< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 13 OF 13 ·
|Jun-09-12|| ||Cemoblanca: <MindCtrol9> No problem man! I'm glad you liked the stuff! :0) By the way: I'm still thinking, what was the idea behind the (great) move 31.Re8? ;0) Magnus has not saved this 1! Moro was the 1, who has not played vigorously! Unfortunately!|
|Jun-09-12|| ||NGambit: Back and forth! But it was Moro who missed his chance..|
|Jun-09-12|| ||Octal: Okay, people are talking about how Moro missed his chance, but where is the improvement?|
(I'm not trying to defend Carlsen here. I just want to know where the improvement is, regardless of who is playing Black.)
|Jun-09-12|| ||Jim Bartle: According to the running commentary at chessdom (by someone whose name I don't recognize), 31. Re8 was a big mistake. He said white's rook on e7 was much more valuable than the black rook on f8.|
He said 31. Kc5 and 32. Kc6 should win, but didn't give variations.
|Jun-10-12|| ||Cemoblanca: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36-O...
No, the GM who analyzed the game is not a "Box Champion" [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_...!! ;0) Great job by the way! Thanks for the video De La Hoya.. ähh.. De La Riva! ;0)
|Jun-10-12|| ||Eyal: <According to the running commentary at chessdom (by someone whose name I don't recognize), 31. Re8 was a big mistake. He said white's rook on e7 was much more valuable than the black rook on f8.|
He said 31. Kc5 and 32. Kc6 should win, but didn't give variations.>
31.Kc5 & Kb6, to be exact... that was Gajewski (a 2600 Polish GM). Another option is <31.a5> - Shipov gives several winning ideas following this move in his analysis of the game (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3SN... - starting from about 8:30). The basic idea in both cases is to keep increasing the pressure rather than exchange pieces, since Black is on the verge of zugzwang.
|Jun-10-12|| ||Jim Bartle: Right, my mistake: 31. Kc5 and 32. Kb6.|
|Jun-10-12|| ||Shams: <The basic idea in both cases is to keep increasing the pressure rather than exchange pieces, since Black is on the verge of zugzwang.>|
As White, Carlsen would have found the right plan in seconds I bet. He could not be more at home in a position like this.
|Jun-10-12|| ||maxi: I was zapping over the moves of this game at about two moves per second and then I saw 31.Re8, and I went "What the ...!" It blows my mind that a GM would make such a mistake.|
|Jun-10-12|| ||solskytz: Armed with a computer everyone is a chess genius.
Without a computer, every reasonably capable amateur can sometimes see a move that the GM missed.
Not to mention that after the game is over things are much easier to see than OTB.
For each such move where you 'understood' better than the GMs, some 500 moves will be found in your own games where the GM will improve upon what you played.
Some humility and respect are still in order.
These people dedicate a lifetime to hone a skill, and manage to do what most other people with similar dedication fail at.
|Jun-10-12|| ||visayanbraindoctor: <maxi: I was zapping over the moves of this game at about two moves per second and then I saw 31.Re8>|
Yes. Even without a computer, it is an obvious positional blunder. Why exchange a rook on the 7th rank for an inactive one?
The main reason, aside from time pressure, is related to the idea below:
<Shams: <The basic idea in both cases is to keep increasing the pressure rather than exchange pieces, since Black is on the verge of zugzwang.>
As White, Carlsen would have found the right plan in seconds I bet. He could not be more at home in a position like this.>
Morozevich has an active forcing style. He does not like lengthy squeeze-outs were he tries to prophylactically contain a cramped opponent's counter-play. So he went for a forcing line.
On the other hand, I believe Carlsen's greatest strength lies in such positions. Squeeze-outs and grind-outs. If the positions were reversed, he probably would have easily won.
|Jun-10-12|| ||solskytz: I remember recently seeing a similar king-march win from Nakamura in the US championship (against Robson maybe?)|
The idea of 31. Kc5 and 32. Kb6 looks very very squeezing indeed.
I can understand 31. Re8, trying to swap a defender of f7, and either missing on the strength of ...Be6 later, or estimating that black would then have a difficulty defending in the long run both f7 and d5, so (in his estimation) simplifying to a won ending.
Many thoughts pass in a strong chessplayer's mind during a stressful and important game! Many byways distract from the correct path... and sometimes you make the second best choice... or worse.
|Jun-10-12|| ||YoGoSuN: reminds me of http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1266458...|
|Jun-10-12|| ||solskytz: Right! Kramnik found the right plan and won. The resemblance is striking!|
|Jun-10-12|| ||solskytz: Although, true, black didn't look for counterplay and was content just moving back and forth, around and about, until he collapsed. |
Takes quite a master to feel free to undertake action in such situations... can't blame Morozevich for blowing this.
|Jun-10-12|| ||maxi: Gasp, <solskytz>, what bull! Where is the disrespect in pointing out that 31. Re8 goes against the grain of the position? Why would I need a computer to see the obvious? Both Black Rooks are immobilized by the White Rooks on Seventh, The Black Bishop has not been developed and for the time being cannot be moved. Black is paralyzed and the White King is ready to invade. And Moro releases the pressure?|
No wait, it is a great move because it was by a great chess player. Sorry... We unholy really should not be allowed to follow their sacred games.
Hi, <visayanbraindoctor>, good to hear from you. Yes, I have not followed Moros's games, but I would guess that what you guys are saying would explain the psychology of what happended.
|Jun-10-12|| ||solskytz: Maxi doesn't appreciate my sentiments... oh well..|
|Jun-10-12|| ||maxi: You really know how to hurt a guy.|
|Jun-11-12|| ||Bureaucrat: <maxi: I was zapping over the moves of this game at about two moves per second and then I saw 31.Re8, and I went "What the ...!" It blows my mind that a GM would make such a mistake.>|
When a GM sacrifices a positional asset (in this case good rook vs bad rook) it is never without a reason. Moro for sure saw a winning line somewhere, but made an error on his calculation. It is not like he didn't understand that the rook on e7 was superior to the one on f8.
|Jun-11-12|| ||maxi: <Bureaucrat>, possibly, but what you are saying does not change anything I have said.|
|Jun-11-12|| ||Bureaucrat: When I saw the strange-looking Re8 I thought Moro must have found a concrete way to convert his advantage. It is easy to criticize such moves when they don't work, because they are "obviously" wrong. "How can he have made such an obviously bad move??" Answer: He calculated and saw a win, but the calculation turned out to be wrong. Zapping through the game at two seconds per move, you probably didn't calculate much at all, and certainly not enough to know that the move was bad.|
|Jun-12-12|| ||maxi: Well, I have always been interested in chess endings, particularly one-rook and two-rook. Perhaps in this particular area I do know a lot of chess lore. I have read books and gone over many endings myself and with a computer. To be sure, on many other areas of chess my knowledge leaves hell of a lot to be desired.|
|Jun-12-12|| ||maxi: I ain´t no GM for sure, but I have an intuitive understanding of many endgames. I remember going over the young Anand games, and being surprised at his relative weakness in the ending, compared with his strength in the other aspects of the game. Now he is very well-rounded player, a tough customer. I understand what you mean, that it was a tactical line gone bad, but that is part of the intuitive understanding I am talking about.|
|Aug-09-12|| ||whiteshark: There a certain similarities to the 'famous' game Capablanca vs Alekhine, 1924|
|Aug-09-12|| ||wordfunph: "There’s no secret. I’m simply a practical player. When there’s a tense situation on the board it’s hard to remain precise until the end, and mistakes inevitably creep in. That was how it was with Morozevich, and the same happens with others."|
- Magnus Carlsen
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