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Hosea / Schiller / Wall vs Aylerkupp / Rybka
CG.com Masters - Machines Invitational (2011), Yahoo Chess, rd 4, May-06
Queen Pawn Game: Zukertort Variation (D02)  ·  0-1
ANALYSIS [x]

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Kibitzer's Corner
May-07-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <kutztown46>, <Golden Executive> Looks wild. Started to look at it but ran out of time. Will look at it later.

I hope that the carbon units take pity on poor little Rybka.

I am otherwise ready for the game.

<chessmoron> What was that lounge again? :-)

May-07-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: Yes, but honor has been restored to the silicon units. Rybka wins in 52 moves.
May-07-11  Open Defence: congrats! I am surprised we lasted that long with the open g and f files
May-07-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <Open Defence> Frankly, so was I. A win is a win, I suppose, but I was slightly disappointed that Rybka couldn't find a mating attack. It's very difficult to be on the defensive against an engine's attack, particularly when you also have a time disadvantage. But we'll take the win any way we can get it.

Have a nice trip and I hope that you can catch up on your sleep on the plane.

May-07-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <open Defence> I take that back, I think I do deserve some credit. At move 6 I got a message from my Arena GUI that White had forfeited on time, and it wouldn't let me make any more moves. I restarted the game and made all the moves up to that point without losing too much time on the clock, and luckily I didn't have this problem again.

And on move 20 I got a message from Yahoo! chess that an opponent had resigned an unfinished game. I didn't know what to make of that or what it was referring to. I was able to continue without further problems but I could have pressed the wrong button at that time and maybe resigned our game by mistake.

And let's not forget that I played the first 4 moves all by myself without getting into a lost position, and that was almost 8% of all the moves.

So, yes, I'll take 1% of the credit for the win.

May-07-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: Humans (Hosea, Schiller, Wall HSW) vs. Rybka/AylerKupp, May-06-11:

A complex and exciting game, with castling on opposite sides and mutual attempted pawn storms. Unfortunately for HSW, Rybka gained the initiative. And, although HSW defended well (I was slightly disappointed that Rybka didn't find a winning mating attack) I think that the complexity of the game was a problem for HSW since it caused them to use up a lot of their time, a situation made worse by their need to consult to determine their move. As <Open Defence> so succinctly phrased it was a position that was "engine heaven and human hell". And defending against an engine that has the initiative, particularly when you're at a time disadvantage, is very, very difficult. For once I was able to sit back and let Rybka move when it wanted to, since it had the time advantage (for a change!) so I didn't have to force it to move except once (29...Nxg2) when it took almost 10 minutes for what seemed like an obvious move and one that had a much higher eval than its 2nd PV. I was afraid that Rybka was caught in a computation loop! But the combination of Ponder=ON and a large (1024 MB) hash table is tough; in many instances Rybka moved immediately after HSW did, anticipating their move and keeping the time advantage. Almost like a human. In their place would have been unnerved!

But once Rybka's evals started to climb with a reduced number of pieces on the board, plenty of time on its clock, and Rybka able to calculate at greater depths, then I knew it was effectively over since I doubted that Rybka would overlook anything when calculating at depths near or over 20 plies with just a few pieces and pawns remaining. But I got to give credit to HSW, they put up a great fight and it's a good thing that I was able to see Rybka's favorable evals for reassurance, otherwise I might have had the heart attack that <qilzqhynw> thought I might have had after <Open Defence>'s comment about setting up a fortress that an engine might not have foreseen. Luckily, as I indicated, I had left my heart in San Francisco some time ago.

The straightforward game score. I'll post the evals and calculation times in a latter post, along with my patzer comments later when I have some more time.

1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4 Nf6 4.e3 c5 5.Nc3 c4 6.a3 Nc6 7.Be2 Qb6 8.b3 Nh5 9.Be5 f6 10.Bg3 Nxg3 11.hxg3 Qa5 12.b4 Qb6 13.e4 Ne7 14.O+O Bd7 15.Qd2 h5 16.a4 a5 17.b5 g5 18.Rfe1 O+O+O 19.Nh2 h4 20.gxh4 gxh4 21.Bf3 h3 22.exd5 hxg2 23.dxe6 Bxe6 24.Qe3 Bf5 25.Bxg2 Ng6 26.Nd5 Qd6 27.Nf1 Nh4 28.Ne7+ Bxe7 29.Qxe7 Nxg2 30.Qxd6 Rxd6 31.Kxg2 Bxc2 32.Ne3 Bd3 33.d5 Rdd8 34.Rg1 Kc7 35.Rac1 Rhg8+ 36.Kf3 Rxg1 37.Rxg1 Kb6 38.Rg4 c3 39.Nc4+ Kc5 40.Nxa5 Re8 41.Nb3+ Kd6 42.Rd4 Bf1 43.Na1 f5 44.Nc2 Re2 45.Rd1 Rxc2 46.Rxf1 Kxd5 47.Rd1+ Kc4 48.Rd7 b6 49.Rc7+ Kb3 50.a5 bxa5 51.b6 Rb2 52.Ke3 a4 53. 0-1

Final position:


click for larger view

Labore et honore reduxit to the silicon units.

May-07-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  kutztown46: <AK> Congratulations, I guess that means Rybka is in 1st place and my Stockfish is the only one in the tournament with four draws. That means either <GE> or I must beat you, or you will win the tournament!

Or, if Rybka draws its last two games and Stockfish beats the carbon units, then Rybka and Stockfish will be tied.

May-07-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <kutztown46> Many things still can happen. Rybka can lose to both Stockfish and Houdini and the masters could beat both Stockfish and Houdini. Too early to count chickens.

I don't know about you but I think that the masters should be congratulated. Based on the results in 2007, when they only drew 2 games and lost 4, I frankly expected it to be relatively easy for the machines to beat them, given the huge advances in chess engine software and (particularly) computer hardware in the last 4 years. No multi-core processors and gigabytes of memory then! Instead they have held their own against the machines so far (2 draws, 1 win, 1 loss) and I wouldn't underestimate them or count them out in the remaining 2 rounds. Time to start overclocking your processors!

May-07-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  kutztown46: <AK> I agree completely. The masters have done very well, and better than I expected also.
May-08-11  Open Defence: though yesterday I had a Korchnoi moment with Rybka!

"you will never understand anything about chess! you're just a machine!!...."

May-09-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: Patzer commentary on game Masters (Hosea, Schiller, Wall HSW) vs. Rybka/AylerKupp, on May-06-11 (part 1 of 6):

As before, I set the Arena GUI to 93 minutes/game to give me 12 minutes to deal with Clock Lag. This time, since <chessmoron> showed me how to enter the first 8 moves using the Arena GUI, I decided to enter the opening moves myself rather than selecting from the candidates that Rybka displayed at each depth. This was actually an increased burden on me since I didn't want to fall into an opening trap and hand over the game to Rybka in a lost or highly unfavorable position

I felt that I needed a win since the masters were leading the tournament with 2 points (1 win, 2 draws) at the half-way point. Since my opening knowledge is highly outdated and I haven't yet mastered coordinating the use of Opening Explorer white using both the Arena GUI and Yahoo! Chess, I decided to actually do some opening preparation. I wanted to create a double-edged, unbalanced, and complex open or semi-open position where engines are at their best. I also wanted to steer away from the usual theoretical lines but it was difficult to find openings that neither Eric Schiller or Bill Wall had written a book about! The decision was halfway taken out of my hands when the masters chose a London system which typically leads to solid positions (the masters also know what types of positions the engines do best in!) but at least there isn't as much theory on the London system as there is on many of the other openings.

White Black Eval Depth Time
1.d4 d5 - - -
2.Nf3 e6 - - -
3.Bf4 Nf6 - - -
4.e3 c5 - - -
5.Nc3


click for larger view

Here I lost my nerve. I was going to play the logical (to me) 5...Nc6 but I was expecting 5.c4 and was afraid of falling into a standard opening trap. So I turned over the conn to Rybka. But at least I can say that I lasted 4 moves without losing against 3 masters! And Rybka surprised me by . . .

White Black Eval Depth Time
5... c4 - - -
6.a3 Nc6 - - -
7.Be2

Here I got a message from the Arena GUI that my White had lost on time and it wouldn't let me make the 7.Be2 move. So I "calmly" restarted the game, made the first 7 moves and forced Rybka to move. I thought that perhaps I hadn't set the Arena GUI's clock correctly and was afraid that this problem would happen again. But I apparently had set Arena's clock properly and the problem didn't reoccur. I still don't know what happened. And I finally started getting some evals from Rybka.

May-09-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: Patzer commentary on game Masters (Hosea, Schiller, Wall HSW) vs. Rybka/AylerKupp, on May-06-11 (part 2 of 6):

White Black Eval Depth Time
7... Qb6 +0.23 18 167
8.b3 Nh5 +0.31 18 16


click for larger view

Interesting move by Rybka. Here it is uncastled, with its q-side undeveloped, and it decides to go after the bishop with no safety net for its knight. But it turned out well. And the game is starting to become complex and double-edged, just as I wanted it to be.

After the masters' reply (Rybka thought 9.0-0 was White's best move, evaluating it at [0.23], d=20) I wisely let Rybka take its time trying to find its next best move.

White Black Eval Depth Time
9.Be5 f6 +0.08 17 157
10.Bg3 Nxg3 +0.05 17 9
11.hxg3 Qa5 +0.01 18 98
12.b4 Qb6 +0.01 18 119
13.e4


click for larger view

This I thought might have been a mistake on the part of the masters, increasing the complexity of the game, but I don't think that they had much choice. Black was threatening ...a5 opening up the q-side. Opening the center by White is clearly called for, given their lead in development and Black's uncastled king, plus the open h-file available to White's KR. Rybka now considered the position even.

White Black Eval Depth Time
13... Ne7 +0.01 16 154
14.O-O Bd7 0.00 17 88
15.Qd2 h5 -0.15 18 83
16.a4 a5 -0.24 17 150
17.b5


click for larger view

I considered 16.a4 and 17.b5 mistakes by White. Black's king is somewhat trapped in the center after 15...h5 since the k-side pawns are too loose and White can open up either the q-side or the center without difficultly. But 16.a4 and 17.b5 close up the q-side and White would have difficulty opening it, so Black's king should be quite safe there after 0-0-0 and able to launch a pawn storm against White's king. But Rybka didn't think that White had many good choices, it preferred 16.Rfe1 followed by 17.Bf1 instead of either 16.a4 or 16.b5 at d=20 but not by a large margin [-0.09] to [-0.11] for the latter 2 moves.

May-09-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: Patzer commentary on game Masters (Hosea, Schiller, Wall HSW) vs. Rybka/AylerKupp, on May-06-11 (part 3 of 6):

White Black Eval Depth Time
17... g5 -0.24 17 0
18.Rfe1 O-O-O -0.36 18 0
19.Nh2 h4 -0.37 18 95
20.gxh4 gxh4 -0.31 18 162
21.Bf3 h3 -0.54 17 251


click for larger view

And now Rybka has the initiative and its evals started to really climb. Suddenly it's White's king that's not safe and it's black that controls the h-file, not White. And any further opening of lines, either on the k-side or the center, increases Black's advantage, in spite of White's desire to "carve up the center". And, to make matters worse for White, at this point Rybka started to have a definite time advantage.

Another oddity happened at move 20. I got a message from Yahoo! Chess that an opponent had resigned an unfinished game. I still don't know what that was all about but I was able to get rid of the message without upsetting anything.

White Black Eval Depth Time
22.exd5 hxg2 -0.63 17 45
23.dxe6 Bxe6 -0.63 15 8
24.Qe3 Bf5 -0.98 16 0
25.Bxg2 Ng6 -0.82 16 151


click for larger view

<Open Defence> phrased it best "this position is engine heaven and human hell."

White Black Eval Depth Time
26.Nd5 Qd6 -0.94 15 73
27.Nf1 Nh4 -0.87 17 0
28.Ne7+ Bxe7 -1.26 19 227
29.Qxe7 Nxg2 -1.40 20 568


click for larger view

And here I forced Rybka to move since on the Yahoo! Chess screen I was seeing the "At most 10 min/move" displayed even though I was assured that it had been unselected. I certainly didn't want to take a chance to lose this position on time! Besides, 29...Nxg2 was clearly the best move and had a large eval difference over Rybka's 2nd PV so I couldn't figure out why Rybka was taking so long to make that move.

May-09-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: Patzer commentary on game Masters (Hosea, Schiller, Wall HSW) vs. Rybka/AylerKupp, on May-06-11 (part 4 of 6):

White Black Eval Depth Time
30.Qxd6 Rxd6 -1.40 14 1
31.Kxg2 Bxc2 -1.40 16 20


click for larger view

So we got to the endgame. I was a little bit disappointed that Rybka couldn't find a spectacular sacrifice to end the game in a mating attack against White's exposed king but with a bishop against a knight, Black's advanced passed c-pawn and Black's more active pieces I was confident that the ending should be won for Black. Besides, Rybka says so, and it had recovered much of the time advantage it had lost due to its 28th and 29th moves.

White Black Eval Depth Time
32.Ne3 Bd3 -1.40 18 12
33.d5 Rdd8 -1.40 18 0


click for larger view

Here Rybka thought that 34.Kf3 was better than the 34.Rg1 the masters actually played, [-1.39] vs. [-1.76] at d=20. The masters were concerned about 34.Kf3 Rh3+ followed by 35...Rdh8 but after 35.Kf4 Rybka preferred 35...Re8 to cut off White's king from penetrating to the q-side as indeed it played later.

White Black Eval Depth Time
34.Rg1 Kc7 -1.66 18 0
35.Rac1 Rhg8+ -1.69 18 1
36.Kf3 Rxg1 -1.69 18 0
37.Rxg1 Kb6 -1.69 17 11


click for larger view

And now Black has a chance to penetrate along the dark squares and protect the c-pawn against attack by White's rook and knight. Or advance it if it gets the chance as in the game. Yet Rybka thought that at d=20 38.Rg4 [-1.84] as played was better than the other 2 alternatives it considered, 38.Rg7 [-1.89] and 38.Kf4 [-2.09]. So, in spite of some time pressure, the masters are still playing the best or near-best moves, at least as far as Rybka is concerned. But its evals are continuing to climb in Black's favor.

White Black Eval Depth Time
38.Rg4 c3 -1.86 18 0
39.Nc4+ Kc5 -1.86 19 6
40.Nxa5 Re8 -1.87 20 99


click for larger view

A relatively long calculation time by Rybka but the right choice, cutting off White's king from the q-side. There was some speculation on the masters' side about building a "fortress" that Rybka (as well as probably most engines) didn't understand but that didn't work out, nor the part of trying to give me a heart attack by talking about it because, as I mentioned, I left my heart in San Francisco (along with Tony Bennett, that's how old I am) a long time ago.

May-09-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: Patzer commentary on game Masters (Hosea, Schiller, Wall HSW) vs. Rybka/AylerKupp, on May-06-11 (part 5 of 6):

White Black Eval Depth Time
41.Nb3+ Kd6 -1.87 18 19
42.Rd4 Bf1 -2.12 20 99


click for larger view

42...Bf1 was a good and unexpected move by Rybka, providing later support for the rook to invade the 2nd rank. But at d=20 Rybka thought that 32.Rd4 was by far White's best move so the masters are still making it as difficult as possible for Rybka to nail the win. But that White knight certainly looks ugly on a1 after White's next move. Yet, again, at d=20 Rybka thought that 43.Na1 was by far White's best move.

White Black Eval Depth Time
43.Na1 f5 -2.21 21 0
44.Nc2 Re2 -2.21 17 0
45.Rd1 Rxc2 -2.21 20 0
46.Rxf1 Kxd5 -2.05 21 23


click for larger view

And, unfortunately for the masters, even though Rybka's eval dropped slightly, not all rook endings are drawn even though 47.Rd1+ and 48.Rd7 were considered by Rybka to be White's best moves by far. But two good quotes from the chat room:

White: Do you think we can draw this?
White: I hope so
White: Hope, that greatest of all treasures ...
Black: And the love of a good woman

But it's all over.

White Black Eval Depth Time
47.Rd1+ Kc4 -2.94 21 65
48.Rd7 b6 -2.94 21 3
49.Rc7+ Kb3 -3.38 22 0
50.a5 bxa5 -3.38 21 0
51.b6 Rb2 -3.38 21 7
52.Ke3 a4 -6.51 19 0

And White resigned since the 2 advanced Black pawns are too much. Overall I was pleased with Rybka's endgame play since this is a notorious computer weakness but this was a sharp endgame in contrast with a positional endgame and this apparently made a big difference.

Final position:


click for larger view

May-09-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: Patzer commentary on game Masters (Hosea, Schiller, Wall HSW) vs. Rybka/AylerKupp, on May-06-11 (part 6 of 6):

To try to answer some of the questions that you posed at the end of the game:

1. I personally thought that a London system with 3.B4 was a good choice against a computer but that the masters let the game get too complicated and tactical where engines have an advantage. And I think that 5.Nc3 was not the best; c3 and Nbc2 are more usual with a London system and more in keeping with trying for a solid game with steady pressure and build-up.

2. Both <Open Defence> and I thought that 17.b5 was unwise. But you had pretty much committed yourselves to it after 16.a4, and at any rate Rybka thought that both of those were your best moves at the time. But if that's the case then your game had already started to go downhill.

3. Rybka evaluated the continuation 22.g3 dxe4 23.Nxe4 Nd5 at [-0.57], d=21, not that much better than the 22.exd5 hxg2 ([-0.63], d=17), so 22.g3 would not have been a significant improvement.

4. Rybka evaluated the position after 14.0-0 Bd7 exactly even at [0.00].

I any of you have any other questions or alternate moves that you would like me to analyze, just let me know. But I am curious about the remark of "ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance".

May-13-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <kutztown46> Thanks. It was an easy game to play once I overcame the hiccup on move 7. It sure was nice with a time advantage for a change to just sit back, let Rybka make the moves when it decided to make them, and watch the evals steadily improve.
May-08-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  wwall: [Event "man vs machine"]
[Site "www.yahoo.com"]
[Date "2011.05.07"]
[Round "4"]
[White "Wall&Schiller&Hosea"]
[Black "Rybka4"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "D02"]
[PlyCount "104"]
[EventDate "2011.05.07"]
[SourceDate "2011.05.07"]

1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 e6 3. Bf4 (3. c4) 3... Nf6 4. e3 c5 5. Nc3 c4 6. a3 Nc6 7. Be2 (7. b3 Be7 8. h3 cxb3 9. cxb3 Bd7 10. Be2 O-O 11. O-O) 7... Qb6 8. b3 Nh5 9. Be5 (9. Bg3) 9... f6 10. Bg3 Nxg3 11. hxg3 Qa5 12. b4 Qb6 13. e4 (13. O-O) 13... Ne7 14. O-O (14. exd5 Nxd5) (14. Qd2) 14... Bd7 15. Qd2 (15. Rb1) 15... h5 16. a4 a5 17. b5 g5 18. Rfe1 (18. exd5 exd5 19. Rfe1) 18... O-O-O 19. Nh2 h4 20. gxh4 (20. Nf1 hxg3 21. Nxg3 g4 22. exd5 exd5) 20... gxh4 21. Bf3 (21. exd5 Bh6 22. Qd1) 21... h3 22. exd5 (22. g3 dxe4 23. Nxe4 Nd5 24. Rad1 Rg8 25. Nc3 Nxc3 26. Qxc3 Qc7 27. Qb2 Qd6) 22... hxg2 23. dxe6 Bxe6 24. Qe3 (24. Qf4) (24. Qe2) 24... Bf5 25. Bxg2 Ng6 26. Nd5 (26. Be4 Nh4 27. Nf3 Rg8+ 28. Kh1 Bxe4 29. Nxe4 Ng2 30. Qc3 Nxe1) 26... Qd6 27. Nf1 (27. Qg3 Nh4 28. Ne3 Nxg2 29. Qxg2 Bh3 30. Qf3 Rg8+ 31. Kh1 Be6) 27... Nh4 28. Ne7+ Bxe7 29. Qxe7 Nxg2 30. Qxd6 Rxd6 31. Kxg2 Bxc2 32. Ne3 Bd3 33. d5 Rdd8 34. Rg1 Kc7 35. Rac1 Rhg8+ 36. Kf3 Rxg1 37. Rxg1 Kb6 38. Rg4 c3 39. Nc4+ Kc5 40. Nxa5 Re8 41. Nb3+ Kd6 42. Rd4 Bf1 43. Na1 f5 44. Nc2 Re2 45. Rd1 Rxc2 46. Rxf1 Kxd5 47. Rd1+ Kc4 48. Rd7 b6 49. Rc7+ Kb3 50. a5 bxa5 51. b6 Rb2 52. Ke3 a4 0-1

Aug-24-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  thegoodanarchist: I submitted this for GOTD, pun is "Hosea Can You See?"
Jun-10-16  Open Defence: I thought we did well not to get crushed in an attack though we ended up in a losing endgame
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