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Magnus Carlsen vs Sergey Karjakin
"Turkey Grinder" (game of the day Nov-25-2016)
Carlsen - Karjakin World Championship (2016), New York, NY USA, rd 10, Nov-24
Spanish Game: Berlin Defense (C65)  ·  1-0


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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 52 OF 53 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Nov-26-16  Ulhumbrus: <Domdaniel: <Ulhmbrus> Perhaps - but, as we've seen, the immediate tactical consequences of opening the f-file with ...fxe6 were good enough to draw, at least. That overrides any longterm positional considerations, which only became relevant when Karjakin went wrong.> No, they were so only after Carlsen had made already one error. If there was a way to avoid trouble it was not the way Karjakin chose.

Now let us consider the other side of the coin. After Black has doubled the e pawn he has also denied White access to d5 and f5. White can deny Black access to d4 and f4 by c3 and g3.

Taking the latter move g3 Lasker has said that allowing the move ...Nf4 is not as dangerous as this move.

This suggests that if doubling of the e pawns is good it means that Black has to find the right way to take advantage of the move g3.

With White's win of the game it is as if Carlsen was saying < I may profit from the capture fxe3 but if you want to get away with it you must reach my level of proficiency eg with respect to taking advantage of the advance of the opposing g pawn.>

This suggests that in order to avoid paying for the choice of ...fxe6 Karjakin had to be as able to take advantage of the opposing g pawn as Carlsen was able to take advantage of it.

If Karjakin could not do this it suggests that Carlsen had nailed his weakness, namely, that he had not reached Carlsen's level of proficiency, eg with respect to taking advantage of the advance of the opposing g pawn.

All this suggests that one question for Karjakin to ask is this: Did Karjakin have a better way to take advantage of the move g3, a way which perhaps Carlsen might have found?

One example of an alternative move for Black after 13 g3 is 16...Ng5

However there may be more to it than that.

In the position after 9 Nbd2 White has a lead in development, as well as central pawn superiority and so at least some positional advantage. If 9...Nh5 is an attacking move the attack is likely to be unsound.

On 12 Ne3 White has perhaps a minimal advantage and slightly the better of it and 12..Qf6 counts as an attacking move. In that case it is an unsound attack and one which is likely to fail and increase White's slight advantage.

This suggests that the consequences of 13 g3 are less serious for White for this reason: It is White who stands better, and the attack is unsound to begin with. Moreover is 13 g3 even necessary? Considering that White is going to play 14 Kh1 in reply to 13...Nh3+ this suggests 13 Kh1 at once.

Apart from that if White can get away with g3 that means that Black is deprived of the main return for the capture ...fxe6 whilst still having to pay the price for it. The choice of ...fxe6 becomes unprofitable because Black is deprived of what he gains in return for what he ends up having to pay.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Eyal: Regarding what the players missed on moves 20-21: the tactics may be relatively simple, but it's worth noting that the patterns involving a knight on h3 are not typical of the Ruy Lopez. It's quite common for Black to bring a knight to f4 (as Karjakin did on move 11), but usually White can't push it away by g3 like he did here because h3 has already been played.
Nov-26-16  Aiuta: the next challenger will be Wesley So, he has not reached his full potential yet. beside the point, he appears to have a reflective personality, unlike his admirers here at cg. check his notes over at chessbase.
Nov-26-16  7he5haman: <Ulhumbrus: The choice of ...fxe6 becomes unprofitable because Black is deprived of what he gains in return for what he ends up having to pay.>

It has been shown, conclusively, that Black had a <forced draw> after 19...fxe6. Therefore it cannot be considered a mistake in any objective sense.

When are you finally going to admit this?

Karjakin lost because of his subsequent play, <not> because of 19...fxe6. His mistake was not playing dynamically enough.

Nov-26-16  7he5haman: You just end up looking foolish.
Nov-26-16  Captain Hindsight: Better would have been < 20. ...Nxf2 >.
Nov-26-16  lunacyfrog: <Isn't politics itself a form of collectivism?>

Not at all. Political activity guided by sound moral philosophy CAN be used to affirm that rights, values, virtue, etc. are inherent to individuals regardless of the particular racial, gender, ethnic, or other group to which they belong.

On the other hand, has collectivist ideology infested and overrun politics? Yes, pretty much everywhere in the world as far as I can tell.

Anyway, the collectivism is evil rabbit hole goes deeper than I can get into in a chess forum, but I'd be happy to discuss it further in another venue if you like.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Sally Simpson: Hi Caissanist,

When I joined Red Hot Pawn everyone starts with a grade of 1200. I was moving up the rating list and when about 1820 it was suddenly discovered who I was. Up until then my profile was blank.

Infact I was nearly banned from RHP for impersonating me! That's true. I even got a email from a good friend saying there was someone pretending to me on was me!

Someone said they really liked 'Mastering Chess' a book I co-wrote with Danny Kopec.

Next post was some lad telling me I had no right even considering writing a chess book with a RHP grade of 1820! I thought it was joke, but it turned out he was serious.

Rowson says some of the best chess advice he was ever given came from a an elderly 1400 player. I have the recollection except my elderly 'coach 'Johnny Marr' never reached 2000.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Jimfromprovidence: <Atking> <Good point to note. If I remember my classic Black is just one step too far to draw. The same position with black Kind on d6 and white Rook on e5 will be draw.>

Yes, the position draws with the black king on d6 and the white rook on e5.

Again, after 72...b6 73 axb6+ Kxb6 74 g4 hxg4+ 75 Kxg4 Kc6 here is the position.

click for larger view

It's a table base win but white must make 3 consecutive one-only winning moves from this position with best play.

The winning move is 76 Rd3. My reading is that this move works because it keeps the king on the c file and the rook in contact with the king in case black tries checks from the back rank.

click for larger view

Per the table base, the line continues 76 ...Rd6 77 Re3 Rd4+ 78 Kg5.

click for larger view

Nov-26-16  Open Defence: < Sally Simpson: Hi Caissanist, When I joined Red Hot Pawn everyone starts with a grade of 1200. I was moving up the rating list and when about 1820 it was suddenly discovered who I was. Up until then my profile was blank.

Infact I was nearly banned from RHP for impersonating me! That's true. I even got a email from a good friend saying there was someone pretending to me on was me!> wow!

Premium Chessgames Member
  harrylime: <<Richard Taylor: <<harrrylime>The Boomerang: "Yeah the guy who publicised and promoted chess like NO OTHER human being and is responsible almost single handedley for bringing down an entire corrupt Soviet Commie chess empire of CHEATS .. as well as the guy iconicly famous for producing some of the most influential and beautiful chess games known to mankind ?">> You mean he stopped the Russians from playing chess? He made some allegations about collusion, not cheating. It is not clear there was any obvious collusion. But Fischer studied the Soviet players assiduously and read and studied Shakmaty. He did things for chess, yes, but after 1972 [as <Boomerang> comments] he became increasingly eccentric and reclusive and then started promoting anti-Semitism calling Kasparov "Weinberger the Jew" and so on. He also ranted on Filipino radio stations and I would say his comments were not popular with Jewish chess players.

He wasn't "scared of Karpov" as either you or <Boomerang> think, and Karpov was confidant. They both agreed the terms were not good.

It is a pity as we missed some great games, with the result being unclear. In fact there would be that mix of Fischer with Kasparov and Karpov and Korchnoi as well as other GMs...he lived to 2008 so we missed out his games except his rather dubious match with Spassky...>>

<Richard> you're a good guy and a nice poster in here but ...

RJF ofourse WAS NOT "scared" of Karpov... you know me on here by now surely ! lol Why would I say that ??!

it was tongue in cheek sarcasm from me mate.. which gotta say involve most of my posts in here ! lol

I won't get into the rest of your post coz it's not fair sidetracking from this great game above .. x

Nov-26-16  lajube: Move 48, was it a good or bad plan to try Kg2-f3-f4-g5 and overload black's defenses, maybe eventually Kxg6?
Nov-26-16  mistreaver: For me, it was very hard to understand why 56...Rhh7 was blunder, and why 56.. Nh6 was to be prefered. Consider the following positions:

click for larger view

1 b5 cxb5 2 Rxb5 Ne3! and after Nc4 Black is not worse.

click for larger view

1 b5 cxb5 2 Rxb5 And now due to rook on d3 there is no Ne3, and therefore there is Rb6 coming, and e6 will fall.

click for larger view

1 b5 cxb5 2 Rxb5 Rc8 and next is Nf5 - Ne3

For more detailed analysis, check the full blog post about game ten:

Premium Chessgames Member
  ajile: <mistreaver:>

Nice analysis. This position is extremely subtle and difficult to judge. And especially so if you are in a time control. This is why Carlsen is simply amazing in these apparently sterile positions. You think you are safe and can just shuffle pieces but NO there is DANGER if you shuffle the wrong piece to the wrong square AT A CERTAIN POINT IN THE GAME.

Nov-27-16  Alexandro: I know that winning is the most important no matter how, but the win of Karjakin was superior than Carlsen's because: it was with less moves, with the blacks and the position was an inevitable mate or promotion of a second queen! What a beautiful game was meantime Carlsen has shown talent and insistence in this game.
Nov-27-16  Ulhumbrus: < mistreaver: For me, it was very hard to understand why 56...Rhh7 was blunder, and why 56.. Nh6 was to be prefered. Consider the following positions: > If you look at the third position which you have given Black's king's rook on h8 has access to the square c8 via the back rank for the counter-attack ...Rc8. If that rook goes to h7 it can't go to the c file as its way is obstructed by the rook on e7. The rook on e7 can't go to the c file in order to make a counter-attack as it is tied to the defence of the e6 pawn, so the rook on the h file has to do it. So by playing 56...Rhh7 Black has deprived himself of the ability to play this rook to the c file for the counter-attack ...Rc8
Nov-27-16  Atking: <mistreaver> <1 b5 cxb5 2 Rxb5 Ne3! and after Nc4 Black is not worse.> Are you sure of that? GM So seems of an opposite opinion in his comments on ChessBase. The winning process might be longer but still 3.Rd3 Nc4 4.f4 then step1 Ke2&R3b3 step2 Kd4&R3b4 step3 Ra4&a6 then Black plays b6 and Nxe6 RxN Kxd5 recovers the piece with a strong passed pawn on e5.
Nov-27-16  mistreaver: <Atking>
Nope, I am not sure, but I have analyzed the position quite a bit and haven't been able to find a plan for White against passive waiting for Black. For instance, once you accomplish the ideal Rb5-Rb4-Nc5-Kd4 setup, Black can play Na3 and Nc2+.
Nov-27-16  Atking: <mistreaver> I see. Clever! Then what about the same process with the other Rook. I mean not Rb5&Rb4 but Rb3&Rb4 the threat still the same. The difference is now a5 could be taken, but then Ra3 b6 Nb3 Ka6 NxN bxN Rba4 Rc7 Rxa5+ Kb7 Ra7+ Kc8 Ra8+ Kd7 R3a7 I suppose in this line both black rooks on 7th rank and white King on d4
Nov-27-16  mistreaver: <Atking> Firstly, Black has some nice tactical solution in this position. For instance consider the following position:

click for larger view

Here there is the following sequence:
1...Nxa5 2 Ra3 b6 3 Nb3 Ka6!?
4 Ra4 Ra7!

click for larger view

And now 5 Nxa5 b5!!
And White doesn't have anything better but to bail out with 6 Nc6+ which is a draw.

Furthermore, in the diagram below, I think White doesn't manage to place both his rooks on a file.

click for larger view

1 ... Ne3! 2 Rb2 Nc4 and now if
3 R2b4 Na3! 4 Rb6 Nc4
And black should be equal

Nov-27-16  Atking: Thanks. No doubt you did a great work about the games of this World Championship <mistreaver> however I still think your conclusion is still incomplete. On my suggestion (Your first diagram but with white King on d4) 1...Nxa5 2.Ra3 b6 3.Nb3 Ka6 4.NxN bxN 5.Rba4 Rc7 6.Rxa5+ Kb7 7.Ra7+ Kc8 8.Ra8+ Kd7 9.R3a7. True your 5...Ra7 6.Kc5 Rac7+ 7.Kd6 Rge7 8.Rxa5+ Kb6 threatening mate. Black has no problem. Thus your improvement in this line 4.R4a4 Ra7 5.NxN b5 6.Nc6+ bxR but now 7.Kc5 Rad7 8.Rxa4+ Kb7 9.Ra7+ Kc8 10.Ra8+ Kb7 11.Rb8+ Kc7 12.Re8 my impression is White chance are still alive. Even on 12...d4 13.Nxd4 Rd5+ 14.Kc4 if e6 falls N+2p should be more efficient than the Rook.
Premium Chessgames Member
  cormier: game 10
Nov-28-16  Vladimir Zukhar: Interesting game there.
Dec-03-16  Ulhumbrus: GM Wesley So has this to say of the move 16...Ng6: <Perhaps a small inaccuracy. The knight was just fine on e7, to guard the d5 and f5 squares. In fact Black has on his agenda an active option here to try to seize the initiative: 16...d5 17 exd5 cxd5 18 Nxd5 Nxd5 19 Bxd5 Rd8 20 Be4 and now comes the pin 20...Bg4! And White has to sacrifice material to get rid of this dangerous pin>

If So is right, it suggests that at this point Karjakin played too cautiously and so passed the advantage to Carlsen. Spassky said once of Petrosian < Petrosian's tactics were too passive and too cautious and this can be dangerous against an opponent who ventures something> Something like this could have happened here.

Here is a link to the page:

Dec-10-16  jerseybob: <Domdaniel: Berlin d3. Sigh.> You'd prefer the boring 4.00?
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