< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 4 ·
|Feb-12-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <Jimfromprovidence> PS. It's interesting how in the 24...Kg5 line I found mating lines and material winning lines, while in the 24...Qe5 line I found a ton of mates!|
|Feb-12-12|| ||Archerforthelord: im looking at the analysis and i still dont fully grasp... chess is a wonderful game.|
|Feb-12-12|| ||trnbg: What do you think? Did Berg prepare this (the Q sac and the ensuing variations) in advance? Hard to imagine that he found all this on the board...|
|Feb-12-12|| ||Jimfromprovidence: <LTJ> You put in some excellent work.|
It took me the longest time to convince myself that black's position was hopeless after 23...Qa5. Now, as you said, if 24...Qe5 then 25 Ne4.
click for larger view
That move accomplishes three things: it protects the rook, keeps the king off of g5 and opens up the 3rd rank for the mating net of Be2+, followed by Rh3#. Black has no answer as you have demonstrated.
Just a couple of small suggestions; your numbering is off by one move in you’re a-d lines.
Also, consider revising your b line <b) 26...Bg4 27. Bg6+ Kh4 28. g3+! Qxg3 (28...Kh3 29. Nf2#) 29. hxg3+ Kh3 30. Nf2#> because the knight on e4 blocks Bg6+.
|Feb-12-12|| ||dzechiel: White to play (17?). Material even. "Insane."
This position is curious, in that both the white queen and the white knight on e6 are under attack. There's no good way to save both (17 Qh3 Bxe6 18 Qxe6 Qxc3), so it looks like white will lose a piece.
How did we get here? Black's last move must have been 16...Nd7-e5, brining about the situation? But that only begs the question, "What was white thinking when he catptured on e6?". He must have been thinking queen sacrifice.
With that in mind, I think the key move must be...
17 Nxf8 Nxd3
Not capturing the queen just goes down the exchange.
18 Ng6+ Kh7
The only other move, 18...Kg6 allows 19 Nxe7+ and 20 Rb3 and 21 Bxd3, getting a rook and two pieces for the queen.
So far this has been pretty forced. I looked at this position for some time before deciding that
was necessary. White has about even material (rook and knight for the queen) and threatens the bishop on e7, as well as the push of the e-pawn.
But this is also the stage where I couldn't decide what black's best defence was, and decided to check and see how the game finished.
"Insane" indeed. A very cool ending emerging a knight up. Berg is to be commended for his fine play.
Looking forward to Monday.
|Feb-12-12|| ||agb2002: The material is even.
Black threatens 17... Nxd3 and 17... Bxe6.
The first idea that comes to mind is the defense 17.Qh3, but after 17... Bxe6 18.Qxe6 Qxc3 19.Qxe7 Ng6 20.Qxd6 (20.Be1 Qxc2) 20... Nxh4 - +.
Another option is 17.Nxf8 Nxd3 18.Ng6+
A) 18... Kh7 19.Rb3 Qc5 20.Bxd3 Kxg6 21.e5+ Kh5 22.exf6 is unclear.
B) 18... Kg8 19.Nxe7+ Kf7 20.Rb3 Qc5 21.Bxd3 Kxe7 22.Nd5+ and White seems to have compensation for the material.
I don't know, but 17.Nxf8 looks preferable to 17.Qh3.
|Feb-12-12|| ||tacticalmonster: candidate: 17 Nxf8
17 Nxd3 18 Ng6+ Kh7:
a) 19 Bxd3 Kxg6 20 e5+ Kf7 21 exf6 Bxf6 22 Nd5 with lots of compensation for the queen
b) 19 Nxe7 Ne5 (19 Qxc3 20 Bxd3- Black either drop the knight or get mated) 20 Rb3 Qc5 21 Bxf6 gxf6 22 Nd5 Qxc2 23 Rg3 Be6 24 Nxf6+ Kh8
I looked at the position for 45 min and I finally convinced myself this puzzle isn't one of those " calculate and win ". The position still need to play out.
|Feb-12-12|| ||LIFE Master AJ: Brilliant. On a scale of 1-to-10, give it a NINE ... especially if its all sound.|
|Feb-12-12|| ||James D Flynn: I took some time looking at this position before my computer went into quiece: material is even bt White appears to be in dire straits, his Q on d3 is attacked also his N on e6 he can defend by Qh3 but then the Q appears to be overloaded. It isn't that simple: the B on d7 is unprotected as is the P on b7. If 17.Qh3 Bxe6 18.Qxe6 Qxc3 19.Qxe7 Rf7 and it doesn't look like a position where White has a clear win. My first thought had been 17.Nxf8 Nxd3 18.Ng6+ Kh7(Kg8 19.Nxe7+ Kf7 20.Ncd5 and with R, N for the Q the N on d3 attacked and a dangerous build up of pieces attacking f6 White looks to be winning) 19.Bd3 Qxc3 20.Nxe7 which seems playable and probably better for White but I did not see a clear win. Now for the game.|
|Feb-12-12|| ||James D Flynn: Black was far too accomodating with 19....Kxg6 as I said in my previous post Qxc3 makes it tough to find the win. Even on the next move Kh5 is a real lemon and likely the losing move: Kf7 makes White's task much harder. Black could also try 24... Qe1+ 25.Rd1 Qh5 offering a draw. White would then have to look for a square for his K on h2 or better play Nf6+ and win the Bon d7 with decisive material plus.|
|Feb-12-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <Jimfromprovidence> Thanks for the kind suggestions! You're absolutely correct: I fudged the numbering by one move after in the 24...Qe5 and I messed up the b line with ...Bg4, Bg6+ (Illegal!). |
The reason this is, as I'm sure you can understand, is because of the solving of the situation you found based solely on your diagram and not moving the pieces by hand. The huge amount of effort required for me lead to these oversights. The numbering mistake is easily forgiven, but I certainly should have done better in ensuring that after 25...Bg4 26. Bg6+ was a legal move!
Therefore, the revision to line (b) is,
<24...Qe5 25. Ne4 Bg4 26. Ng3+ Kg5>
(26...Kh4 27. Rxh6+ Kg5 and we have the same deal only that Black loses the h-pawn immediately. This h-pawn could be an important protector of the g4 square in some of these lines so if Black wants it taken off, White should oblige!)
<27. Rg6+ Kf4>
(27...Kh4 28. Rxh6+ Kg5 29. Rg6+ Kh4 30. Rb4! wins as White threatens Rbxg4#. Note that 30...Qe1+ 31. Bf1 is one of the reasons why this line is winning!)
<28. Rb4+ Ke3 29. Re4+ Qxe4 (or 29...K moves 30. Rxe5 dxe5 31. Rxg4 ) 30. Bxe4> and White emerges a piece up!
PS. I had a great time solving these two bonus puzzles that you correctly brought up, Jfp! It's awesome that you posted your thoughts on the importance and practical relevance of understanding some of the subtleties involved in Black's potential 24th move: Very instructive!
|Feb-12-12|| ||James D Flynn: Congratulations to morfishine who seems to have found a solution to the dilemma posed by 20....Qe5. It looks promising but so much else is not quite what it seems in this position. It is too late for me to analyze further tonight. I'll look at it again in the morning.|
|Feb-12-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <Morfishine, James D Flynn> Seriously, man: James D Flynn is right!|
Congratulations on the ...Qxc3 variation in regards to the Qe5 line.
You have displayed intelligent tactical awareness!
|Feb-13-12|| ||TheoNov: <James D Flynn: [19...Qxc3] makes it tough to find the win.>|
20.Nxe7 Kh8 (Best, e.g. 20...Qe5, 21.Rxf6!) 21.e5! Nh7
click for larger view
22.Be1 Qc7 23.exd6 Qxd6 24.Ng6+ Kg8 25.Rd1
click for larger view
|Feb-13-12|| ||M.Hassan: "Insane" White to play 17.?
Both sides have lost 3 pawns.
I kept on thinking of this certain line but could not follow it to the end due to tiredness and then resorted to Chessmaster that showed starting 3 moves were the same:
|Feb-13-12|| ||morfishine: <James D Flynn> & <LoveThatJoker> Thanks for looking! Much appreciated! Of course, this stems from <19.Nxe7> (which tries to play both sides of the board) instead of the game-score <19.Bxd3>|
Instead of 19...Qxc3, better for Black may be <19...Nc5> or <19.Nb4> to screen or cover <b7> in the event of <Nxc8>. Plus this keeps whites bishop out of <d3>.
I don't think Black wants to allow the sequence <20.Nxc8> followed by <21.Rxb7>. Thats what I meant by playing both sides of the board.
Again, thanks guys! Great job today, very enjoyable!
|Feb-13-12|| ||CHESSTTCAMPS: I'm not going try a comprehensive solution in view of limited time, but black's double attack on Qd3 and Ne6 suggests that white should give up Q for R+B and a strong attack. One line I see is 17.Nxf8 Nxd3 18.Ng6+ Kh7 19.Nxe7 Qxc3 (stronger, I think, is 19... Ne5) 20.Bd3 Qe5 21.Rxf6!! gxf6 (Qxe7 22.Rxh6+ wins the Q) 22.Bxf6 Q moves 23.e5+ forces black to give up queen to stop mate. |
Time for review....
|Feb-13-12|| ||scormus: I'd be interested in the thinking on 9 Qd3 instead of Qd2, in this game or on move 8 in the more usual Najdorf Poison Pawn. Not so many games in the database with Qd3 but a superior win rate for W. Is this because it's better or just that B is less likely to have prepared for it. Either way it looks interesting, allowing the WQ 1-move path to f3, g3 or h3. Against that it could be vulnerable (or sacrificable) to a BN on e5. Having WQ and BQ on row 3 also adds some, whats that word chess guys use .... tension.|
|Feb-13-12|| ||sethoflagos: <<scormus:> I'd be interested in the thinking on 9 Qd3 instead of Qd2>|
The 6.Bg5 Najdorfs are going for the quick tactical kill and Qd2 is definitely the best attacking square for the WQ.
BUT ... if black inconsiderately survives past move 20, there are some internal weaknesses in white's position that will come back to haunt him. c3 is obviously weak, but so are c4, e3 and e4. 9.Qd3 retains some tactical advantage (especially in the h6 variation as above) but I think white is eyeing his middle game defensive position as well.
Berg playing white against the poisoned pawn has 6.5/7 on the database so he obviously knows what he is doing.
Gashimov is no slouch either (!) but in the game I gave earlier V Gashimov vs Grischuk, 2010, Grischuk just blows away his central defence in half a dozen moves despite a full four minor piece blockade of white's weak squares. Amazing game.
|Feb-13-12|| ||morfishine: <sethoflagos> Fascinating game Gashimov vs Grischuk...Thanks!|
|Feb-13-12|| ||sethoflagos: Cheers <morfishine:>|
I must make a small correction though.
On recheck, Berg's impressive 6.5/7 was against general B96 Najdorf's. He was actually winless against poisoned pawns until he switched from Qd2 to Qd3 for 2/2 since.
|Feb-14-12|| ||scormus: <sethoflagos> Thanks a lot for the response. I'll go over the Gashimov vs Grischuk game as well as others of Berg.|
Interesting point about whether Qd3 holds W's position together better than Qd2, and also Berg's success with it.
I only remember one game when the Poison Pawn was played against me, it seemed to go out of favour in the 70s (after Spassky-Fischer). I got the feeling B would play it only if he knew it intimately, and is probably a specialist with it, while W would be prepared for several other continuations in the Najdorf 6. Bg5 line.
|Feb-15-12|| ||gofer: This one is indeed insane. So many themes;
a) The nice little dance of Ne6;
1) Nxf8 Nxd3 2) Ng6+ Kh7 3) Nxe7
b) The attack on Nf6
1) Bxf6 Nxd3 2) Bxg7+ Kg8 3) Bxf8 Bxe6 4) Bxe7
c) The defense of Ne6
d) The attack on Qa3 to swing Rb1 to f3, g3 or h3
1) Rb3 Nxd3 2) Nxf8 Qa5 3) Bxd3!
I have been looking at this for a couple of days and
I am still no further forward. Okay so I saw a scrap
of an idea that could develop into something better, but
getting the complete combination was beyond me. Having finally
looked at the game I have the following to comment...
17 Nxf8 Nxd3
18 Ng6+ Kh7
19 Bxd3 ...
Now I did see this far, but I wasn't sure the king had to take
Ng6, could black not risk Qxc3? After all there is no reason why
black can't simply give back the queen sacrifice if white plays
Rb3 immediately and if he doesn't then having the queen on the
a1-h8 diagonal could be quite useful defensively.
19 ... Qc3
20 Nxe7 ...
White has a rook and bishop for the queen, not that much! But
the threat of the discovered check is there to gain another
20 ... Be6
21 e5+ Qxd3!
22 cxd3 dxe5
Okay black is an exchange down, but is a pawn up. The problem is
that white has a good attack and black has nothing. so I am
starting to see that may be black does have to take Ng6...
|Feb-15-12|| ||scormus: <gofer> you are working well. 2 days on a Sunday puzzle, that dedication puts me to shame. I max at about 2 hours! Yes, I agree with you the big <if> is whether B takes the Ng6|
|Jan-21-13|| ||jovack: awesome game|
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