chessgames.com
Members · Prefs · Laboratory · Collections · Openings · Endgames · Sacrifices · History · Search Kibitzing · Kibitzer's Café · Chessforums · Tournament Index · Players · Kibitzing

(If you register a free account you won't see all these ads!)
Magnus Carlsen vs Hikaru Nakamura
Sinquefield Cup (2017), Saint Louis, MO USA, rd 6, Aug-08
Queen's Gambit Declined: Harrwitz Attack. Main Line (D37)  ·  1/2-1/2
ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

NOTE: You are using our new chess viewer, "Olga." For more info see the Olga Quickstart Guide. You can switch back to the old viewer (pgn4web) from the pulldown menu below. If you have questions or suggestions see our Olga chessforum.

explore this opening
find similar games 86 more Carlsen/Nakamura games
PGN: download | view | print Help: general | java-troubleshooting

TIP: You can step through the moves by clicking the and buttons, but it's much easier to simply use the left and right arrow keys on your keyboard.

PGN Viewer:  What is this?
For help with this chess viewer, please see the Olga Chess Viewer Quickstart Guide.
PREMIUM MEMBERS CAN REQUEST COMPUTER ANALYSIS [more info]

Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 5 OF 5 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Aug-08-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  ChessHigherCat: Remember that interview where Carlsen, misunderstanding what Ashley had to said to him, replied with irritation: "Well you can't expect me to do something brilliant in every game, in some games you have to gradually build up an advantage" or something like that. Well, now I understand, it's that a lot (most?) of his games are very mechanical and boring, and he probably knows it, although I'm sure he has won his share of brilliancy prizes.
Aug-08-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  chancho: in 2012 you hinted that Naka tamed Carlsen.

Then Naka lost about 6 classical games to him in the next three years.

I would never presume that Carlsen can no longer get the full point vs Naka or MVL.

Carlsen is too good to disregard that way.

Aug-08-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  visayanbraindoctor: <cro777: <Nf8: According to the Norwegian super computer http://analysis.sesse.net/ Carlsen missed two wins - 41.Kg5 and 43.h5.>>

The principle involved: Create a passed pawn as far away from your other locked-in pawns. Somehow I think great rook ending players like Korchnoi would have little trouble finding h5 based on this principle alone. Carlsen will be furious at himself. He is by far the best active endgame player in the world, able to squeeze wins from seemingly hopelessly dry positions, but his marvelous endgame intuition seems to desert him in rook endings.

Aug-08-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  SirRuthless: <chancho> You can presume whatever you like and I will presume whatever I like. Since the American last lost to Magnus in classical he has made what 5 draws and a win? No losses and he has had some bad positions. This isn't really about Nakamura who is always a maid but never the bride.

This is about Magnus who used to own attacking players and is slipping up recently <IN CRITICAL POSITIONS>. They talked about it in the broadcast today even so I know I am not crazy.

Aug-08-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  chancho: <Ruthless: You can presume whatever you like and I will presume whatever I like.>

Good. I never said otherwise.

<Ruthless: This isn't really about Nakamura who is always a maid but never the bride.>

That may be, but you brought up the notion that Carlsen can no longer beat Naka, <which I would never presume.>

<Ruthless: This is about Magnus who used to own attacking players and is slipping up recently <IN CRITICAL POSITIONS>.>

Three tournaments that he failed to win, (after his title defense)and that means that he is slipping.

I don't see it that way.

How long did Aronian go without winning a tournament before he regained his form and won several tournaments?

He's playing outstanding chess now.

<Ruthless: They talked about it in the broadcast today >

And?

The commentators have gotten so used to Carlsen's success that it's unusual for them to see him not winning these events.

I doubt however, that they believe that Carlsen cannot ever regain his winning form.

<Rutless: even so I know I am not crazy.>

I don't think you're crazy either.

Aug-08-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  thegoodanarchist: <chancho: in 2012 you hinted that Naka tamed Carlsen.

Then Naka lost about 6 classical games to him in the next three years.

I would never presume that Carlsen can no longer get the full point vs Naka or MVL.

Carlsen is too good to disregard that way.>

There will always be haters who badmouth anyone who is great. And no matter how wrong they are, no matter how much the evidence is against them, they know that eventually (after 5 years, 10 years, 30 years), *eventually* they will be right.

But until then, they are just obnoxious loser haters who never did anything worthwhile in their own lives. That is why they seek to tear down others.

Aug-08-17  User not found:


click for larger view

I played Dfedder earlier and reached a similar position... 3 advanced pawns to two and a rook apiece I'm not Carlsen though, he must have been tired or something because normally he'd grind a guy like Nakamura down from here. H5 was the move, just tiredness and probably boredom from these kinda end games stopped him from stepping up because if this was the WCC match he'd have ground out a point.

Aug-08-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  SirRuthless: <chancho> <thegoodanarchist>No one is making it personal. My hypothesis is only that MAgnus will never reach the highs of 2013 and that his dominant period is over now where he will be one of many brilliant young players. It doesn't mean he will never win but it does mean that the blood from stone era of his game is over. They talked about it in the broadcast today.
Aug-08-17  User not found: Then who's his nearest challenger?
Aug-08-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  SirRuthless: Don't know. I think Caruana is the closest with Aronian right behind. in terms of prep, style, temperament and talent they have what it takes to face him in a match and not implode but he does have experience. Wesley is still a little raw but he will be ready in the future. I also believe MVL, Mamedyarov and yes, Nakamura would be a great match more now than a few years ago when magnus was feasting on centipawn edges.
Aug-08-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  chancho: I remember when Vladimir Kramnik failed to win four classical tournaments in 2005.

The comments back then were in the order that Kramnik was no champion, that Topalov was the best, and that he would kick Vlad's ass in a match.

Then in October of 2006 at Elista, he defeated Topalov in a match and even started winning tournaments again.

That exact story may not repeat itself, but bear in mind that Carlsen is only 26 years of age.

Not only is he not finished imo, (still number 1) he will continue to succeed.

Why do I believe that?

Well, you can see that he has the desire to still be the best.

And since he also has the talent to help him in his quest to success, my money's on him.

Maybe I'm wrong.

We'll see.

Aug-08-17  bobthebob: <sirruthless> what certainly seems different, is that 2-3 years ago I wouldn't think that Naka can give a pawn, time on the clock, and the white pieces to Carlson and get a draw in an endgame.
Aug-08-17  Dr Winston OBoogie: Like your answer Ruthy but Nakamura was a <better opponent> chess wise 3 years ago he was just mentally weaker back then. He just kept bottling it. He played the man not the board. Ironically enough now he's playing <the board> he's another guy who'll just settle for the draw, he knows his limits and he just isn't good enough to complete with Carlsen. One swallow doesn't make a summer, to Nakamura this was his day in the sun. As for Caruana... Please!? The man is brilliant and I'd agree with you he's the nearest to Carlsen but it's like Brazil70 playing *insert another team*. You might get him on a bad day but overall he'll still destroy you in the long run.

The fact is that regardless of this year's results Carlsen's way above the rest in terms of talent, mentally stronger, more experienced (and younger than Nakamura and Aronian!) and even on an off day he's better than 90% of his peers.

Chess needs someone to <really take it to Carlsen>, I'd love to see Wesley So or Nakamura be that person but they're too scared of <him>, to play him <like Nakamura himself did in 2014>, especially Wesley So. Nakamura lacks interest in being #1 imo.

Carlsen will dominate until he can't be bothered dominating unless someone like Yi gives him a shock. There's nothing more I'd like to see than someone take Carlsen's title because that would put a rocket up his ass and give the game of chess a jolt it needs

Aug-09-17  talwnbe4: 41. Kg5 Ra4 42. Rb7 Rxe4 Rxh7 is a 4 mover. The g-pawn falls and Carlsen now has two extra pawns.
Aug-09-17  talwnbe4: 41. Kg5 Ra4 42. Rb7 h5 43. gxh5 gxh5 44. Kf4 Ra5 45. Rg7 is more than a 4-mover, and it isn't clear that Carlsen is winning, except that it looks like it's winning as the h-pawn is isolated and the black king is on the other side of it.
Aug-09-17  talwnbe4: 41. Kg5 Ke5 42. Kh6 Kxe4 43. Rf1 Kd5 44. g5 Ke5 45. Rf8 Rc7 46. Rh8 Rc4 47. Rxh7 Rc6 48. h5 gxh5+ 49. Kxh5 Rd6 50. Re7+ Kf5 51. Rf7+ Ke5 52. g6 this is way more than a 4-mover and probably what carlsen missed. The g-pawn advances

a real ending puzzle

Aug-09-17  Ulhumbrus: Some of the computer analysis helps to suggest that it is more difficult for Black to draw after 43 h5 than it is difficult for Black to draw after 43 g5.

All the same, Nakamura has drawn a rook and pawn ending a pawn down against Carlsen and only the strongest players in the world have managed to do that.

Aug-09-17  studentt: 14...Bxb2 possible, free pawn?
Aug-09-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  SirRuthless: <talwnbe4> Carlsen said in the presser he didn't really go into that line. He looked at Kg5 Ke5 and just <felt> black had enough play and should hold. He didn't even look at that or if he did it was implied somehow but left unsaid.

The question I have isn't how Carlsen could've won but whether black chose a defense that could hold before blundering near the time control. Is that endgame down a pawn a book draw or can it be transformed with best play by black to a book draw?

Aug-09-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  SirRuthless: <studentt> 13...Bxb2 is actually suggested by the engine and after 14.Bxc6 Bxc1 15.Bxd5 Bx3 16.Bh6 Be6(important not to try to avoid The Exchange because Rd8 for instance and now Qd4-Qg7# is an unmeetable threat now since f6 is no longer possible due to the Bd5 Xray on he g8K. Black needs to get in Be6 before Qd4 is played and no time to save the rook. ) 17.Qd4 f6 (stops mate threat on g7) and Bxf8 Kxf8(important to take with the King and not the Q because Qxf8 leaves e6 Hanging)

White is better because of his 4v3 kingside and better coordination but black has 2v1 Q side in that line and maybe it could still be a three result game. Stockfish 8 d=40 gives white +0.4 of a pawn in that line with fluctuating eval.

Aug-09-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <<Ulhumbrus> Some of the computer analysis helps to suggest that it is more difficult for Black to draw after 43 h5 than it is difficult for Black to draw after 43 g5.>

That's an understatement. See my posts Carlsen vs Nakamura, 2017 (kibitz #21) and Carlsen vs Nakamura, 2017 (kibitz #29). Both the Lomonosov tablebases and Stockfish 8 (if you let it analyze long enough) indicate that White has a theoretical win after 43.h5 gxh5 44.gxh5.

Aug-09-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  cro777: All rook endgames are drawn... except for those that aren't!

The rook and three pawns versus rook and two pawns endgame that has arisen after 36Kxe6 is very instructive:


click for larger view

Generally, in this type of endgame a passed pawn for the stronger side usually ensures victory, if the opponent doesn't have any positional compensation. But here Nakamura has compesation in better activity of his pieces. The main task for the defending side is not to allow any Kg5 (opening a path to the h7 pawn). The position might be objectively drawn, but Nakamura made a mistake near the time control:

37. h4 Ra2 38. Rb1 Ra7 39. Kf4


click for larger view

39...Ra4+? This was a mistake. (Here was the right moment to play h6).

After 40. e4 Ra7 Carlsen could have won by playing 41.Kg5 and if 41Ke5 then 42.Kh6 Kxe4 43.Rf1!

Aug-09-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  cro777: Why did Carlsen miss the win?

"That was extremely sloppy of me," said Carlsen. He thought that it should be winning anyway.

Position after 40Ra7


click for larger view

In fact, Carlsen was considering the correct move 41.Kg5, expecting 41Ke5. "I just intuitively felt he should have enough counterplay and then I went on to look at other variations. The problem was that I thought at that point that it should be winning anyway and that there was no reason to rush."

After 41Ke5 (considered by Carlsen) the winning line is:

41... Ke5 42. Kh6 Kxe4 43. Rf1! Rb7 44. g5 Rc7 45. Rf8 Rd7 46. Rh8 Kf5 47. Rxh7

Aug-10-17  talwnbe4: <SirRuthless>

13. Bxb2 isn't possible.. as the B isn't on f6.. 14..Bxb2? 15.Bxh7+

You meant 16..Bxb2

Sep-13-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  Jonathan Sarfati: <visayanbraindoctor: <cro777: <Nf8: According to the Norwegian super computer http://analysis.sesse.net/ Carlsen missed two wins - 41.Kg5 and 43.h5.>> The principle involved: Create a passed pawn as far away from your other locked-in pawns. Somehow I think great rook ending players like Korchnoi would have little trouble finding h5 based on this principle alone. Carlsen will be furious at himself. He is by far the best active endgame player in the world, able to squeeze wins from seemingly hopelessly dry positions, but his marvelous endgame intuition seems to desert him in rook endings.>

I wonder if it was something else: the rule of thumb that ♖-♙s can be quite drawish in both ♖ endgames and ♙ endgames. So if the passed ♙ were used in normal decoy mode, he might have thought that the remaining ♖ + ♖♙ v ♖ endgame would be drawn. He might not have considered that your rule of thumb, making passed ♙s as distant as possible, would override the rule about ♖-♙s.

Jump to page #    (enter # from 1 to 5)
search thread:   
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 5 OF 5 ·  Later Kibitzing>
NOTE: You need to pick a username and password to post a reply. Getting your account takes less than a minute, totally anonymous, and 100% free--plus, it entitles you to features otherwise unavailable. Pick your username now and join the chessgames community!
If you already have an account, you should login now.
Please observe our posting guidelines:
  1. No obscene, racist, sexist, or profane language.
  2. No spamming, advertising, or duplicating posts.
  3. No personal attacks against other members.
  4. Nothing in violation of United States law.
  5. No posting personal information of members.
Blow the Whistle See something that violates our rules? Blow the whistle and inform an administrator.


NOTE: Keep all discussion on the topic of this page. This forum is for this specific game and nothing else. If you want to discuss chess in general, or this site, you might try the Kibitzer's Café.
Messages posted by Chessgames members do not necessarily represent the views of Chessgames.com, its employees, or sponsors.
Spot an error? Please submit a correction slip and help us eliminate database mistakes!
This game is type: CLASSICAL (Disagree? Please submit a correction slip.)

Featured in the Following Game Collections [what is this?]
11_R+P (3:2)|| on the same wing
by whiteshark
Live favorites
by netlava


home | about | login | logout | F.A.Q. | your profile | preferences | Premium Membership | Kibitzer's Café | Biographer's Bistro | new kibitzing | chessforums | Tournament Index | Player Directory | Notable Games | World Chess Championships | Opening Explorer | Guess the Move | Game Collections | ChessBookie Game | Chessgames Challenge | Store | privacy notice | contact us
Copyright 2001-2017, Chessgames Services LLC