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Piotr Nguyen vs Hans Tikkanen
27th Cappelle-la-Grande (2011), Cappelle la Grande FRA, rd 5, Mar-01
English Opening: Symmetrical. Symmetrical Variation (A36)  ·  0-1
ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

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sac: 36...Qxf1+ PGN: download | view | print Help: general | java-troubleshooting

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Aug-24-12  Abdel Irada: <<gofer>: Okay <CG> explains that seeing 36 ... Qxf1+ was crutial, but OTB we would ALL find this! It is far better than the only other choice 36 Qxe3+!>

In this case, CG.com is wrong. As I pointed out in the analysis in my first post, as long as White doesn't play the self-defeating check ♕a7?, the queen sac on f1 doesn't work. In fact, White can play a forcing series of checks leading to the capture of the rook on d8, followed by the undefended pawn on d2.

One lesson chess teaches us: Suspect other people's analysis, even from strong players or people in authority. No one is immune to error, and chess has a way of shining a merciless and pervasive light on such error.

Aug-24-12  Abdel Irada: <zealouspawn>: Black has a much easier win:

32. ...e3;
33. d8=♕?, exf2;
34. ♖xf2, ♗xf2;
35. ♕xf2 (35. ♔f1, ♕h1#), ♕xf2;
36. ♔h1, ♕f1#.

Aug-24-12  stst: Back!
Two major developments to the obvious
32.......e3
(A)The easier/shorter one:
33.Bxe3 Bxe3, 34.h4 Bxf2+, 35.Kh2 Qxg3+
36.Kh1 Qh3#
(B) The long and unsettling one:
33.d8=Q Rxd8, 34.Bxd8 e2, 35.h4 Qxf2+, 36.Rxf2 e1=Q+, 37.Kg2 Qe4+, 38.Rf3 Be3, 39.Bg5 d2, 40.Bxe3 d1=Q etc. and Black should prevail.
Aug-24-12  stst: After checking the game, got reservation to the line of defense by White. The one I outline offers tougher resistance, though at the end, it's obvious Black's pawns are the way to advance and promote, in case two queens are still not enough to deliver the kill.
Aug-24-12  stst: <I am in the somewhat ludicrous position of arguing with the referee, but I respectfully disagree: White's 35 Qa7+ is inferior to the immediate 35 fxe3, and both are defeated by ...Qxe3+; whereas ...Qxf1+ only wo...>

- Here's the line: "..respectively disagree..."!! - We're on same page now!!

Aug-24-12  LoveThatJoker: <Alex56171> Hi! The interactive link is based on yesterday's game after the line 13. Nb5! Qa4 14. b3 Qa6 15. Nd6+ Qxd6 16. Bxd6 dxc4 17. Qc3 exd6 18. Qxc4+ Kb8 19. Rc1 Be7 20. Qc7+ Ka8 21. Rxe7 Nxe7.

LTJ

Aug-24-12  Abdel Irada: <stst>: "Respectively"? I'm not sure why you want him to use that adverb, rather than "respectfully," which has an entirely different (and, I would think, correct) meaning.

Did you have some other interpretation in mind that I've overlooked?

Aug-24-12  Alex56171: Thanks a lot, <LTJ>. I congratulate you for finding a win for white. The maximum I got was a draw. Fritz 6 took 47 moves till the checkmate. How many moves have you needed?
Aug-24-12  LoveThatJoker: <Alex56171> Thanks, man! I had to go through a ton of moves (still within the 50-move rule, of course).

I had to ultimately simplify into an ending involving K+Q for White vs. K+N+PP

Give me a sec, I'm going to post the winning procedure shortly just gotta go through it again.

LTJ

Aug-24-12  LoveThatJoker: <Alex56171> Here is the PGN, man!

If you play what I played against crafty, it'll more likely than not repeat everything move for move - thus, the win is proven based solely on human calculation!

LTJ

[Event "Lewisham"]
[Site "Lewisham"]
[Date "1981.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "H Murphy"]
[Black "Andrew P H Kinsman"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D07"]
[WhiteElo "1956"]
[BlackElo "2403"]
[PlyCount "31"]
[EventDate "1981.??.??"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 Nc6 3. Nc3 dxc4 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. d5 Bxf3 6. exf3 Ne5 7. Bf4 Ng6 8. Bxc4 c6 9. Qd2 Nf6 10. O-O-O Qa5 11. Rhe1 O-O-O 12. Kb1 cxd5 13. Nb5 Qa4 14. Rc1 (14. b3 Qa6 15. Nd6+ Qxd6 16. Bxd6 dxc4 17. Qc3 exd6 18. Qxc4+ Kb8 19. Rc1 Be7 20. Qc7+ Ka8 21. Rxe7 Nxe7 22. Qxe7 Rd7 23. Qe3 Rg8 24. f4 d5 25. Qd4 b6 26. f5 Kb7 27. g4 Rc8 28. Rxc8 Kxc8 29. g5 Ne8 30. f6 gxf6 31. gxf6 Kb7 32. Qh4 Rd6 33. Qxh7 Rxf6 34. Qh8 Re6 35. h4 Re1+ 36. Kc2 Nc7 37. h5 Re2+ 38. Kd3 Rxf2 39. h6 Rxa2 40. h7 Rh2 41. Qg8 Rh3+ 42. Ke2 Rh2+ 43. Kf3 Ne6 44. h8=Q Rxh8 45. Qxh8 a5 46. Qe8 Nc5 47. Qxf7+ Kc6 48. Qe8+ Kc7 49. Qb5 d4 50. b4 axb4 51. Qxb4 d3 52. Ke3 Kc6 53. Kd4 d2 54. Qb1 Kb7 55. Kc3 Kc7 56. Kxd2 Nb7 57. Kc3 Na5 58. Kb4 Nc6+ 59. Kb5 Na7+ 60. Kc4 Nc8 61. Qh7+ Kd6 62. Kb5 Ne7 63. Kxb6 Nd5+ 64. Kb5 Ke5 65. Kc5 Nf4 66. Qc2 Ne6+ 67. Kc4 Nf4 68. Qd2 Ke4 69. Qd4+ Kf5 70. Qe3 Ne6 71. Kd5 Nf4+ 72. Kd6 Ng6 73. Qf2+ Nf4 74. Qf3 Kg5 75. Ke5 Ng6+ 76. Ke4 Nh4 77. Qg3+ Kf6 78. Qxh4+) 14... Kd7 15. Bxd5 Qxf4 16. Be6+ 1-0

Aug-24-12  Tiggler: <Dr. J>: <<gofer: <Crafty EGT> (colours reversed) loses in a similar time and fashion without having to play Qxf1+... 36 ... Qxe3+ 18 moves...
36 ... Qxf1+ 18 moves...
http://www.chessvideos.tv/endgame-t... >

36 ... Qxe3+ 15 moves...
36 ... Qxf1+ 16 moves...

So Qxe3+ is obviously superior...>

Dr. J, while I am with you in your <ludicrous position of arguing with the referee>, I don't think that no of moves to the eventual end is a good criterion. No of moves to a clear, demonstrable win is more to the point, and Qxf1 wins on that score. The main problem with the position taken by chessgames.com is that white's move 35.Qa7+ is a dumb move, and only if that move occurs does 36 ...Qxf1+ arise. 36...Qxe3+ does not depend on anticipating the malfeasance of the W Q, however, and it wins. In the position that did occur, Qxf1+ is prettier, and also decides the game more clearly.

Aug-24-12  Alex56171: <LTJ> Here's the result I got with Fritz 6 against the http://www.chessvideos.tv/endgame-t...: 22. Qxe7 Rd7 23. Qe3 Rg8 24. g4 h6 25. h4 Kb8 26. Qd4 Rgd8 27. g5 hxg5 28. hxg5 Ne8 29. f4 Rc7 30. Rc3 f6 31. Re3 Rxe3 32. fxe3 fxg5 33. fxg5 Rc8 34. b4 a6 35. Kb2 Kc7 36. Qd5 b5 37. Kb3 Kb6 38. e4 Rb8 39. a4 bxa4 40. Kxa4 Rc8 41. Qf5 Rb8 42. Qd7 Ra8 43. e5 dxe5 44. Qe6+ Kb7 45. Qd5+ Ka7 46. Ka5 Nc7 47. Qxe5 Kb7 48. Qxg7 Rd8 49. g6 Rd1 50. Ka4 Rg1 51. Qf7 Ra1+ 52. Kb3 Rb1+ 53. Kc2 Rg1 54. g7 Rg3 55. g8Q Rxg8 56. Qxg8 Kc6 57. Qd8 Nb5 58. Qc8+ Nc7 59. Kb3 Kb6 60. Qd7 Nb5 61. Kc4 Nc7 62. Qd6+ Kb7 63. Kc5 Na8 64. Qc6+ Kb8 65. Qd7 Nc7 66. Kc6 Ka8 67. Qc8+ Ka7 68. Qb7#
Aug-24-12  LoveThatJoker: <Alex56171> Could you be so kind to post the full pgn please!

I want to play it on my GUI, but when I try to "improv" the pgn, it doesn't let me due to something with the notation.

I would seriously appreciate it, man; as I want to see how Fritz 6 took care of things.

LTJ

Aug-24-12  Alex56171: <LTF> I'm afraid I can't assist you. I'm new with chess softwares. I use ChessBase Light 2009 (free download). It comes with Fritz 6. What I did was to paste the position FEN on the board and then I played one program against the other, copying the moves by hand. Since it's a free copy, it does not let you save games in PGN format, unless I'm wrong. If there's anything else I can do for you, please, let me know, it will be a pleasure.
Aug-24-12  Alex56171: <LTJ> Sorry, it was my fault. Move 29 for black is Re7. I'll look for more mistakes.
Aug-24-12  Alex56171: <LTG> I tried to replay the game a few minutes ago and I noticed some changes in the responses of custom-crafty, basically from the 50th move on. Thus, the notation I posted may become invalid after that move.
Aug-24-12  Tiggler: <zealouspawn>: <The line 32.. e3 33 Bxe3 has been well documented by everyone.. let me explore 33 d8=Q Here, black can simplify with

33 d8=Q exf2+ 34 Rxf2 Qxf2+ 35 Qxf2 Bxf2+ 36 Kf1 Rxd8 37 Bxd8>

Better is
33 d8=Q exf2+ 34 Rxf2 Bxf2+ 35 Qxf2 Qxf2+ 36 Kh1 Qf1#.

If 35 Kf1 Bxg3+ 36 Kg1 Qf1# or 36 Qf2 Qxf2#.

The new W queen is a spectator.

Aug-25-12  Abdel Irada: <Tiggler>: Scroll up. I told <zealouspawn> exactly the same thing 15 posts ago. :-)
Aug-25-12  Tiggler: <Abdel Irada: <Tiggler>: Scroll up. I told <zealouspawn> exactly the same thing 15 posts ago. :-)>

So you did, and one of your lines is 1 move shorter than mine. I wonder if <zealouspawn> saw either of them?

Aug-25-12  Abdel Irada: <Tiggler>: That's an excellent question. Judging by some of the later kibitzes I've read, I get the sense that my posts are invisible.

Maybe it's the "tl;dr" effect: In my long analysis (posted almost immediately after the kibitz from <chessgames.com>), I remarked that the queen sac on f1 actually *loses* in the lines in which White doesn't play the self-paralyzing ♕a7. In the ensuing kibitzes, several other commenters observed the same thing, and none of them gave any indication of having noticed that I'd already addressed the issue.

Oh, well. Rather than lament that no one reads what other people say, I suppose I should applaud the players for their independent spirit.

Aug-25-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Once: <Abdel Irada> The issue may be that you analysed the line 35 fxe3 Qxf1+ which loses for black ...


click for larger view

White is able to check the black king on f7 and then and win both rook and advanced passed pawn, as you have shown.

CG.com was talking about the line 35. Qa7+ Kh6 36. fxe3 Qxf1+


click for larger view

This wins for black because white doesn't have the same checking resources. He would dearly love to hyperspace his queen to f4 when the checking trick would work, but unfortunately for him that's not allowed by the rules of chess.

So I don't think that anyone was ignoring your analysis or that CG.com was wrong. It's just that you were referring to a situation where Qxf1+ didn't work (ie when the white queen was on a7) when most of the other variations we have been looking at it does work.

The bit where I think CG.com was wrong was in suggesting that 36...Qxf1+ was the only (or even the best) way to win. And you are quite right that white has to play the poor Qa7+ move to make it possible.

Aug-25-12  Tiggler: <Once>, <The bit where I think CG.com was wrong was in suggesting that 36...Qxf1+ was the only (or even the best) way to win.>

I think 36...Qxf1+ is the best way to win, because after 37 Kxf1 d2, there is an immediate threat of mate in 2, and Black's only ways to stop it involve the exchange of the queens, leaving Black with R and two connected passers: could not be clearer. Other moves end up with a more tortuous win.

Aug-25-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Once: It is something of a chessgames specialite de maison - to quibble about which of two clearly winning moves is the "best". Earlier this week, we had folks arguing the merits of two different mates in two, for goodness sake!

What it usually means is that people will argue for the move that they spotted. Or if that want to prove a point against someone they have a grudge against - which is also, regrettably, a specialite de maison for some.

In reality, it usually doesn't make the slightest jot of difference. A win is a win is a win. You might as well argue about whether ice cream is better than chocoloate or red wine is better than white wine.

The 36...Qxf1+ line leads to this position (after 37. Kxf1 d2):


click for larger view

By contrast, the 36...Qxe3+ line leads to here (after 37. Kg2 Qe2+ 38. Kg1 d2):


click for larger view

Or here (after 37. Kh1 d2):


click for larger view

In each case white is clearly lost. Which is better? Does it really matter?

As a general rule, when I'm material ahead I like to keep it simple, so I instinctively lean towards the 36...Qxe3+ line. It puts the other guy in check and means that he is responding to me (and not the other way around). It also means I'm not sacrificing my queen and I don't have to calculate any of those sneaky zig zag queen checks. d2 is coming soon and white has no spite checks against the black king.

That's just my preference. 36...Qxf1+ looks equally good. Fritzie says both win by force - 36...Qxf1+ is a mate in 25 and 36...Qxe3+ is a mate in 36. And white will have resigned way way before then.

Aug-27-12  zealouspawn: Abdel Irada AND Tiggler:

Yes, I just saw both of your lines :)
my line still wins but not nearly as quickly as yours--that's one of the things about we chess players--we find a win that best fits our style first, and then most of the time we stop looking there.

This is both a positive and negative thing... on the one hand it is good to play to your strengths. I'm the type of player who loves simplifying into won endgames and grinding out wins. However, my line was harder to calculate and not as fast... I had a "blind spot" to the quicker variation because of my chess tendencies.

The important thing to take from this is to be self-aware. Some players (like myself) would first analyze 34.. Qxf2+ because it forces the queens off and black has more pawns. Other players first look at 34.. Bxf2+ because they like to keep pieces on the board when their enemies' king is in danger. Both are good trains of thought but you shouldn't be blind to one move (as I was in this situation) just because of your predesposition.

Aug-27-12  Tiggler: <Once> After reading your last post, I concede the point: no difference. Both lines win with no trouble.
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