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Magnus Carlsen vs Boris Gelfand
"Cooked Schallopps" (game of the day Jul-13-2015)
Tal Memorial (2011), Moscow RUS, rd 2, Nov-17
Slav Defense: Quiet Variation. Schallopp Defense (D12)  ·  1-0


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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Nov-19-11  frogbert: <My point is that Magnus's opening preparation so far has been subpar. Something any impartial observer would agree I think.>

oh, i would certainly agree that carlsen's openings have been subpar. d5 wasn't prep from carlsen - it was something he found over the board. his prep was exhausted before that point in the game. and in later games d5 will be useless since it's known that black can more or less force a draw there (for instance after Nd4 instead of Bc3 as carlsen played, there's a forced repetition).

also, i would certainly not be unhappy if carlsen had more punch in the opening part of the game - my point is that he's very good at getting the most out of his positions.

Nov-19-11  frogbert: <What are the 3 winning positions?>

i was not talking about after the opening, but during the games.

1) against gelfand obviously

2) before move 37 and 39 against karjakin today

3) i assume the end position against kramnik was winning after Kb8 instead of Kd8.

if you want to, we can dig into the two last positions (or the one you doubt was winning) later. assuming you think none of them were winning. i'm not 100% sure about the kramnik one, but it looks that way.

Nov-20-11  Hesam7: <frogbert: if you want to, we can dig into the two last positions (or the one you doubt was winning) later>

But how? You said engine analysis and GM commentary are unhelpful, if we disagree how should we resolve it?

Nov-21-11  frogbert: hesam7, i basically have the option of using the combination of my chess understanding and engines, with the latter doing most the work. i've mostly seen shallow gm analysis of <any> tal memorial game so far - including that of the very read-worthy shipov. live analysis by naiditsch/shipov or hasty comments made by "littlepeasant" (his icc nick) for chessbase isn't too revealing. i haven't looked at anish giri's website yet - he seems to be more thorough than most others in addition to being a 2700+ gm. i'm certainly inclined to listen to what he says, for instance about kramnik-carlsen.

and if you and i disagree, we can simply "play" the position out until the disagreement disappears. i don't think i've claimed engine analysis to be unuseful in getting knowledge about a position. but arguing whether +x.y means some side is winning or not obviously isn't what i have in mind. :o)

in which of kramnik-carlsen and carlsen-karjakin do you think there <never> existed a winning position for carlsen, btw? you can offer that insight just as a start, can't you?

Nov-22-11  frogbert: you seemingly misunderstood this comment:

<neither do computer lines that confirm that gelfand had a draw [help much].>

such computer lines don't "help" in the sense that i've never questioned that gelfand had enough for a draw at various points; for instance the forced simplification to an ending with 2B + R for white against Q + N (following Bxg3+ and Rf1+) which carlsen assessed as drawn.

what's really interesting is that gelfand played Rg1?! instead of the mentioned simplification, <even> if he saw that line and considered it equal. why? my guess is that it's because he felt that he'd been better previously; numerous times i've fell for the same illogical desire to continue playing for a win even after any advantage objectively is gone - because i've (felt that i've) been better earlier in the game. it typically ends badly...

i don't claim that carlsen knowingly tries to take advantage of such psychological elements, but i do think he more than once has benefitted from them.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Richard Taylor: Gelfand made all the play there. Good thing he is playing the World Champs. I cant see how he lost that.

Carlsen didn't play in the WC cycle so perhaps he will never be the World Champion. He has talent but he cant take things for granted. He is mainly a good "positional" player (a bit) like Capablanca or Fischer.

Premium Chessgames Member
  lost in space: <From my perspective it is nonsense to ask/look for perfect play in computer WCC tournaments.>

You may not belief it, but I agree in this. My post was more trying to explain that humans never ever will play perfect chess-at least I hope so. This leave us the room for the brilliant players and brilliant moves - and after a while we find that this brilliant move was nonsense. Love it

Dec-23-11  regi sidal: Similar final position:
D Gormally vs Sutovsky, 2005
Dec-31-12  fgh: That b7 pawn reminds me of the following game: Anand vs Lautier, 1997
Premium Chessgames Member
  Garech: Wow, how has this game not yet made GOTD? A travesty!


Premium Chessgames Member
  Penguincw: < Garech: Wow, how has this game not yet made GOTD? A travesty! >

Almost 5 months after that comment, it's GOTD now!

Analysis of this game:

Premium Chessgames Member
  andrewjsacks: Carlsen as Alekhine, in a way. Magnus' style does not produce many games like this, but this one demonstrates the tactical insights and marvels he is capable of creating.
Premium Chessgames Member
  RandomVisitor: After 28.Ne4, who stands better?

1: Magnus Carlsen - Boris Gelfand, Tal Memorial 2011

click for larger view

Analysis by Deep Rybka 4.1 x64:

<[+0.00] d=22 28...Kxb7> 29.a4 Kb8 30.a5 Qd7 31.Qxd7 Nxd7 32.Bc4 Ne5 33.Bxe5 Bxe5 34.Rxf7 Rgc1 35.Ba6 Rc6 36.Rf8+ Kc7 37.Rc8+ Kd7 38.Nc5+ Kd6 39.Ne4+ Kd7 40.Nc5+ Kd6 41.Ne4+ Kd7 42.Nc5+ Kd6 43.Ne4+ Kd7

Jul-13-15  Imran Iskandar: I can't believe this! For the second day in a row, one of my submitted puns has been made into a GOTD!

This game was just waiting to be made GOTD, highlighted by Gelfand's attack with Carlsen brilliantly defending.

Jul-13-15  trnbg: I don't get the pun...
Jul-13-15  pedro99: It might just be Monday, but can someone explain the cool but enigmatic 24.g5 and why Black didn't simply take it?
Jul-13-15  Nerwal: <It might just be Monday, but can someone explain the cool but enigmatic 24.g5 and why Black didn't simply take it?>

Variations are complicated but the basic idea is that ♕h4+ may be annoying in some lines, and after 24. g5 ♕xg5 White answers with the strong centralizing 25. ♕e4 which was impossible with the queen still at e7.

Premium Chessgames Member
  piltdown man: What a beautiful performance.
Jul-13-15  FairyPromotion: One of the greatest defensive performances of all time! It is hard to believe that after 24... Rdd1 the game is equal. Gelfand wasted a lot of time trying to find a blow that wasn't there, but after Magnus found all the necessary moves, Boris couldn't adjust back to thinking about his own weaknesses, and his position crumbled very quickly.

This was one of the very first games I followed live, and I remeber that GM Naiditsch (commenting on chessdom) was certain that Gelfand was winning. I think it was at move 26. Qe2 when he saw that move as engine's top suggestion, and claimed that that move made no sense from a humans's perspective, and that white had to give up the queen with 26. Qxd1. When Magnus played the move, he was quite surprised, and claimed that even though the engines evaluate the position as equal, he would immediately accept any draw offer by black. As the game progressed, and the fact that black had nothing started to sink in, he didn't hide his admiration for Carlsen's play, which was very quick and accurate in an extremely complicated and unbalanced position.

Premium Chessgames Member
  kevin86: The minor pieces dominate!
Jul-13-15  mruknowwho: Two en passant captures in the same game. Holy cow.
Premium Chessgames Member
  RandomVisitor: Perhaps black could improve at moves 22 and 24, but not by much:

1: Magnus Carlsen - Boris Gelfand, Tal Memorial 2011

click for larger view

Analysis by Deep Rybka 4.1 x64:

<[-0.19] d=24 22...Rd7> 23.Bc3 Qg5 24.Rh3 Qxg4 25.a4 Bb4 26.Nd4 Rc7 27.Qd3 Bxc3 28.bxc3 Kxb7 29.Qc2 Rc5 30.Qb2 Rg5 31.Bd5+ Rxd5 32.Qxa1 Rg5 33.Qh1 Qe4 34.Rf3 f6 35.Qh7 Qe7 36.Qg8 a5 37.Rh3 Ka6

click for larger view

Rybka 4.1 x64:

<[-0.20] d=23 24...Rd7> 25.Bxf7 Rdd1 26.Ng3 Bxe3+ 27.Rxe3 Qxf7+ 28.Rf3 Qe6 29.Ne4 Qc4 30.Kg3 Kxb7 31.Nf2 Qc7+ 32.Kh3 Rd6 33.Qe4+ Qc6 34.Bxg7 Rxa2 35.Rf7+ Nd7 36.Bc3 Ra4 37.Qe8 Ka6 38.Kh2 Rh4+ 39.Kg1 Kb7

Premium Chessgames Member
  RandomVisitor: After 26...Rg1:

1: Magnus Carlsen - Boris Gelfand, Tal Memorial 2011

click for larger view

Analysis by Deep Rybka 4.1 x64:

<[+1.89] d=22 27.Qb5> Qxb7 28.Qe8+ Nc8 29.Bc4 Qc7 30.Bf1 Rgxf1+ 31.Nxf1 Qc4 32.Kg1 Qxa2 33.Qxf7 Qa6 34.Bxg7 Ra5 35.Bf6 Qd3 36.Qe6 Ra6 37.Be5 Bxe5 38.Qxe5+

Jul-30-16  j4jishnu: Memorable Defence!
Jul-31-16  1971: This is so good I almost want to cry, honestly. Just sublime mastery. Not only the conception but the technique to carry it through. They're going to marvel at these games for hundreds of years. Carlsen's name will always be mentioned in chess posterity just as Morphy and Fischer. It's a wonder he isn't talked about as the greatest of all time yet, I think it's because he's still so young and he's a present player, but's getting hard to argue. As a chess fan that loves the game I just have to say thanks for all these games and for dedicating himself to maintaining such excellence and creating art.
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