< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|May-23-14|| ||Patriot: Black is up a piece. White threatens 21.Qe6+ or 21.Qxa7+.|
21.dxe4 Qe3+ 22.Kb4 a4+ 23.Ka4 Rxc4+
21.Kb3 Nd2+ 22.Kc3 looks a bit tricky to me. Black could aim for a draw if needed with 22...Ne4+.
21.Kb3 Nd2+ 22.Ka4 Nxc4 23.dxc4 Rxc4+ 24.Kb3 Qe3+ 25.c3 and I'm not sure what is next.
Usually a move like 21.Kb3 is not an issue but given white's threats it is potentially a big problem.
|May-23-14|| ||Patriot: I missed the simple 21.Kb3 Nd2+ 22.Kc3 Nc5#. I guess I was still seeing the pawn on e4...|
|May-23-14|| ||sombreronegro: I'd really like 20 ... Qg3 with the move to pin the pawn, but it looks like it can be defused by escaping to d2. The knight sac on e4 looks interesting. You get two center pawns in compensation and pressure on the pinned bishop. However that knight is an active piece. Sacking the exchange R x c4 looks most promising to me. You have the white bishop and the knights looks poised to control the black squares in pursuit of the king. With exposed kings I think you need to pounce and keep active pieces.|
|May-23-14|| ||sombreronegro: So its the knight sac.
<kjr63: Does 20...Rxc4 win also?>
Looks like I am going to need to find out as well.....
|May-23-14|| ||kevin86: The white king, far from home, but protected is quickly defeated when black's sacrifices open up the position.|
|May-23-14|| ||therevolver17: 20..Nxe4+ (21.dxe4 (21.Kb3 Nd2+ (22.Kc3 Nd5#) 22.Kb4 a5+ 23.Ka4 Rxc4+ 24.dxc4 Qxc4+ 25.Qb4 Qxb4#) Qe3+ 22.Kb4 a5+ 23.Ka4 Rxc4+ 24.Qb4 Rxb4#) 21.Kb4 a5+ (22.Ka4 Nc5+ 23.Qxc5 bxc5 ) 22.Kb3 Nd2+|
|May-23-14|| ||BOSTER: <Once:Sometimes it's not about the best thing to do or the right thing -sometimes it's about whoever ends up with the most material>
(the conclusion after divorce)
This is a <greedy> philosophy.
"Principle of Give and Take" is in our life, love and chess.
Every move in chess gives up something and takes something.
Like a <hole> is a weakness in the Pawn structure ,your <greedy> philosophy has many <holes>.
I can't support your <greedy> philosophy , but I like your imagination when you was talking about <holes> in the emmental cheese.
Believe me I feel the scent even today.
|May-23-14|| ||chrisowen: Aid in e4 stoop maybe for one knight each in every, |
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|May-23-14|| ||Domdaniel: What do you get if you cross Misha with Mathers?
|May-23-14|| ||Once: <Sally> Like your Willy Nelson quote very much!|
It's funny, but I read the Chernev quote a little bit differently. For me he isn't saying that you shouldn't look for mating combinations. What he seems to be saying is that when you have found a winning combination don't waste time looking for one that it a little bit quicker or flashier. Many a slip twixt cup and lip, and all that.
|May-23-14|| ||Once: <kjr63, sombreronegro...Does 20...Rxc4 win also?> |
I wondered the same thing too! In human mode I spent a long time looking at 20...Rxc4, in the end deciding that the game continuation was more forcing.
Fritzie says that 20...Rxc4 21. Kxc4 Rc8+ is worth about -1.89. After 22. Kb3
click for larger view
Black is still ahead in material but has no easy way of getting at the white king. So I'd say that 20... Rxc4 was certainly playable and ought to lead to a black advantage but it is not as decisive as the text.
|May-23-14|| ||sombreronegro: < Once
wondered the same thing too! In human mode I spent a long time looking at 20...Rxc4, in the end deciding that the game continuation was more forcing.>
Thank you kindly, Once.
Yes that line looks quite like the best under the circumstances for white where in fact the king capture, even though it loses tempo, keeps the white pawn center.
Lesson learned here is the knight sac destroys the pawn formation by force whereas white has the option not to do so clearly with 20...Rxc4 21. Kxc4 . So it looks to me that the better principle was to open the position actively rather than assuming it will passively which is not in fact forced. Interesting....
|May-23-14|| ||eblunt: I had as per the text, but 22 ... Qc5 + followed by QxB+ and then taking the Knight. Putting Black to pieces up, and also removing any attack black possibilities. That's what I'd play OTB anyhow; wins without any sacrifice that I might have miscalculated !|
|May-23-14|| ||Domdaniel: <Once> I thought, as much as any of us here, that you were *always* in <human mode>...|
So what's the alternative? Inhuman mode?
|May-23-14|| ||perfidious: Not so difficult as advertised.|
|May-23-14|| ||LIzzard: Did anyone else go with 23: Rc8+ instead of Be2+? I still like that more than that used in the game.|
|May-23-14|| ||sombreronegro: <Domdaniel: So what's the alternative? Inhuman mode?>|
On a good day I can get as close to human mode as a Border Collie opening a door latch. Most of the time I can only smell the difference between chicken and pork.
|May-23-14|| ||saniloma: Would not 22...Qc5+ cause mate in 2 with any response? Why sacrifice the rook?|
|May-23-14|| ||scormus: <Once> your words are the wisdom of the old bull :)|
|May-23-14|| ||Madman99X: <salinoma> after 22... Qc5+ 23. Ka4 Qxc4 24. Qb4 Qxb4 25. Kxb4|
click for larger view
This certainly wins because black is up material, has better pawn structure, and better piece placement, but the white king has lived to fight another 20 moves or so.
|May-23-14|| ||Capacorn: <Sally Simpson: I know the Chernev quote very well. I've often wrestled with it...|
The advice is good but perhaps out of place in a book for a student of the game. The good player with a win by technique on the table very rarely screws it up...>
Irving's advice is well taken, but I tend to agree with you, Sally. In the end, like everything else on the board, judgement reigns supreme; and practical continuations don't always equal boring continuations.
In this particular puzzle, I analyzed the first couple of possible replies to 21...Nxe4+. I saw the general outline of the mating net -- not every single move -- but that was enough. The remaining moves all clearly suggested themselves. One would've had no problem finding them over the board. It's intuition, but certainly not any kind of profound feel for tactics.
In this specific example, I consider the knight sac and the ensuing tactics a matter of practicality. It's there. Take it. As Steinitz taught: If you have an advantage, you must attack. Otherwise, you risk losing the advantage. Looking for a "safe" way to win might mean throwing away the tactical solution right under your nose. Fortune favors the brave.
|May-23-14|| ||stingray0104: <saniloma> 22. ... Qc5+ also wins but it is not a mate in 2; for instance, 23. Ka4 Qxc4+ 24. Qb4|
|May-24-14|| ||TheBish: Wade vs J Vilardebo Picurena, 1946|
Black to play (20...?) "Difficult", Black is up a piece.
The fact that Black is already up a piece should make this not so difficult! Having said that, Black can finish things quickly.
20...Nxe4+! and now:
(A) 21. dxe4 Qe3+ 22. Kb4 a5+ 23. Ka4 Rxc4+ 24. b4 Rxb4+ and wins White's queen.
(B) 21. Kb4 a5+ 22. Kb3 (or 22. Ka4 Nc5+ wins the queen) Nd2+ 23. Ka4 (or 23. Kc3 Nd5#) Rxc4+! 24. dxc4 Qxc4+ 25. b4 Qxc2+ 26. Qb3 Nxb3 wins the queen.
(C) 21. Kb3 Nd2+ 22. Ka4 (or 22. Kc3 Nd5#, or 22. Kb4 Rxc4+ 23. dxc4 Qxc4#) Nxc4 23. dxc4 Qxc4+ and now 24. b4 Qxc2+ 25. Qb3 Qxb3+ or 24. Qb4 Qxb4+ 25. Kxb4 Rxc2 and wins.
|May-24-14|| ||Once: <Domdaniel> In human mode we dream, experience fear, make mistakes, receive divine inspiration from one or more of the muses, remember fondly childhood sweethearts, ponder the meaning of the universe, doodle ...|
.. and we try to solve CG POTDs with little more than our own noddle and a mug of strong black coffee. Sometimes two. Mugs, that is, not noddles.
In Fritzie mode, we turn on the unblinking silicon servant and find out what we really should have played. Fritzie can't be reasoned with. He doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And he absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are beaten.
Once upon a time, or maybe twice (I don't know tech stuff), some of our dear colleagues on this site have insisted that we should make it clear when we are using computer assistance.
So I do. Human mode = no Fritzie.
|May-24-14|| ||kjr63: Thanks Once. I though about 21...Nxe4 variation that looked promising. I thought only Qd6+ and did not see Qxa7+. However Computer gave still 0.00 ,white escapes to draw: 1. ... Rxc4+ 2. Kxc4 Nxe4 (Stckfish at depth 30) 3. Qxa7+ Ke6 4. Qxb6+ Nd6+ 5. Kb3 Nf5 6. Rae1 Rc8 7. a3 Qd2 8. Ka2 Rxc2 9. Nxd6 Nxd6 10. Qb3+ Kd7 11.Rxe5 Bg4 12. Qa4+ Kc7 13. Qa7+ Kc8 14. Qa8+ Kd7 15. Qa7+ Kc8 (score: 0.00) *|
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