< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 4 ·
|Feb-01-12|| ||paulalbert: I looked at exf3 immediately with the idea of a fork possibility which I saw, so didn't even consider anything else like h5. My inclination is to simplify as much as possible to a clearly winning position, eliminating as much risk as possible of any counterplay or blunder possibilities, a pragmatic human approach. Even if the h5 line somehow might be evaluated higher by a computer, I'd rather get rid of the Rs and just be a whole N up for a P with a low risk technical win, a way of thinking I see in the annotations to GM games.|
|Feb-01-12|| ||johnlspouge: < <Once> wrote: [snip] And I think I've worked out (at least in part) why some of us chose one line and some of went for the other. [snip] >|
Today, your chess analysis is <almost> as good as your writing, <Once> :)
My process was a little different from your description, however. Nowadays, my time is limited to looking for convincing candidates, so today, I did not even look at 37...exf3. I recognized that unless White gives up Nf3 without a fight, 37...h5 denies Rg4 the g-file to stop a coronation, leading to the main variation
37...h5 38.Rh4 exf3 39.Rxc4 fxg2 40.any g1=Q
In other words, I recognized instantly the important pattern of denying a coronation file to a R.
|Feb-01-12|| ||kevin86: Black gives up the exchange and regains a rook...the extra piece wins easily.|
|Feb-01-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <Morfishine> 37...exf3 38. Rg3 fxg2 39. b3 Rc3! is a possible continuation.|
Keep in mind that after 37...exf3 38. Rg3 fxg2 39. Rxg2 Rxc2+ is curtains for White!
|Feb-01-12|| ||David2009: C Slingerland vs S Van Eijk, 2011 Black 37...?|
Analyse the forcing moves: 37...Rxc2+? 38.Kxc2 Ne3+ 39.Kb3 Nxg4 40.hxg4 exf3 41.gxf3 leads to a lost K+P endgame for Black.
Back to the drawing board. 37...exf3 38.Rxc4 f2 wins the Rook: 39.Ke2 f1=Q+ 40.Kxf1 Ne3+ 41.Ke2 Nxc4 42.b3 leaves Black with what should be a won
ending. With Crafty End Game Trainer currently still unavailable it is not worth inputting the colours-reversed position to practice winning it.
The advent of the Fischer clock means that, increasingly, games are now played out to a finish in one sitting without an adjournment: I welcome this.
Adjournments used to be the curse of club chess when I played it in England in the sixties/seventies/eighties. The French National League has the very civilised time limit of 40 moves in 2 hours plus one hour for the rest of the game, with games starting at 14.15. Now that I am older and greyer and think so much more slowly, this time limit suits me very well. Time to
Characteristically rich posts by the various regulars. I like 37...h5! but OTB I would have gone for 37...exf3 if I had seen it.
<Once>: <some people prefer to start analysing candidate moves before they have established the themes and motifs latent in the position.> Well put, and one of the key differences between puzzle-solving and over-the-board play. OTB one has a plan (vague or concrete according to the position) and the candidate moves one cosiders are generated largely by this plan. One mark of real talent is the ability to think outside the box i.e. spot opportunities not generated by the plan. On his way to beating the dukes of Brunswick Morphy vs Duke Karl / Count Isouard, 1858 at the opera, Morphy moved his Queen a second time before completing his development.
|Feb-01-12|| ||dzechiel: Black to move (37...?). Material even. "Medium/Easy."|
White must think that his knight is safe because of the hanging black rook. But looks can be deceiving!
Black wins a piece for a pawn with...
37...exf3 38 Rxc4 f2
Not 38...fxg2, as after 39 Rg4 white would now be winning.
39 Ke2 f1=Q+ 40 Kxf1 Ne3+ 41 Ke2 Nxc4
This should be it. Time to check.
|Feb-01-12|| ||doubledrooks: Count me among those who went with 37...exf3 38. Rxc4 f2 39. Ke2 f1=Q+ 40. Kxf1 Ne3+ and Nxc4|
|Feb-01-12|| ||rapidcitychess: Black to move
C Slingerland vs S Van Eijk, 2011
click for larger view
The main things that immediately stand out to me is the advanced e-pawn, the rook that is pinning that pawn, and finally the hanging knight. I would really like it if the rook was undefended , or at least not on the 4th rank. Perhaps 37..h5?
Running through the replies quickly obviously Rf4 or Rg5 hangs the rook, Rg3 or Rg6, hangs the knight. Therefore, the problematic move is Rh4.
My immediate thought is (38.Rh4) 38...exf3 39.Rxc4 fxg2 0-1 Nothing can stop the pawn as far as I see.
Time to check.
|Feb-01-12|| ||Rook e2: Funny, I actually know Caroline Slingerland.|
|Feb-01-12|| ||Memethecat: I dunno, I reckon you h5ers just like to over-complicate matters 8>)|
|Feb-01-12|| ||Marmot PFL: Nice promotion combo with knight fork at the end. Found it after deciding that 37...Rxc2+ went nowhere.|
|Feb-01-12|| ||chrisowen: <Marmot PFL> <Memethecat> Style in abundance overall up down |
ok it was a bygone conclusion the vague notion sails in blacked
backed one track it and in pocket <nf3 ooh ball h5 rant rook
building dam sell like it triple in ghoul ie's right c2
hoping fork> rook loose inspector feld hate to say it but in go
exf3! Sallad in black catapult ease step eta in come it her
path in free domain to gild the lily f1 it hope rapid exchange
it pain for big knight ale in rc4 up h5 man at arms use
banks g3 oh at for ground inhibit exf3 lubber sheet
chalked off 01 I rolled for investing h5 funded grateful see runs
ring back memorise Van Nelle shag...
|Feb-01-12|| ||solskytz: seconds - some 30 or 40 of them...|
|Feb-01-12|| ||Dr. J: <Once> & <Memethecat>: I think we can to some extent test your hypotheses:|
For my part I looked at the initial position and thought "White can be manoeuvred int a Knight fork", so, after discovering that 37...Rxc2+ is inadequate, I finally found 38...f2. By contrast, I suppose those who found 37...h5 were thinking some version of "Black can Queen the pawn".
So my test is this: did those who eventually found 37...h5 also first look at 37...Rxc2+?
|Feb-01-12|| ||morfishine: <LoveThatJoker> Yes, white is lost no matter what. He loses a piece in either line no matter what. Thanks for looking and good job plus nice post!|
|Feb-01-12|| ||gawain: All I see is a knight fork after 37...Rxc2+ 38 Kxc2 Ne3 but this isn't going to do it.|
Oh, I see, the pawn will get through.
|Feb-01-12|| ||BOSTER: <Once> <37...h5 and... g2 pawn can't be stopped.
What else can white play?>
After 37...h5 white can play 38.Ne5+ fxe5.
|Feb-01-12|| ||eternaloptimist: 33...e4! restricted the mobility of slingerland's & ended up setting up a trap which she fell for hook, line & sinker. Nice combo to set up the fork!|
|Feb-01-12|| ||Rosbach: The knight will do the job with a fork...|
|Feb-01-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <morfishine> Thanks for the compliment, man. I hope your Wednesday is going great.|
|Feb-01-12|| ||galdur: I'm very disappointed in you guys and I´m pretty disturbed by missing 37..h5. I was seduced by an easy win but I should have looked further for a more effeicint win.|
|Feb-01-12|| ||psmith: First thought was 37…e3+ but that doesn’t seem to go anywhere. Then I was tempted by 37…Rxc2+ 38. Kxc2 Ne3+ but that just leads to an even position after all the captures. Then I played around with something like 37… exf3 38. Rxc4 f2 39. Ke2 Ne3, but saw that this left Rc7+ open. Then the light dawned… 37…exf3 38. Rxc4 f2 39. Ke2 f1/Q+ 40. Kxf1 Ne3+ and wins a piece. Must be it.|
And... I missed 37... h5! Oh well, I found the game line.
|Feb-01-12|| ||Patriot: <galdur> 37...h5 is very nice. But, a win is a win!|
|Feb-02-12|| ||M.Hassan: "Medium/Easy" Black to play 37...?
Instantly I thought to try 37...e3+ and with the follow up of the e pawn to promotion. It is not easy and promoting square e1 is guarded by the Knight on f3. So? what to do?. Eliminate this Knight and head towards f1:
<If 38.gxf3 Rxg4 39.fxg4 Black will be a knight up>
And Black IS a Knight up and should win
|Feb-02-12|| ||Once: <Dr. J: did those who eventually found 37...h5 also first look at 37...Rxc2+?>|
I looked first at 37...Rxc2+. When that didn't work I looked at 37...exf3. After 37...exf3 I looked at 38. Rxc4 exg2 39. Rg4. That didn't work, so I figured that I had to stop the rook from returning to g4. So then I rewound back to the beginning, found 37...h5, checked all the responses and was a happy bunny.
I didn't look at 38...f2. On principle it seemed wrong to try to queen so close to the white king. But if 37...h5 hadn't worked that would have been next on the list.
<BOSTER: After 37...h5 white can play 38.Ne5+ fxe5.>
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