chessgames.com
Members · Prefs · Laboratory · Collections · Openings · Endgames · Sacrifices · History · Search Kibitzing · Kibitzer's Café · Chessforums · Tournament Index · Players · Kibitzing

(If you register a free account you won't see all these ads!)
The World vs Arkadij Naiditsch
"Suffering from c6-ness" (game of the day Dec-30-2014)
Chessgames Challenge (2014), chessgames.com, Jun-16
Ruy Lopez, Berlin Defense (C65)  ·  1-0
ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

NOTE: You are using our new chess viewer, "Olga." For more info see the Olga Quickstart Guide. You can switch back to the old viewer (pgn4web) from the pulldown menu below. If you have questions or suggestions see our Olga chessforum.

explore this opening
find similar games 1,503 more games of Naiditsch
PGN: download | view | print Help: general | java-troubleshooting

TIP: The Olga viewer allows you to get computer analysis by clicking the "ENGINE" link on the lower right.

PGN Viewer:  What is this?
For help with this chess viewer, please see the Olga Chess Viewer Quickstart Guide.
PREMIUM MEMBERS CAN REQUEST COMPUTER ANALYSIS [more info]

Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 707 OF 708 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Mar-14-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <cro777> I remember that's what I wanted to play since it restricts Black on the k-side somewhat.
Mar-14-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  cro777: <AylerKupp> It's nice to see that, two years after the game, the same lines are being discussed at the highest level, the World Championship Candidates' tournament.

Evidently, there are no easy answers to questions we had discussed.

Mar-15-16  dunamisvpm: The best game ever by the world team... 708 pages in all. Mabuhay and GOD Bless
Mar-20-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  morfishine: <dunamisvpm: The best game ever by the world team..> Sorry, the Akobian game was better: Chessgames Challenge: The World vs Akobian, 2012

I guess you haven't been watching, but thats ok :)

*****

Mar-20-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <morfishine> Well, I disagree, I think that the play of the World team was far better in this game, and I not only watched but participated in both of them. The reason that I think that this was the best game since Chessgames Challenge: The World vs Akobian, 2012 (that was my first game so I can't comment on the earlier ones) is that in Chessgames Challenge: The World vs Akobian, 2012 Akobian played very passively and got into an inferior position early very in the game. He never tried to get counterplay by ...c5 and voluntarily closed the q-side. And we made some very good moves in that game like, IMO, 19.h3 and 25.Ra2. But, as a result of Akobian's passive play, I think that our k-side attack pretty much played itself.

In contrast, I think that the team played with much more originality in this game and we gave Naiditsch more problems to solve and make wrong decisions. Giving him the option to capture with either 19...fxg6 (allowing him to win a pawn but giving us an advanced passed pawn) or 19...hxg6 was, I think, brilliant, as was the subsequent 23.Bb4. Who would refuse to not only get rid of our 2 bishops, double and isolate our b-pawns, and prevent their own c-pawn from being doubled an isolated in a semi-open file after Ba4xc6? Yet he apparently either missed or misevaluated the subtlety that after 24.axb4 his Bf7 was unable to participate in trying to stop our passed e-pawn since it couldn't get to either h4 or c5 to cover the e7 square.

Yes, he could have equalized by 24...Rd4 instead of 24...c6 but he didn't appreciate the danger. And we then pounced on his 24...c6 mistake without mercy.

Mar-23-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  cormier: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/...
Mar-24-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  cro777: <AylerKupp: I remember that's what I wanted to play since it restricts Black on the k-side somewhat.>

Anand is quite consistent in playing 7.h3 in order to prevent Black's maneuver ...Bg4...Bh5...Bg6.

Anand vs Karjakin, 2016

In Round 11, Anand achieved a microscopic edge then kept pressing and Karjakinís small errors added up to a significant edge for Anand.

Apr-02-16  yskid: Fresh from ICCF WC28

Mark Noble elected 7.h3 this time

https://www.iccf.com/game?id=532641

Apr-10-16  yskid: Fresh from ICCF WC29

Only draw, but we discussed similar lines in our game

https://www.iccf.com/game?id=794201

Apr-23-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  cormier: http://hpc.msu.ru/?q=node/59
Apr-23-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  cormier: https://www.iccf.com/tables
Apr-23-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  Boomie: I would say that this was one of our best games. GM Naiditsch is considered one of the most knowledgeable Berlin players. The team's decision to play a Berlin against him was perhaps hubris but led to a wonderful game which, I believe, was studied by everyone interested in the Berlin.

Also our decision to play the closed variation rather than the Berlin endgame was remarkable. We had players threatening to leave if we played d3...heh. That decision was team play at its finest, where emotions run high and the vote is close. Not that d3 is the best move. There is no obvious way to judge. But it plays into our style, which is to keep the position as complicated as possible so our unbelievable analytical strength will have more opportunities.

Apr-24-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  moronovich: I am still very impressed by this game.
May-11-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tiggler: Maybe a new challenge is coming? It would be nice to get together with old and new comrades.
May-14-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  cormier: The most significant phenomenon of the last few years has been the Berlin Variation, putting an end to nothing less than the move 1.e4.

<sergey shipov>

May-14-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  morfishine: <cormier: The most significant phenomenon of the last few years has been the Berlin Variation, putting an end to nothing less than the move 1.e4> This comment seems a bit bombastic; but if there is any merit in it, then chess is truly dead

The fact of the matter is the "Berlin Wall" is exploitable; they just haven't found it yet

*****

May-14-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  cormier: that was said in 2013 ...
May-15-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  RookFile: I like the white plan where he plays, in some order, Bxc6, d3, and 0-0-0. This creates an opposite sides castling situation. Keres said that proper play is for both sides to pawn storm the other guy's king. Black is hampered in this effort by his doubled pawns.

Caruana vs Nakamura, 2016

May-15-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <<cormier> The most significant phenomenon of the last few years has been the Berlin Variation, putting an end to nothing less than the move 1.e4.>

Shirov should look at the data before making grand pronouncements. At the time I write this Opening Explorer has 367,903 games starting with 1.e4 with White winning 37.5%, Black winning 29.7%, and 32.6% draws for a White winning percentage of 54.0%. After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 Opening Explorer has 7.520 games with White winning 33.5%, Black winning 23.0%, and 43.5% draws for a White winning percentage of 55.3%.

The much larger ChessTempo database has 1,491,382 games starting with 1.e4 with White winning 38.4%, Black winning 31.7%, and 29.9% draws for a White winning percentage of 53.4%. After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 ChessTempo has 17,713 games with White winning 35.6%, Black winning 23.5%, and 40.9% draws for a White winning percentage of 56.1%.

For the more restrictive Masters database (both players rated 2200+), ChessTempo has 699,125 games starting with 1.e4 with White winning 35.0%, Black winning 26.9%, and 38.1% draws for a White winning percentage of 54.1%. After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 ChessTempo has 12,417 games with White winning 30.7%, Black winning 21.8%, and 47.5% draws for a White winning percentage of 54.5%.

The even larger 365Chess database has 1,644,659 games starting with 1.e4 with White winning 38.4%, Black winning 32.0%, and 29.6% draws for a White winning percentage of 53.2%. After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 365Chess has 18,288 games with White winning 37.2%, Black winning 25.5%, and 37.2% draws for a White winning percentage of 55.9%.

For its Masters database 365Chess has 215,102 games starting with 1.e4 with White winning 30.5%, Black winning 21.1%, and 48.4% draws for a White winning percentage of 54.7%. After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 365Chess has 6,036 games with White winning 25.9%, Black winning 18.3%, and 55.8% draws for a White winning percentage of 54.5%.

So it depends on what the Black player's goals are. Looking at the data, White has a higher probability of a win or a draw (winning percentage) after just 1.e4 than after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6, both overall and at the master level. But Black has a higher probability of a draw after 1.e4 than after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 than after 1.e4, also both overall and at the master level. But the Berlin Variation putting an end to 1.e4? No, no way. The differences are just not that significant.

It would be interesting to see the equivalent results for games played after 2000, when Kasparov - Kramnik World Championship Match (2000) revitalized the Berlin defense. Alas, none of the databases above provide a means of filtering and summarizing the results by date. If anyone has access to a database that allows that, please post the summary results.

May-15-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <<Rookfile> I like the white plan where he plays, in some order, Bxc6, d3, and 0-0-0.>

It depends on what White's goals are. White's winning chances usually depend on exploiting its k-side pawn majority, and for that (particularly after the queens are exchanged) the White king's support of the pawn majority is essential. And, in that case, Black's king is needed on the k-side to counter the presence of White's king there. So if Black is aiming for or is at least satisfied with a draw (and, if not, why would he be playing the Berlin defense?), Black's best approach is to mirror the placement of White's king; either in the k-side, the center, or the q-side.

However, if Black is trying for a win, then your (and Keres'!) approach of opposite side castling probably maximizes the chances for a win (or a loss, everything comes with increased risk!). It would be interesting to find out with a database and appropriate filtering and summarizing capability the respective winning, losing, and drawing percentages for games when the kings are on the same side and when the kings are on opposite sides.

May-15-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: Here are some more meaningless statistics re: the Berlin defense putting an end to the move 1.e4:

First of all, playing the Berlin defense requires both White's and Black's cooperation. Black must respond to 1.e4 with 1...e5 and must respond to 2.Nf3 with 2...Nc6, and White must play 3.Bb5. Here are some percentages which you can compare with the previous percentages I provided.

<A. % of games starting with 1.e4 e5>:

Opening Explorer: 106,398 games, 28.9% of total 1.e4 games. White wins 38.8%, Black wins 27.9%, 33.3% draws. White winning percentage = 55.5%

Chess Tempo database, all games: 318,479 games, 21.4% of total 1.e4 games. White wins 40.0%, Black wins 28.3%, 31.7% draws. White winning percentage = 55.9%

Chess Tempo database, master games: 153,449 games, 21.9% of total 1.e4 games. White wins 34.1%, Black wins 24.3%, 41.6% draws. White winning percentage = 54.9%

365Chess database, all games: 387,953 games, 23.6% of total 1.e4 games. White wins 41.4%, Black wins 29.2%, 29.4% draws. White winning percentage = 56.1%

365Chess database, master games: 51,370 games, 23.9% of total 1.e4 games. White wins 27.6%, Black wins 18.2%, 54.2% draws. White winning percentage = 54.7%

<B. % of games starting with 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5>:

Opening Explorer: 48,403 games, 13.2% of total 1.e4 games. White wins 36.6%, Black wins 24.4%, 39.0% draws. White winning percentage = 56.1%

Chess Tempo database, all games: 138,543 games, 9.3% of total 1.e4 games. White wins 38.9%, Black wins 26.0%, 35.1% draws. White winning percentage = 56.5%

Chess Tempo database, master games: 81,806 games, 11.% of total 1.e4 games. White wins 34.2%, Black wins 23.0%, 42.9% draws. White winning percentage = 55.6%

365Chess database, all games: 143,454 games, 8.7% of total 1.e4 games. White wins 38.8%, Black wins 25.8%, 35.4% draws. White winning percentage = 56.5%

365Chess database, master games: 30,289 games, 14.1% of total 1.e4 games. White wins 27.8%, Black wins 17.8%, 54.4% draws. White winning percentage = 55.0%

So the Ruy Lopez is only played in ~ 9% to ~ 14% of all 1.e4 games, so talk about the Berlin defense putting an end to 1.e4 is silly, given that there have been relatively little opportunities to do so. And it is instructive to compare the number of draws for all games to the number of draws for master games; the drawing percentage for master games is much higher. Which is what one should expect given that in order to win a game the loser must have made the last mistake, and mistakes are a lot less likely in master level games.

Again, it would be instructive to look at the data before and after 2000.

May-15-16  jindraz: I think Shipov really refers to much higher level than just master games. The predilection for the Berlin wall and Italian game at the highest level is something that I do not enjoy watching.

I did stop playing 1. e4 partly because of this, even though of course it is pretty irrelevant at my level. I suppose a car maker whose top model is the drabbest p.o.s. imaginable will lose customers even for their decent cheaper cars.

May-17-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <<jindraz> I think Shirov really refers to much higher level than just master games.>

That makes sense. So, since the ChessTempo database allows you to filter games in rating point increments of 100, I calculated a similar set of statistics for those games where both players were rated 2600+ and for those games where both players were rated 2700+. Here are the results.

<A. Both players rated 2600+>

Games starting with 1.e4: 26,056 games. White wins 30.4%, Black wins 18.5%, 51.1% draws. White winning percentage 56.0%

Games starting with 1.e4 e5: 10,314 games, 39.6% of games starting with 1.e4. White wins 28.1%, Black wins 16.9%, 55.0% draws. White winning percentage 55.6%

Games starting with 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc5 3.Bb5: 6,575 games, 25.2% of games starting with 1.e4. White wins 28.1%, Black wins 15.8%, 56.1% draws. White winning percentage 56.2%

Games starting with 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc5 3.Bb5 Nf6: 1,989 games, 7.6% of games starting with 1.e4. White wins 24.4%, Black wins 15.4%, 60.2% draws. White winning percentage 54.5%

<B. Both players rated 2700+>

Games starting with 1.e4: 5,614 games. White wins 28.7%, Black wins 18.2%, 53.1% draws. White winning percentage 55.3%

Games starting with 1.e4 e5: 2,610 games, 46.5% of games starting with 1.e4. White wins 25.9%, Black wins 15.4%, 58.7% draws. White winning percentage 55.3%

Games starting with 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc5 3.Bb5: 1,732 games, 30.9% of games starting with 1.e4. White wins 25.2%, Black wins 15.6%, 59.2% draws. White winning percentage 54.8%

Games starting with 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc5 3.Bb5 Nf6: 636 games, 11.3% of games starting with 1.e4. White wins 22.5%, Black wins 14.6%, 62.9% draws. White winning percentage 54.0%

So in cases where both players were rated 2600+, White's winning percentage after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc5 3.Bb5 Nf6 (54.5%) was only 1.5% less than all the games started with 1.e4 (56.0%). And in cases where both players were rated 2700+, White's winning percentage after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc5 3.Bb5 Nf6 (54.0%) was only 1.3% less than all the games started with 1.e4 (55.3%). I'll let everyone decide whether they think that a 1.3% to 1.5% decrease in White's winning % constitutes "an end to nothing less than the move 1.e4". And since in only 30.2% of Ruy Lopez games where both players were rated 2600+ and in only 36.7% of games where both players were rated 2700+ did the Black player choose the Berlin defense when they had the opportunity, I donít think that Shirov's opinion was shared by these players.

May-22-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  Boomie: <AylerKupp>

Note that the quote was by Sergey Shipov, not Alexey Shirov.

This has been a public service announcement.

May-22-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: Thank you <Boomie>. I stand corrected. And I don't know why I said Shirov and not Shipov.
Jump to page #    (enter # from 1 to 708)
search thread:   
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 707 OF 708 ·  Later Kibitzing>
NOTE: You need to pick a username and password to post a reply. Getting your account takes less than a minute, totally anonymous, and 100% free--plus, it entitles you to features otherwise unavailable. Pick your username now and join the chessgames community!
If you already have an account, you should login now.
Please observe our posting guidelines:
  1. No obscene, racist, sexist, or profane language.
  2. No spamming, advertising, or duplicating posts.
  3. No personal attacks against other members.
  4. Nothing in violation of United States law.
  5. No posting personal information of members.
Blow the Whistle See something that violates our rules? Blow the whistle and inform an administrator.


NOTE: Keep all discussion on the topic of this page. This forum is for this specific game and nothing else. If you want to discuss chess in general, or this site, you might try the Kibitzer's Café.
Messages posted by Chessgames members do not necessarily represent the views of Chessgames.com, its employees, or sponsors.
Spot an error? Please submit a correction slip and help us eliminate database mistakes!
This game is type: CLASSICAL (Disagree? Please submit a correction slip.)

Featured in the Following Game Collections [what is this?]
spoiled's favorite games
by spoiled
Like
by Imaginator
Well-analzyzed, well-discussed game
from dunamisvpm's favorite games by dunamisvpm
RRB- - combined pressing
from 000_-> Middlegames Opp col Bishops 2 by whiteshark
December 30: Suffering from c6-ness
from Game of the Day 2014 by Phony Benoni
KEVINWEKESA23's favorite games
by KEVINWEKESA23
Hocus Pocus by Focus
from tea4twonty's favorite games by tea4twonty
Sara khan's favorite games
by Sara khan


home | about | login | logout | F.A.Q. | your profile | preferences | Premium Membership | Kibitzer's Café | Biographer's Bistro | new kibitzing | chessforums | Tournament Index | Player Directory | Notable Games | World Chess Championships | Opening Explorer | Guess the Move | Game Collections | ChessBookie Game | Chessgames Challenge | Store | privacy notice | advertising | contact us
Copyright 2001-2017, Chessgames Services LLC