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Julian Michael Hodgson vs Simen Agdestein
Lloyds Bank op (1986), London, rd 7
Hungarian Opening: General (A00)  ·  1-0
ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

Click Here to play Guess-the-Move
Given 9 times; par: 39 [what's this?]

Annotations by John Nunn.      [5 more games annotated by Nunn]

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find similar games 638 more games of S Agdestein
sac: 21.Ne5 PGN: download | view | print Help: general | java-troubleshooting

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Nov-20-11  FlashinthePan: I may still be missing something but, what if Black simply plays 21... Rhf8 to prevent 22.Rf7?
Nov-20-11  sevenseaman: Perhaps the "Insane" label was well-merited after all. The Nunn annotation dubiously confirms that the solver may have been right. It acts like an opiate and tends to keep him from post-game open-minded analysis.
Nov-20-11  CHESSTTCAMPS: To play the the puzzle position against Crafty EGT, use the following link:

http://www.chessvideos.tv/endgame-t...

Crafty finds a flaw in my A line. The line 21.Ne5 Rhf8 (also suggested by other kibitzers) will require a new link.

Nov-20-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  Marmot PFL: <CHESSTTCAMPS> I couldn't beat it.
Nov-20-11  Patriot: <scormus> Thanks! I agree with you. I would say that instinct helps guide strong players to meaningful moves.
Nov-20-11  ounos: For some reason, the move and a couple points about it, clicked to me in less than 2 seconds. I'm not kidding! (But then, the main point was obvious to a degree, it's the details that need to he worked out, lets see)
Nov-20-11  ounos: Wow, 22. ...Bf3, a gem for a defence
Nov-20-11  CHESSTTCAMPS: <Marmot PFL> Neither could I. I believe the position should be drawn with best play, but there are many ways for white to lose if he overreaches. White starts a pawn down and the black knight can be dangerous in many lines.
Nov-20-11  psmith: I spent a lot of time on this and came up with this:

21. Ne5 leaps out at me. Does it work? 21… Kxe5 22. Rf7 Bd5 (forced to stop 23. f4# [I now see I didn’t notice the Bf3 defense…]) 23. c5 followed by 24. f4# (23…f4 24. gxf4 is still #). 21…Rhf8 22. f4 Bxg2 23. Rh7 (idea 24. Rdd7) Bd5 24. cxd5 cxd5 25. Nd7+ Kg6 26. Nxf8 Rxf8 27. Rxb7 should win, though there may be better. 21…Raf8 22. f4 Bxg2 23. Rxb7 (idea Rdd7) Bd5 (23… c5 24. Rxa7 is not better) 24. cxd5 cxd5 25. Nd7+ Kg6 26. Nxf8+ Rxf8 27. Rxa7 again should win. BUT:
21…Bxg2 22. Rf7+ Kg5 (22…Kxe5 23. f4# again) 23. Rg7+ Kh5 (23… Kf6 24. Rg6+ Kxe5 25. f4#; 23…Kf6 24. Rg6+ Ke7 25. Rd7+ 26. Ke8 Rxe6 27. Kf8 Rf7+ 28. Kg8 Rg6#; #; 23…Kf6 24. Rg6+ Ke7 25. Rd7+ Kf8 26. Rxe6 and mate is unstoppable). Black’s King is trapped, the only question is how to get a piece into position to check and mate. I struggled with this and didn’t crack it. The best I came up with was 24. Rd4 (24. Nd3 e5; 24. Nf7 Raf8; 24. Ng6 e5) Be4 25. f3 Rhg8 and I couldn’t break through.

Nov-20-11  psmith: <CHESSTTCAMPS>: Nice analysis.
Nov-20-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  Pawn and Two: 21.Ne5 certainly looks strong, but Fritz indicates a very probable draw after 21.Ne5 Kxe5 22.Rf7, (.47) (31 ply) 22...Bf3! 23.Bxf3 Rgd8 24.Rfd7 Rxd7 25.Rxd7 Kf6 26.Rxb7 Rd8 27.Bxc6 Nc1, (.36) (.30) 28.Bd7 Nxb3 29.Rxb3 Rxd7 30.f4 Rc7.

Also, after 21.Ne5 Kxe5 22.Rf7 Bd5, Fritz again indicates a very probable draw: (.49) (31 ply) 22...Bd5 23.c5 Bf3 24.Bxf3 Raf8 25.Rxb7 f4+ 26.gxf4+ Rxf4 27.Bxc6 Nb4 28.Bh1 Nc2+ 29.Ke2 Rc8, (.37) (27 ply) 30.c6 Nd4+ 31.Ke3 Nf5+ 32.Kd3 Rd4+ 33.Ke2 Rxd1 34.Kxd1 Nd4 35.Rxa7 Nxc6 36.Bxc6 Rxc6, (.36) (28 ply) 37.Kd2 Rd6+ 38.Kc3 Rc6+ 39.Kb2 Kd6 40.Ra4 Kd5, or (.36) (28 ply) 37.Ra2 Kd6 38.Kd2+ Ke7 39.Re2 Rd6+ 40.Kc2 Rd4 41.f3 Rf4.

Last week's Sunday "insane level" puzzle, Short vs Anand, 1993 was for White to play, but through an almost insanely difficult variation, it turned out that Black could draw!

This week's "insane level" puzzle is again for White to play. However, by a very difficult line of defense, it again appears that Black can save the day and draw!

Could it be that it is actually these draws by Black that are the correct solutions to these two puzzles, and the real insane part of these two "insane level" puzzles!

Nov-20-11  Yodaman: I had Crafty play black as well ( http://www.chessvideos.tv/endgame-t... ) and it's a draw.
Nov-21-11  sevenseaman: <psmith> A good, hard worked analysis.

From your various ideas I got this;

<21. Ne5 Bg2 22. Rf7+ Kg5 23. Rg7+ Kh5 24. Rd4> (plan Rh4#)<24...Be4 25. f3 c5 26. g4+ Kh4>(fxg4 releases the R, Rxe4) <27. Ng6+ Kh3 28. Nf4+ Kh4 or Kxh2 29. Rd2 (Rd2+)> winning


click for larger view

I leave it to you and others to pick holes if there are any.

Nov-21-11  Al2009: <Patriot>
To be honest, it took me a minute or something, to discover 21.Ne5!, but just because Chessgames "warned" me before, like saying: "Ehi guy! Here you can find a very difficult and winning move for White!", and then I immediately thought: "Ah ah, let me look for a sac, or unusual move, or similar!" And so, mental attitude is very important. As you said, unfortunately no chess-puzzle column tells you how was clock situation for both players, and other relevant information, because in a real game you have to spend no more than some minutes (average) for each move (unless you are really sure that you have a decisive move/situation before you, and you can allow yourself to spend 30/40 minutes or so to find it). I'm sure that, in such a position, in a real game, many players (including myself) would have quickly played moves like 21. Rxb7, or 21. Nh4 (with idea 21... Bxg2 22. Nxg2 and then Nf4/Rd6) which are playable moves as well...
Nov-21-11  Al2009: By the way, on August 1971, during his famous tv interview by Dick Cavett, after his match with Larsen, Bobby Fischer (who was at that time on top of his career, miles away any living chessplayer) said something very important about this topic. He said that in a real game one of the main problem is to keep stamina at good level, and understand HOW and WHEN spend energies and time to think, devote more time to one move, and less to another, that's a big problem (as Bobby himself admitted). He suggested to do sports like swimming, tennis, etc., in order to stay in good shape, also because he used to stay and think all time at chessboard, even when his challenger was thinking, but his method is very energy-expensive. Moreover, in a game Fischer used to allow himself no more than 3 long times of thinking, for no more than 30 (max 40) minutes each (in classical tournament games 2h and half x 40 moves). Suetin wrote that Fischer's method was one of the reasons of his success...
Nov-21-11  CHESSTTCAMPS: <Yodaman: I had Crafty play black as well ...>

Excellent idea, and thanks for providing the link. What I learned by playing the black side was that I was on the right track for maximizing the chances with white. On my first attempt with black, I played too passively and walked into a nice little trap:


click for larger view

From the diagram I played 1...a4? and Crafty gets the KO!

Nov-21-11  CHESSTTCAMPS: <Yodaman: I had Crafty play black as well ( http://www.chessvideos.tv/endgame-t... ) and it's a draw.>

Hmmm ... I played the two Crafty links against each other and white won a close R&P ending with the connected g+h pawns.

Nov-21-11  psmith: This morning I looked at this a bit with computer aid (just old Fritz 5.32). In the 21..Bxg2 line oldFritz finds simply: 21. Ne5 Bxg2 22. f4! Rhf8 23. R1d2 Nc3 24. Rxb7 Bd5 (otherwise Rdd7) 25. Nd7+ Kg6 26. Nxf8+ Rxf8 27. cxd5 winning the exchange.
Nov-21-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  Gilmoy: <BOSTER: <Gllmoy> <real players are almost never solving the puzzle-problem>. This is wrong. Even G.Kasparov liked to do this.>

It would be nice if you could cite Kasparov's quote to support that ^_^

Nov-21-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  moronovich: I once was on a pub with the late
Tony Miles and he happened to love puzzlesolving.
And I know that many GM does the same.
Nov-21-11  Pepperpot: On the roof, you mean?
Nov-21-11  BOSTER: <Gllimoy> <real players are almost never solving the puzzle-problem>.

How I understand this site has many <real players > ,and they during many years try to solve puzzles.

Nov-21-11  BOSTER: <AI2009> <hint> To make the text is more readable separate different part of it by blank line,or two.
Nov-22-11  Al2009: Puzzlesolving is one of main training
systems to improve the level of ANY player.

It is suggested by even the most historically "venerated" GM and trainers, like Alexander Kotov, in his famous book: "Think, Play and Train like a Grandmaster".

But there are many and many GM who usually solve chess puzzles, as a way to improve their tactical skills, or at least keep them always in good shape.

Nov-24-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  Gilmoy: <BOSTER: How I understand this site has many <real players>,and they during many years try to solve puzzles.>

<Al2009: Puzzlesolving is one of main training systems to improve the level of ANY player.>

Sure, everybody solves puzzles NOC (not on clock), in practice or training. Vishy spends a couple of hours each morning doodling over dozens of recent super-GM games, constantly playing his own Guess-the-Move. (Tal used the other guy's clock :)

That's, of course, very different from solving your own position OTB (which implies on your own clock) as if it were a completely fresh puzzle. I'm glad to see that we're no longer contending that aspect. (Obviously, there are extenuating circumstances where you do exactly that; esp. after your opponent just blundered, or otherwise deviated outside your previously-calculated move tree.)

In fact, we never disagreed that players must solve puzzles <during their own games>; we just locate that mental effort at different times. <BOSTER> defended (possibly without meaning to) the viewpoint that 24.__ is when a GM first starts to solve the <24.__?> puzzle; I adhere that he solves it around 18-21.__ (and sees it first, and many other lines in case his opponent doesn't get that far). So we always agreed that he's still solving it.

It would be very intriguing to see clock time spent on (and before) historical brillant moves, or throughout "immortal" combos. My guess is that the Immortal winner did the typical long-think trance (up to a full hour!) several moves in advance, but once he started his combo, it was mostly bang-bang-bang, sacking 2-3 pieces with only a few seconds each, just to verify <(I originally had "double-check" here, haha)> that the line still holds. After all, he's <already> seen it all, or he wouldn't even be doing the first k-1 sacs. Bonus if the opponent didn't see (enough of) it; then you just think (and breathe) on his time, while he's got shock-panic lightening his complexion.

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