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|Mar-10-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <scormus> I am also of the opinion that 17. e6 Rxg7 18. exf7+ is better.|
I am sincerely hoping that everyone here will appreciate my line of 17. e6 Rxg7 18. exf7+ Kf8 19. Qxc8!!
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19...Qxc8 20. Bh6
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|Mar-10-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <17...Bd5> As I said in my original post that is by far the most critical line. |
Attention should be brought to <agb2002's> line E1 as a good account on what happens after 19. Qf3 Rxg7: "E.1) 17... Bd5 18.exf7+ Bxf7 19.Qf3 Rxg7 20.Bd4 Rh7 21.Qxb7 and White's position looks much better."
I didn't touch base upon that line but I did on others; magnified here is what I wrote regarding 17. e6! Bd5 in my original post:
<17. e6 Bd5 18. exf7+>
[18. Qe4!? (hoping for 18...Bxe4? 19. exf7+ Kd7 20. Rad1+ Bd3 21. f8=Q Rxf8 22. gxf8=Q when White is winning) 18...Bxe6 and although White is still better it's not clear how he will win]
<18...Bxf7 19. Qf3 Qd5>
[19...Bd5?! 20. Qf8+! Kd7 21. Rad1 Kc6 (21...e6?? 22. Rf7+ Kc6 23. Qc5#) 22. Qxd8 Rcxd8 23. Bh6 with the clear advantage]
<20. Bh6> and White has all the winning chances in the position.
|Mar-10-12|| ||PeaceRequiresAnarchy: Saturday, March 10, 2012 Najdorf vs Frenkel, 1926 “White to play” 17.? Material is even.|
White’s queen is currently under attack, so it’s probably going to have to move. I don’t see any attacks on black’s king. Perhaps there is something to be gained with the g7 pawn.
Let’s try 17.Qg5. If 17…Rxg7 18. Qh6 If 18…Kf8 19.Qh8+ Rg8 20.Bh6# If 18…Rg8 19.Qh7 If 19…Rf8 20.Bh6 If 19…Kf8 20.Bf6+ winning the rook. So 17.Qg5 Rxg7 loses for black.
If 17…f6 18.Qxf6+ Kd7 19.Rd1+ winning the queen.
If black plays a passive move such as 17…e6 18.Qh6 with similar threats as earlier. Let’s try a defense of 18…Bd5 to provide an escape for black’s king along the d file (by putting the bishop on d5 white can no longer check the king with Rd1 to win the queen). 19.Qh7 Kd7 20.Rxf7 and black is in trouble.
Well the general idea of my attack seems to be quite good. I’m probably missing a better defense for black. What I see looks very good though. The fact that black can’t take the pawn after 17.Qg5 really tears apart black’s position. I’m going to look at the solution one move at a time, so that if black plays a defense that I haven’t covered I can try to look for the correct move without seeing it. In a game I would definitely play 17.Qg5.
Wow, well I missed it completely! I didn’t even consider any other candidate first moves simply because I thought Qg5 did the trick. I wonder what defense I missed.
Crafty played 17.Qg5 Qd5 which forces white to protect g2 with another piece before Qh6, and by that point my attack fails. Black’s queen is now also protecting the rook on g8 as soon as the f pawn is moved forward. My move is just a blunder.
|Mar-10-12|| ||PeaceRequiresAnarchy: I learned that just because your queen is being attacked by a pawn doesn't mean that you necessarily have to move it, capture another piece, or put your opponent's king in check. A nice move like 17.e6 setting up a bunch of threats can work too!|
|Mar-10-12|| ||viking78: Tried 17.Rxf7, missed 17.e6 preparation.|
|Mar-10-12|| ||Jimfromprovidence: <patriot> <22...Be6 looks like another defense in your last position. At least I'm not seeing the win.> |
By blocking the e pawn with the bishop now white has 23 Bh6!, below.
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This threatens 24 Qxg8+ Bxg8 25 Rg8#, which looks hard to stop.
Moving the e pawn instead looks best, but I don’t know if 22..e6 or 22..e5 is better as 23 Bg5 looks good either way.
|Mar-10-12|| ||chesskidnate: <jimfromprovidence> if black plays 22...e6 or 22.. e5, 23.Rf6 looks tough to stop, I.e. 23...Rd8 24.Raf1 Rd7 25 Rxf7 |
|Mar-10-12|| ||DarthStapler: I got the first move|
|Mar-10-12|| ||Patriot: <Jimfromprovidence> You're right! 23.Bh6 creates a powerful threat. That's a difficult threat to find!|
|Mar-10-12|| ||sethoflagos: Fritz (white) produced a little Najdorf surprise for me this evening. I blew it. Enjoy!|
B90: Sicilian Najdorf: Unusual White 6th moves, 6 Be3 Ng4 and 6 Be3 e5 1.e4 c5 2.f3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.xd4 f6 5.c3 a6 6.e3 e5 7.b3 e6 8.f3 e7 9.d2 O-O 10.O-O-O a5 11.b5 a6 12.e2 b8 13.g4 c8 14.hg1 a4 15.xa4 b4 16.c3 xa2+ 17.xa2
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|Mar-10-12|| ||Phony Benoni: <Once> Thank you for that explanation. It just confirms what Watson always used to say: "<Once> you have eliminated the possible, whatever remains, however likely, must be impossible."|
|Mar-10-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <sethoflagos> 18...d5 looks good to me. |
If 19. g5 dxc4 20. Na5
[20. gxf6? cxb3+ ; 20. Nd2 c3 21. gxf6 cxd2+ 22. Kb1 (22. Kxd2 Rxb2+ ) 22...Qa8 23. Rxg7+ Kh8 24. Rg8+ Rxg8 25. fxe7 Ra1+ 26. Kc2 Rc8+ 27. Kxd2 Qa5+ ]
20...Nxe4 is fine as 21. fxe4 Rxa5 and Black is up a significant amount of material and has an initiative to boot.
Furthermore, note that if after 20...Nxe4 White plays 21. Nxc4, Black has the stunning 21...Nc3! essentially winning on the spot!
|Mar-10-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: I gave 17. e6 Bd5 18. exf7+ Bxf7 19. Qf3 to Stockish for 2 plus hours. This is what it came up with:|
(+2.94) 17. e6 Bd5 18. exf7+ Bxf7 19. Qf3 Qd5
[(+1.29) 19... Rxg7 20. Bxa7 Qd5 21. Qe3 Be6 22. Rad1 Qc6 23. Qe5 Rh7 24. Rfe1 Kf7 25. Bf2]
20. Qh3 Be6 21. Qg3 Bf5 22. Rad1 Qf7 23. Bd4 e6 24. Qe3 Rd8 25. Qe5 Qd7 26. Rde1
|Mar-11-12|| ||rilkefan: <LTJ>: Stockfish thinks 19.Qxc8 (19.Qe2 is +3 then +4 at depth) Qxc8 20. Bh6 Ba4 is just a pawn better at a depth of 30 (19.Qe2 is +3). With the Rxf7 line at +6.|
|Mar-11-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <rilkefan> After 19. Qxc8!! Qxc8 20. Bh6 Ba4 (stockfish's suggestion) White wins easily due to the following criteria which I stated in my original post:|
"and White wins due to having a R, open lines for the R, an active K, and the ability to place his pawns on dark squares."
Obviously it is not going to be a crush at this point, simply an easy grind for the full point.
|Mar-11-12|| ||sethoflagos: <<LoveThatJoker:> 18...d5 looks good to me.>|
d5 often is black's key move in this opening, but timing is everything and it doesn't quite work here
19.exd5 Nxd5 20.Rxd5 Bxd5 21.Kb1 and black must retreat
|Mar-11-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <sethoflagos> I see that what you say in regards to 18...d5 19. exd5 is correct.|
Stockfish also favours 19.exd5 Nxd5 20.Rxd5 Bxd5 21.Kb1 with a (+0.75) eval. Furthermore, Stockfish also finds the correct solution to the problem you posted: 18...Bxc4! with a (-5.29) eval!!
That's an excellent puzzle, man! Good on you for posting it on here; I've learned something today as it relates to what Gennady Nesis would label 'Tactics in the Sicilian.'
Swing by my forum and join your fellow kibitzers in posting your favourite/most memorable Fischer game!
|Mar-11-12|| ||scormus: <LTJ ... 17. e6 Rxg7 18. exf7+ Kf8 <19. Qxc8!!> Qxc8 20 Bh6>|
Cool! That thinking out of the box move will leave W ahead R vs. B+p when the dust has settled. I think the real strenght of 19 Qxc8 is it might cause B to have a heart attack, but its a rather extreme way to win a chess game ;)
|Mar-11-12|| ||rilkefan: <<LoveThatJoker>: <rilkefan> After 19. Qxc8!!> So those exclams are ironic?|
|Mar-11-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <scormus> Yeah, man! As George Carlin would say, it would get pretty hearty for Black. Hearty as in heart attack. :D|
Come by my forum and post your favourite/most memorable Fischer game!
|Mar-11-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <rilkefan> I think 19. Qxc8!! is brilliant move as it is leads to clearly won endgame while removing the Q from an en prise position.|
Do you see that it leads to a clearly won endgame?
PS. You're also welcome to swing by my forum and post your favourite/most memorable Fischer game.
|Mar-11-12|| ||rilkefan: A won endgame against who? Could you win it against Carlsen? I suspect I would win in the Rxf7 line against him.|
Anyway, I think I made myself clear on this issue here:
V Gashimov vs R Kempinski, 2011
|Mar-11-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <rilkefan> Without resorting to Stockfish, after 19.Qxc8!! Qxc8 20. Bh6 Ba4 21. Bxg7+ Kxg7 22. f8=Q+ Qxf8 23. Rxf8 Kxf8 24. h4 and 25. Re1 with the plan of 26. Re5 and then bringing up the K, White is clearly winning as Black is bound to lose one of his pawns at some point in the near future.|
PS. I'm currently analyzing 19.Qxc8!! Qxc8 20. Bh6 Ba4 21. Bxg7+ Kxg7 22. f8=Q+ Qxf8 23. Rxf8 Kxf8 with Stockfish so it can demonstrate the most accurate technique in converting all the plusses into a win.
I'll post its analysis as soon as it is complete.
|Mar-11-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <rilkefan> I've looked up my idea of 24. h4 and 25. Re1 and it likes it a lot. My assessment that White will regain a pawn is correct and furthermore that the game is won. Here is an objective Stockfish line to prove it to you: <paste these lines to the pgn of the game to play them on your game-viewer>|
24. h4 Bxc2 25. Re1 Kf7 26. Re5 b6 27. Rd5 Ke8 28. Kf2 Ba4 29. Ke3 Bc6 30. Rd2 Kf7 31. Kd4 Ke6 32. Kxc4 Kf5 33. Kd4 e5+ 34. Ke3 b5 35. g3 Ke6 36. Rd8 +1.33
An interesting alternate version can be found here also:
24. h4 Bxc2 25. Re1 Kf7 26. Re5 Kf6 27. Rc5 Bd3 28. Rc7 Be4 29. Rxc4 Kf5 30. Kf2 a6 31. g3 e5 32. Ke3 Bc6 33. a4 Ke6 34. a5 Kf5 35. Rb4 Bd5 36. Rb2 Kg4 37. Rd2 Bc6 38. Kf2 Be4 39. Rd6 Kf5 40. Ke3 Bc6 41. Rd8 Kg4 42. Kf2 Kf5 43. Rf8+ Ke6 44. Ke3 Bb5 45. Rb8 Bc6 46. c4 Ke7 47. Rg8 Kf7 48. Rd8 Kf6 49. Rd6+ Kf7 50. Kf2 Be4 51. g4 hxg4 52. Kg3 Bf3 53. c5 e4 54. Kf4 +3.31
Note that Stockfish comes up with its own idea of how to play the endgame via 24. Rd1 Kf7 25. Kf2 Bxc2 26. Rd5.
To be honest, I'm not sure that this approach works for me. In all honesty I prefer my approach.
This being said, you are correct in saying that Najdorf's 18. Rxf7! is much more immediately convincing than 18. exf7+ and 19. Qxc8. Hence, I was incorrect in saying that 18. exf7+ and 19. Qxc8 were better: they're not better in that they prolong the game giving Black some hope.
However, continuing with the spirit of truth and objectivity, Stockfish is on my side as it relates to my approach to the endgame produced after 18. exf7+ and 19. Qxc8; and my assessment that the endgame is won is correct. So although not better, 18. exf7+ and 19. Qxc8 lead to a won game for White.
Thanks for analyzing the position with me and I look forward to your reply. Also, swing by my forum and post your most memorable/favourite Fischer game.
PS. I would also like to add that from a surprise standpoint 19. Qxc8 does deserve a '!!', however in terms of chess objectivity, as a human move, it could possibly be only deserving of a '!?'
PPS. I'm leaving Stockfish to analyze what was White's objectively best move after 18. exf7+ Kf8 overnight. I'll be posting the analysis when it is complete.
|Mar-12-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: Here is Stockfish's analysis of
17. e6! Rxg7 18. exf7+ Kf8 19. Qg3 Qc7 20. Qxc7 Rxc7 21. Bh6 Rc8 22. Rae1 Bd5 23. Re2 Bxf7 24. Bxg7+ Kxg7 25. Rxe7 Rf8 26. Rxb7 a5 27. Ra7 Kg8 28. a4 Be6 29. Rxf8+ Kxf8 30. Rxa5 (+7.55)
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