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AlphaZero (Computer) vs Stockfish (Computer)
AlphaZero - Stockfish Match (2018), London ENG, Jan-18
Italian Game: Two Knights Defense. Fried Liver Attack (C57)  ·  1-0
ANALYSIS [x]

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Kibitzer's Corner
Jan-10-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  keypusher:


click for larger view

Not deep or anything, but you gotta love White's 32nd move.

Jan-10-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  offramp: The games of this match are, like Clark's one year membership to the Jelly of the Month Club, a gift that keeps on giving.

For a start the average length of the games <must> be over 100 moves.

If you wonder to yourself, <"How do I play the Italian Game: Two Knights Defence, Fried Liver Attack,"> then these are the paradigms to refer to, not 2-year-old books written by puny hu-mans LOL.

Jan-10-19  zanzibar: OK, these games are floating in the <CG> bowl of games without the proper context to really interpret the results.

I've faced the Fried Liver in a few games, and I pretty much show my limitations by always, and I do mean always, playing 5...Na5.

So, even though 5...Nxd5 is cited as being book, it's losing. My version of SF10 recognizes this as well. So this game must be "pre-programmed".

But <CG> doesn't show that for the game (it's just floating in the bowl afterall). It has to be deduced (which could be erroneous, but I highly doubt it).

So <offramp> should maybe review his comment - given the clear human influence on SF's loss here (?).

I should also note that not having a round number also enhances the bowlishness of the game.

As do the 15-digit(?) round numbers in some of the other A0-SF games.

C'est suffit.

Jan-10-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  keypusher: <zanzibar> <Sargon> said somewhere cg was going to segregate the games played with preset openings at some point. In the meantime, these games can be identified because of the "book" notation after the first few moves, and in a list view by the pencil icon.

<offramp>'s point, I think, is that A0 and SF give you good ideas on how to play this and similar openings, even if they'd never choose to play them themselves. (See also AlphaZero vs Stockfish, 2018 -- if anyone ever writes another book or even a chapter about the Evans Gambit, you can bet they'll talk about that game).

And even though 5....Nxd5 is not a very good move, it's not like it's a forced loss or anything (after 6.ed Nxd5 7.Nxf7 my SF10 shows +0.48 after 9 minutes cogitation). A0 got a draw with Black with it.

Jan-10-19  zanzibar: <kp>

Aside- giving the time for the eval would be a little more useful if the depth were also included, for comparative purposes of course.

My set-up gave +1.18/37, which I consider losing against A0.

OK, that aside aside, my lament above is clearly directly at <CG> - which could be "better than the rest if only it was as good as 'em".

Basically, how hard would it be to have a script add a comment for all the book games explaining the situation in plain terms?

Yeah, us aficionados either know, or can figure it out... but the point remains. And let's remember what the common meaning of a book move means.

(I'm still wondering about how/who choose the book openings - guess I have to read the background material a little closer.)

Jan-10-19  zanzibar: <kp> ah, let's note that the eval I gave was for when White replies with the best move, unlike the game, when your eval applies.
Jan-10-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  keypusher: <zanzibar: <kp> ah, let's note that the eval I gave was for when White replies with the best move, unlike the game, when your eval applies.>

No doubt 6.d4 gets the better evaluation. But of course the knight sacrifice was still "book" in this game. I still shouldn't have said that ...Nxd5 is only +0.48, though.

I assume engine developers play these dubious openings in engine v. engine events (the pre-set openings A0 and SF played against each other were taken from the 2016 TCEC event) so they'll get more decisive games. Curiosity is probably a motive too -- you don't get to see good players playing the Fried Liver too often.

Jan-11-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  offramp: <zanzibar> I knew, as <Keypusher> did, that the openings were taken from the TCEC 2106 event. I do not know what degree of human intervention there was at TCEC.

I do not play this opening, but in the future it may come up in an online blitz game. If I decided to study it I would not begin that study with a game by El Greco, I'd start it here.

<keypusher: ...And even though 5....Nxd5 is not a very good move, it's not like it's a forced loss or anything (after 6.ed Nxd5 7.Nxf7 my SF10 shows +0.48 after 9 minutes cogitation). A0 got a draw with Black with it.>

Yes, Stockfish vs AlphaZero, 2018 was a draw with the same opening.

There may be many more of these games still unreleased, with more Fried Livers. We will have to become Fried Liver Miners, like data-miners but with liver.

Feb-12-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  Check It Out: Good comments all, thanks for drawing attention to these games.
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