks.) |
Peeking at the game, viewing other kibitzer's posts, or seeking computer assistance before attempting my own assessment and solution has never interested me - it's a little like cheating at solitaire. My impression is that most of the regular kibitzers feel the same way. When a new puzzle comes up, it's after midnight where I live. Sometimes I feel pretty sharp and sometimes quite tired. Today it was the latter. Like you (and apparently several others), I saw the draw on my initial review within a reasonable amount of time, but suspected there was a hidden win, so I waited until morning to take a fresh look. In general, I prefer to take my best shot and feel I have a clear understanding of the position before posting.
The contributions of <dzechiel> and <once> are consistently interesting and entertaining, but there are several others I regularly read and learn from.
|Oct-23-10|| ||scormus: <OBIT> Hey, take it easy, at least youre not getting a whole bunch of responders who want to argue with you. Once and Dzechiel get their fair share of detracters if I remember right. Anyway, I saw your early post and thought along the same lines.|
Oh yes, what my old boss used to say .... if you want to get noticed, get an eye-catching logo.
BTW I don't think too many people knew about Randy CA. I sure didnt and I'm a Robert Plant fan.
|Oct-23-10|| ||gofer: <OBIT>: I crave attention, but don't get it. |
Paul Spericki: "I was just trying to get a little validation for my life. I guess I came up a bit SHORT!"
I post such utter rubbish 25%-50% of the time I can't expect much, but I still scan the rest of the posts looking for <gofer> with a positive comment, hoping for some "validation in my life, but it looks like I just came up short!) Paul Sperricky
I mostly look for <dzechiel> in the normally vain hope that he failed to get it right and then <Once> to find out which of his life experience will take the lead in his daily homage to CG (i.e. those influenced by "TLS" v those influenced by "LSD"). But when I have done too little work and too much analysis on a Friday, I normally get cocky and pounce on anything I read here that should be followed by a (?).
But do I look for <OBIT>... ...
|Oct-23-10|| ||CHESSTTCAMPS: <once> <Otherwise we perp him (is that really a word?) with Rg2+ and Rh2+....> Sure, it gives a completely new meaning to the expression "perp walk."|
|Oct-23-10|| ||chrisowen: Franco St encompasses disc world er loin try ratchet nxh4 Zenon tube handles rooks indian rope trick. Everything is in hand it a couple in of go trample qh4 you i.d. after Nf5 look stamford long route. Rub of the draw network spew 38..nxg4's pike eval. I um remedy my church of reason two bites of the cherry. Pip in dunk queen and auntie Safranska shuffling rooks. Birdman Ocampos island, er KID showdown rh2 signal nod Kg1 cat Anda im oust height.|
|Oct-23-10|| ||Once: <OBIT> My friend, let's give credit where credit is due. You were first to post today and you were right about the truth behind this tricky position. I take my hat off to you. I always read your posts and enjoy them a great deal.|
And you told me something I didn't know about Stairway to Heaven, and for that you have my thanks. I hope the sun never sets on a day when I haven't learnt something, even if it is just a new joke or a bit of pop trivia.
What makes this site so special is the contribution of all the regulars. And maybe you are right that we ought to take the time to say "thank you" a little more often than we do.
So let me say, and please believe me to be sincere in this - thank you.
BTW, my handle is a reference to a column I used to write for the British magazine Chess called "Once in a lifetime". I argued that every chess player should study classic games the tactics and combinations, with the idea that we should play the classic tactics at least once in our lives.
|Oct-23-10|| ||David2009: <OBIT: [snip] <David2009>: "I missed Once's elegant draw starting with 39. Nxh4">|
OBIT I can only apologise. I was rushing to complete my post by lunch, posted it missing the Crafty link (more haste less speed) deleted it to repost and took time out to read the kibitzes on the game page - and was amazed to find that Nxh4 drew. I thought Black mated with the two Rooks (chess blindness). I played it out against Crafty End Game Trainer, duly got mated, read <Once>'s post more carefully - and realised I had 41 Nxg2! avoiding the mate. So I added my postscript but without checking earlier posts.
Chess computers suffer from an 'event horizon' effect. I find today that I suffered 'kibitzing horizon' - not reading (today) the posts on the first page. My very sincere apologies.
|Oct-23-10|| ||LIFE Master AJ: Istudied for aboput 15 minutes, and gave up. (Never found a win for Black ... and I don't think there is one.)|
|Oct-23-10|| ||OBIT: Well, I suppose I should explain the Randy California/Stairway to Heaven connection a little better. Some Led Zeppelin fans will argue the Spirit song ("Taurus") and Stairway to Heaven are completely different, giving some arcane musical explanation like one has an ascending chord sequence while the other has a descending chord sequence. To me, they sound virtually identical, and this ascending/descending difference is like arguing two paintings are completely different because in one the subject is looking to the left, while in the other the subject is looking to the right. Those interested can make their own decisions:|
As for Randy California, he never complained about the similarity, saying groups borrowed each other's ideas all the time. (Led Zeppelin and Spirit toured together when LZ was getting started, so they were unquestionably familiar with the Spirit song.) He regards the astounding success of Stairway to Heaven as a compliment, and he acknowledges the guitar intro is just a small part of this remarkable song.
|Oct-23-10|| ||wals: I went for the drawn line 38...Ng4
39.Nxh4 Rh2+ 40.Kg1 Rhg2+
Analysis Rybka 4 x 64
depth 22 : 60 min :
more productive was,
dxc5,+0.71,which results in an open a file and the Q on e7.
depth 17 : 4 min :
Best, Ncxe4, +1.12.
depth 18 : 2 min :
depth 12 : 2 min :
Best, Qe7. -1.15.
Game, set and match, White.
|Oct-23-10|| ||EXIDE: Just a little bit too difficult for me I am afraid. I considered 38.--,Nxg4 also, but could not find the right continuation, because I was looking for a black win. Oh well, not too disappointed, rarely get these level puzzles correct. As compensation I enjoyed the Anand vs Topalov game at the Nanjing tournament (currently being played). Seemed like the world match continuation all over again!!|
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