< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
|Oct-19-11|| ||Ulhumbrus: <bronkenstein: On 11...f4 simple 12.Bg4! puts black on defensive (to say the least) for very long time , in case you don`t like to eat pawns (which is serious alternative, and one of the reasons no1 ever played the move on the high level IMO).> On 11...f4 12 Ng4 Nxd5 seems worth a look at. It attacks the N on c3 and discovers an attack on the N on g5.|
|Oct-19-11|| ||bronkenstein: Maybe last line would make some sense if 13.Qxd5 wasn`t check.|
|Oct-20-11|| ||DrMAL: This game was not particularly great one for Kramnik but instead it was notably awful one for Giri it seems psychological factor compounded by Giri's extreme youth and inexperience. Opening ran down well known line until 12.Bf3 (instead of usual 12.f3) this would give equal game after 12...fxe4 13.Ncxe4 Nf5 but lesser moves chosen 12...c6 13.Ba3 gave equality anyway. Game remained basically equal with questionable pawn on d6 until 18...Nc7?! giving white some edge, 18...Qc8 was more accurate. |
After 19.b5! only move to keep advantage Giri made second mistake 19...Be5?! instead of 19...Nxe6 or 19...Re8 now Kramnik played 20.Qb3! only move to hold solid lead. But then Giri made third mistake in a row 20...Kg7?! (instead of 20...b6 or 20...a6 or 20...Nxe6 or even 20...Kh7 possibly others) this was maybe bad enough to be called blunder. After 21.Rfd1! again best move, yes, Giri made fouth error in a row 21.Nxe6?! and Kramnik again made only move to keep advantage 22.c5! Giri's position was now lost.
It was just a matter of playing out position with reasonable accuracy to finish win. Here is computer eval on move 27.
Houdini_20_x64: 25/87 2:38:30 97,684,828,630
+10.73 27.Nf4 Qf6 28.Bb2 Bxb2 29.Qxb2 Ne7
+8.60 27.Qb4 Nf6 28.Ne7 Rg8 29.Qc5 Bxd6
+8.36 27.Rxb7 Qc8 28.Rc7 Qd8 29.Re7 Bf6
+8.04 27.Re7 Bf6 28.Nf4 Nxe7 29.dxe7 Bxe7
+6.14 27.Bc4 Rf6 28.Nxf6 Nxf6 29.Qe3 Ng4
+5.51 27.Qe3 g5 28.Ne7 Nxe7 29.dxe7 Qxc7
Kramnik did indeed make huge blunder with 27.Bb2? worst single move in game but win could still be salvaged, here is eval now.
Houdini_20_x64: 27/85 16:43 10,697,893,389
-3.19 27. ... Qxd6 28.Rxb7 Bxb2 29.Qxb2+ Nf6 30.Bc4 g5
Comments above about Kramnik intuition on 27.Bb2? are of course rubbish. Good intuition finds good moves, chess is not about making cute moves it's about making correct ones. In any event Giri continued to play way below his super-genius level (recall he is 17 year old 2700+ player) so Kramnik's win was inevitable.
|Oct-20-11|| ||Ulhumbrus: <bronkenstein: Maybe last line would make some sense if 13.Qxd5 wasn`t check> Then here is an alternative discovered attack on the N on g5: 11...f4 12 Bg4 Nf5|
|Oct-20-11|| ||DrMAL: <Uhlumbrus> Hope those disturbed pawns got proper therapy. When suggesting move or plan it would help you immensely to first check it yourself with computer so that you and others do not waste time with total nonsense trash, cheers.|
|Oct-20-11|| ||sarah wayne: 12...fe4 13.nce4 nf5. was ,of course my suggestion.I didn't say it equalized.How would continue DrMal?For example after 14.ne6.|
|Oct-20-11|| ||DrMAL: <sarah> Sorry I did not see/quote your 12...fxe4 13.Ncxe4 Nf5 this has been suggested before after 12.Bf3 was first played at high level (and probably played in game since, CG database is small it does not have) but I do not remember source.|
On move 14 white has several good options but from position of N on c3 that can later replace on e4 it seems simply 14.Nxf6+ is one of best moves, but it requires careful study, black can re-take either way, in either case 15.Ne4 seems very strong move.
Another is simply to retreat 14.Bg2 to make room for f2-f4 and maybe it is best as intermediate move to Nxf6 but black seems to have even more options here, such as 14...Nd4 (seems best) or 14...a5 to start counterattack maybe even 14...Nxe4 to get N out of way then 15.Nxe4 Nd4 making it into intermediate move.
Still another is 14.Bg5 developing B and pinning black N and yet another is 14.Ne2 to reinforce f4 after later Bg2. There many good plans for both sides, this is good opening to study transition to middlegame for here, Bayonet attack is maybe not as played as much as it should, it has good potential for novelty.
|Oct-20-11|| ||sarah wayne: 14.ne6 be6 15.be6 c6 goes no where.Your statement of more or less equality could be well right.14.ne6 not best.|
|Oct-20-11|| ||bronkenstein: <12...fe4 13.nce4 nf5>, the plan is very logical , some games were played, @ master level at least . One I can remember went on like|
<14. Bg2 a5 >
<15. bxa Rxa5>
<16. Bd2 Ra6 >
<17. c5!? Bd7!?> (BTW on 17...Nxd5!? both 18.Nxh7 and 18.Nxd6 are interesting ) with very complicated game.
|Oct-20-11|| ||Everett: Games Like T Roussel Roozmon vs P Charbonneau, 2008|
9..Ne8 10.b5 f5 is another way to go, with lots of rich play. Personally, I prefer the immediate play back to e8. I don't think Black gets much from compelling g3 nor from getting a N to f4; it's strange that it is no more effective. Basically, pawns should be leading on the K-side for Black, and Ne8 immediately helps the Q-side defense.
|Oct-20-11|| ||DrMAL: Thanx <bronkenstein> as usual you made valuable post, little skirmish on Q-side in line is interesting by itself but with move like Rb1 (right away or later) this could indeed get quite complicated. If you can find game please give to CG so it can be kibitzed on, I use other site where we can simply add PGNs and discuss but it is friend's private site, adding such feature is not appropriate for large site here. In studying for awhile now, playing lines on set to see OTB, if playing white I would still go 18.Nxf6+ one likely continuation is 18...Bxf6 19.Ne4 Nd4 if this happened maybe 20.a4 would be best with Rb1 in mind for advantage. Game with 9...Ne8 line <Everett> presents is also interesting, thanx. But I think retreating N is not as great idea, 10.c5 move in that game is strong as is 10.b5 similar idea with some advantage white but maybe 10.Rb1 move is even more applicable right away there. Opening has many ideas, great for friendly group kibitz, cheers!|
|Oct-20-11|| ||bronkenstein: YW <DrMAL> . I found the mentioned game in 365chess database opening explorer , but since I am clueless about the mechanisms of reloading it here (and a tiny bit sick of CBAitis as well ) ...|
@<Everett> , to my surprise 9...Ne8 scores much better than anything else according to mentioned database , black even has slight plus (compared to 9.Nh5 , 9.a5 , 9.c6 ... with standard catastrophic - for black that is - KID percentages...maybe simply the sample was too small , only 3rd black choice on master+ level).
PS Speaking of KID on his blog few months ago Giri said `...Trouble with KID is that it rarely works...but when it works , it WORKS!` We could rearrange it for this game to `When it works , it WORKS , but the trouble is...` =)
|Oct-21-11|| ||Everett: <Bronkenstein> thanks for the response. I am always going over games or (re)reading Bronstein's material, and an interesting belief he had was that the KG as White was less dangerous than the KID as Black. |
Another thing he harps on is king safety, and how the KID, with a pawn on g6 and the Bc8-h3 diagonal, help keep White from planting a N on f5.
Combined, I think these two statements make both perfect sense and no sense at all. My take is this: KID players general are willing to suffer close-to-losing positional inferiority to have an immediately safe king and active and complex play. At the GM level, one has to play very energetically as Black to hold the balance, moreso than typical openings.
This would mean that 9..Ne8 is the wrong direction in this line. But I feel the move is more flexible, touching c7, d6, f6 and g7 immediately. Suba's concept of "potential" helps me understand the value of this move.
BTW, I've always enjoyed your moniker: it makes me think of a monstrous chess amalgam of Stein and Bronstein.
|Oct-21-11|| ||sarah wayne: 9...Ne8 10.Nd2 transposes to 9.Nd2 Ne8 10.b4.Nakamura has played this as I recall as black.Seems to me last year against Gelfand black winning.|
|Oct-21-11|| ||DrMAL: <bronkenstein: @<Everett> , to my surprise 9...Ne8 scores much better than anything else according to mentioned database> This was surprise to me too, position was equal before 9...Ne8 and it seemed white had advantage after, so I put on computer and here is result, white has small edge.
click for larger view
Houdini_20_x64: 29/67 5:31:41 198,487,263,227
+0.35 10.Rb1 a5 11.b5 b6 12.Bd3 Bg4 13.Rb2 Nf6
+0.32 10.Bd3 f5 11.Qb3 Nf6 12.Re1 a5 13.b5 b6
+0.32 10.Qb3 f5 11.Bd3 Nf6 12.Re1 a5 13.b5 b6
+0.32 10.Re1 f5 11.h3 Nf6 12.Bd3 fxe4 13.Nxe4 Nxe4
+0.32 10.h3 f5 11.Re1 Nf6 12.Bd3 fxe4 13.Nxe4 Nxe4
+0.32 10.a4 f5 11.h3 Nf6 12.Bd3 Nxe4 13.Nxe4 fxe4
White has big space advantage, black pieces are very cramped. When one has space disadvantage general rule is to swap pieces. In going Ne8 however, black can play f5 as is shown in lines, gaining space and offsetting disadvantage that way, but it requires two tempos for maneuver so white still has edge.
|Oct-21-11|| ||haydn20: On the principle patzer see pawn patzer take pawn I tried 20...Nxf6 21. c5 d5 22. Rfd1 Bxc3 23. Rxc3 and seemed to be OK by saving this tempo over 29...Kg7.|
|Oct-21-11|| ||DrMAL: <hayden> LOL this relies on corollary to patzer sees check: a pawn is a pawn. However, after 20...Nxe6 it seems 21.Rfd1 as in game is stronger than 21.c5 lining R with black Q so that now d5 cannot be played (21...d5? 22.cxd5! and either 22...Nd4 23.Rxd4! or 22...Nc5 23.Bxc5! both winning). This is tricky move order, with 21.Rfe1 position cannot transpose.|
|Oct-21-11|| ||bronkenstein: <...chess amalgam of Stein and Bronstein> was actually inspired by Frankenstein , so I will use this occasion to apologize for bad taste. |
PS I was reading `Zurich...` and ´Improvisation @ the chessboard´ (DB`s autobiography ) when I started posting here . Damn books tricked me into playing KID ...
|Oct-21-11|| ||Everett: <bronkenstein: <...chess amalgam of Stein and Bronstein> was actually inspired by Frankenstein , so I will use this occasion to apologize for bad taste.>|
Well, I thought Frankenstein had something to do with it too, thus the "monstrous... amalgam," for Frankenstein's monster certainly was this.
Have you stuck with the KID and found it fits your sensibilities, or found other positions more suitable?
Improvisation... Was that co-authored by Vainstein? Impossible to get a copy of that...
|Oct-21-11|| ||bronkenstein: <Have you stuck with the KID and found it fits your sensibilities, or found other positions more suitable?> I played last serious game ( ie whole tournament ) last november , prior to reading the books and posting here (I stumbled over them in some antique shop in Belgrade , both in Russian...AFAIK `Improvisation...` has never been translated , and yea ,that one is co-authored by Vainstein).|
So I was testing KID only in blitz games so far , and learning from these Bronstein`s books + Bologan`s one , planning it to be alternative (in the beginning) repertoire to my old Volga(Benko).
PS I never saw an opening with SO BAD statistics , no matter what database/Elo trashold I use...recent EuroTeamCh kinda justified my fears , I cant remember black`s victory (out of maybe 15-20 KIDs total) , Radjabov only drew one , Mamedjarov also drew one against much weaker opponent , meantime draws and mostly loses, with lots of black suffering.
Not that I am getting that impression from books I am reading, post mortems and Houdini lines during the games, but somehow...It looks that , practically , OTB, opening requires much more from black , white has his standard Qflank campaign , and if black fails to be brilliant and inspired on that day...Au revoir...Looks like lots of hard OTB work demanding (I guess Kasparov said something like that when asked why he dropped KID - around 2000 I guess...his Slavs , Grunfelds and Nimzos which he played before retirement seem to be much more fashionable eversince).
PPS Again, all of this is just info from the elite , nothing to do with me + W/O a single serious game played. But it looks scary ...
|Oct-22-11|| ||pawnexpress: The coordination of Kramnik's pieces is incredible.|
|Oct-22-11|| ||Everett: <I guess Kasparov said something like that when asked why he dropped KID - around 2000 I guess...his Slavs , Grunfelds and Nimzos which he played before retirement seem to be much more fashionable eversince).>|
I think Kasparov said that one can only pour their heart into one opening (as opposed to "normal" preparation in other openings) and for him that was the Najdorf. Perhaps with the vast improvement with computers, this is not the case as much anymore... Nonetheless, I feel players like Gallagher, Radjabov, Smirin, Bronstein, Geller, Gligoric, etc, all score relatively well with the KID because they were slaves to it for some time, playing little else vs d4. Without that devotion, I think you are right that the stats paint a grim picture.
|Oct-23-11|| ||Nf3em: Anis Giri took a lesson from one of the <Giants of Strategy>!|
|Oct-24-11|| ||bronkenstein: <strategy> is something from the previous century , today we use modern terms such as <computer preparation conducted by team of well payed GM seconds>. Of course , feel free to use those old , romantic words if you wish =)|
|Nov-09-13|| ||Peligroso Patzer: According to <Kramnik: move by move>, by LAKDAWALA, Cyrus, Everyman Chess ©2012, at p. 79, Kramnik had originally prepared the theoretical novelty <13. Bg2> for this game but “got his analysis mixed up” at the board and so instead chose <13. Ba3>. |
Kramnik later used <13. Bg2> successfully in Kramnik vs Grischuk, 2012.
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