< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
|Jan-16-15|| ||optimal play: <This one of those bluff/gamble moves that pays off nicely if it works>|
I guess that's the difference between playing against a human and playing against a machine.
You can try these things against a human even if it does contravene the guideline "always expect your opponent to make the best move in reply"
And I suppose Carlsen could convincingly bluff more than most just by virtue of the fact he’s the world champion!
I mean ... he's not going to make a bad move, is he? ;)
|Jan-16-15|| ||chancho: <FSR> 9.Nxe5 (10.Qf3) is mentioned in Daniel King's video of the game, and he said Carlsen played 8...e5 very quickly, and most likely was familiar with the complications that would ensue from 9.Nxe5.|
|Jan-16-15|| ||FSR: <chancho> Interesting. I wonder what Carlsen had in mind.|
|Jan-16-15|| ||tamar: 8...e5 may have been an oversight, but Carlsen played it so confidently, that taking the pawn would be like Russian Roulette if it was preparation. I bet Caruana saw 9 Nxe5 Nxe4 10 Qf3, but wasn't willing to gamble that Magnus didn't have something cooked up with 10...f5|
it reminded me of their first blitz encounters Caruana vs Carlsen, 2010 0-1 where Carlsen sacked two pawns, and also played ...f5!, then unexpectedly forced an exchange of Queens, and overwhelmed Caruana who was clearly unfamiliar with what was going on while Carlsen played without much thought.
|Jan-16-15|| ||john barleycorn: <tamar: 8...e5 may have been an oversight...> maybe. reminds me of Kd2 in the game with Anand. But as Anand said: "If you don't expect a gift..."|
And Carlsen's aura still makes his opponents think and re-think and reject it.
|Jan-16-15|| ||devere: Carlsen played the opening poorly, and had a quite inferior position. Caruana then made one inexact move after another, and first gave away his advantage, and then the game. In spite of his historic Sinquefeld Cup performance, it now seems that Caruana isn't destined to be successor to Carlsen as best in the world, only the successor to Aronian as second-best in the world.|
|Jan-16-15|| ||ajile: <chancho: <FSR> 9.Nxe5 (10.Qf3) is mentioned in Daniel King's video of the game, and he said Carlsen played 8...e5 very quickly,>|
<<tamar: 8...e5 may have been an oversight, but Carlsen played it so confidently, that taking the pawn would be like Russian Roulette if it was preparation.>>
This is the way you pull off the bluff. If you do it tentatively you are dead meat.
|Jan-16-15|| ||Steve.Patzer: Good to see I am not alone in wondering about 8.....e5|
|Jan-16-15|| ||1d410: <optimalplay: I mean ... he's not going to make a bad move, is he? ;)>|
I think everyone at this point expects Carlsen to play wonky moves.
|Jan-16-15|| ||tamar: I think it was an oversight, not a bluff.
Likely, Magnus remembered Black was okay in a similar situation R van Kampen vs E Pileckis, 2013
click for larger view
Here with the difference of no ...b6 or Be3, and both sides castled, 9 Nxe5 Nxe4 10 Nxe4 Bxe5 11 Nxc5 Qd4 Black was a pawn down but had quicker development.
White is only a little better though a pawn ahead +.30 according to Komodo 5
|Jan-16-15|| ||Gypsy: Very 'Laskerian' play by Carlsen in this game.|
|Jan-16-15|| ||keypusher: <tamar> nice find, I'll bet that's it.|
|Jan-16-15|| ||SirRuthless: It was a bluff. Carlsen used Fabiano's timidity against him. These game scores should include clock information like time spent on a particular move and time left for the entire time control. That would allow us to better understand why certain decisions are made. I would also like to see a new evaluation made by the engines for "difficulty of position" and difficulty of move. An evaluation that tells us about how difficult it is for a human to find the optimal continuation. Of course no two people will evaluation a position the same way necessarily. Still, over time this could tell us more about what certain players strive for in a position vs others and some other information of player styles and reactions to pressure.|
|Jan-17-15|| ||john barleycorn: The intensity of Black's attack reminded me of
Ivanchuk vs Yusupov, 1991
|Jan-17-15|| ||Ulhumbrus: 4 Bxc6 ?! concedes the bishop pair and frees Black's QB as well. If White is going to make such a concession he either has to gain enough in return for it or else foresee that Black won't be able to make his bishop pair count|
6 h3 ?! moves a pawn in the opening. This suggests that White aims for a closed game in which this loss of time will count for less. Lasker advises one to distrust pawn moves in the opening and to examine its balance sheet before one chooses such a move although Lasker did play 7 h3 in the game Lasker vs Tartakower, 1923
8...e5 offers a pawn on e5. However 9 Nxe5 exposes the knight to the discovery 9...Nxe4. Caruana declines it, possibly suspecting that Carlsen has prepared it.
12 b4 seems inconsistent in at least two ways. Firstly, having conceded the bishop pair and lost time for development he now opens the game. Secondly having doubled Black's c pawn he now undoubles it.
12...f5 prepares a king side attack after White has disturbed his king side pawns by h3. This suggests trouble for White.
13...f4 begins the attack in a position where Black has a considerable positional advantage. This is a sound attack then, one likely to prevail against any defence.
White's three moves 4 Bxc6, 6 h3 and 12 b4 taken together suggest poor playing form while Carlsen's move 8...e5 suggests good playing form. However there is an alternative explanation. When Carlsen offered the pawn sacrifice Caruana may have been worried that he had fallen into Carlsen's preparation and this may have had an upsetting effect on his mood as well as on his subsequent play.
|Jan-17-15|| ||truefriends: In the Chessbase database there are 7 games with the position after <8... e5>.|
In 6 games white played <9.Qd2>.
All players rated around 2300-2500.
Only in Macieja - Pyda (Polanica Zdroj Open, 1996) white played <9.Nxe5>.
So there must be more behind it than just a "bluff".
|Jan-17-15|| ||perfidious: <davoid....In spite of his historic Sinquefeld Cup performance, it now seems that Caruana isn't destined to be successor to Carlsen as best in the world, only the successor to Aronian as second-best in the world.>|
Another chapter of The Hype Machine emerges: one is only as good or as bad as one's last game.
|Jan-17-15|| ||fgh: <Ulhumbrus: 4 Bxc6 ?! concedes the bishop pair and frees Black's QB as well. If White is going to make such a concession he either has to gain enough in return for it or else foresee that Black won't be able to make his bishop pair count>|
What are you talking about? 4. Bxc6 has been played by Carlsen, Anand, Caruana (duh!), Ivanchuk, Adams, Svidler, Ponomariov, Shirov and other top players. It's a good move and, contrary to your claim that it "frees Black's QB", it actually often leads to games where black has trouble developing his queenside bishop. That's a key characteristic of the Rossolimo.
|Jan-17-15|| ||rogge: Ulhumbrus, the legend :)
Gotta keep him on ignore during live events, though.
|Jan-17-15|| ||Penguincw: Video anaylsis of this game https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y9....|
|Jan-17-15|| ||perfidious: <rogge: Ulhumbrus, the legend :) >|
Perhaps in his own mind....
<Gotta keep him on ignore during live events, though.>
Oh, I keep his idiocy there on a more or less permanent basis.
|Jan-18-15|| ||thegoodanarchist: How the pages would have exploded with speculation if Caruana had won this game. Caruana will soon be champ! Carlsen is no good! etc. etc.|
Glad we don't have to see an increase in those kinds of comments, since we already have enough of them already
|Jan-27-15|| ||tamar: Consensus during the game was that 29 Kh2 was a drawing path.|
It might, but Black can still win the exchange, with the line
29 Kh2 Kh8 30 Re1 h6 31 Bh4 Bf6 32 Bg3 Rg8 33 Rg1 Rg5 34 Rxg2 Rcg8 35 Kh1 Nxg2 36 Kxg2 Rgb8
click for larger view
Black has good chances to win, so maybe it wasn't so much that Caruana missed this chance, as he misevaluated how much worse 29 Bxf4 was.
|Sep-08-18|| ||jabinjikanza: Congratulations carsen|
|Sep-08-18|| ||WorstPlayerEver: Too slow, too weak. 15. Na4 and White grabs the initiative. The plan is Qb1-b2-c3|
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