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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
Later Kibitzing > |
| Sep-28-04 |
| S4NKT: 8. ... fd7 is better because blocking the king with the king's knight is always better than blocking the king with the queen's knight when possible, right? |
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Sep-28-04
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| wkargel: I am currently in the middle of a correspondence game with this very variation...I have only recently began trying out the Modern Benoni, mainly because of it's reputation as a "fighting" defense for Black against 1.d4...I am not at all familiar with specific variations as of yet, so the Taimanov Variation is new to me, and I have yet to really see what is good/bad about it...I had read somewhere about a couple of lines in the Modern Benoni that were sharper, and I went that direction...the choice of Nfd7 seemed to be the correct move to block the attack on my king...checking Opening Explorer here allowed me to discover what variation I was playing...here is the game so far...it is still fairly early-on...in fact, it is my turn to move: [Round "NA"]
[White "FatMac"]
[Black "Bill Kargel"]
[Result "*"]
[Termination "in progress"]
[Mode "ICS"]
[DateLastMove "2004.9.20"]
[Board "787058"]
[BlackCountry "USA"]
[WhiteCountry "GER"]
* A67 Modern Benoni Defense, Taimanov Variation
1. d4 Ng8f6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 e6 4. Nb1c3 exd5 5. cxd5 d6 6. e4 g6 7. f4 Bf8g7
8. Bf1b5 Nf6d7 9. a4 a6 10. Bb5d3 O-O 11. Ng1f3 Rf8e8 12. O-O Qd8a5 13. Ra1a3 Nd7f6 14. Qd1e1 Regards |
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| Nov-10-04 |
| bens oni: I don't want to play your match for you, so I'll simply say that I don't like your present position from a Black point of view. White does not have a clear advantage by any means, but I don't see a lot of promise for Black. Better IMHO would have been 10...Qh4+. 9.a6 is intended to help you choose where you'll eventually retreat your Queen to after 11.g3. Depending on the how you want to address Bd3, you could have chosen to move your Queen to either e7 or d8, now the only option is d8 (or staying out of the way on a5). Good chess and keep us posted! |
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| Nov-10-04 |
| bens oni: The Taimonov is as close to a refutation of the Benoni as there is. Given a choice between the Nimzo-Indian and the Taimanov, I'll take the NI every game (speaking as a Benoni fan). As others have mentioned above, I prefer the move order 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf6 c5 to enter the Benoni. If White chooses 3.Nc3 instead, I feel that going with 3...Bb4 or 3..d5 offer better chances than risking that White is booked up on the Taimanov. |
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| Nov-10-04 |
| SicilianDragon: S4NKT, 8...Nfd7 is preferable because it opens up the bishsop so it can help defend the e5-square. White's plan in the Taimanov is to facilitate a quck e4-e5 push to quickly overwhelm black. The move 8...Nfd7 does more to help black's defenses than a move like 8...Bd7 or 8...Nbd7 because although they both develop an extra piece, they do a lot less in stopping the impending avalanche of e4-e5! |
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| Nov-10-04 |
| RisingChamp: I hate it when ppl say such an such opening is unsound when that opening is unsound even though it has been played for years at a GM level.And 56% after Nfd7 is not at all bad.55% is what u could expect from any mainline opening and in the specific line that is supposed to refute this opening White scores only 56% IMO perfectly playable.And why is the Benoni definitely better than the Budapest? |
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Nov-10-04
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| wkargel: Well, for the record, I did indeed end up losing that correspondence game...then again, I half-expected to lose anyway, as my opponent was rated nearly 200 points higher than I was! Oh well, live and learn! :-P Regards,
Bill
[Date "2004.9.6"]
[White "FatMac"]
[Black "Bill Kargel"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Termination "Black resigned"]
[Mode "ICS"]
[DateLastMove "2004.10.14"]
[ECO "A67"]
[BlackCountry "USA"]
[WhiteCountry "GER"]
* A67 Modern Benoni Defense, Taimanov Variation
1. d4 Ng8f6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 e6 4. Nb1c3 exd5 5. cxd5 d6 6. e4 g6 7. f4 Bf8g7 8. Bf1b5 Nf6d7 9. a4 a6 10. Bb5d3 O-O 11. Ng1f3 Rf8e8 12. O-O Qd8a5 13. Ra1a3 Nd7f6 14. Qd1e1 c4 15. Bd3c2 Nb8d7 16. Qe1h4 Qa5c5 17. Kg1h1 h6 18. e5 dxe5 19. f5 g5 20. Bc1xg5 hxg5 21. Nf3xg5 Qc5b4 22. Nc3e4 Nf6xe4 23. Bc2xe4 Nd7f6 24. Ra3g3 Qb4e7 25. Ng5h7 Nf6xh7 26. f6 Black Resigned 1-0 |
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| Nov-11-04 |
| bens oni: <RisingChamp> I agree that the Benoni is most decidedly not unsound. Many people (including some GM's) have argued in the past that the Taimanov was a refutation of the Benoni and others have argued that the entire defense is positionally unsound on balance. I do think that if the NI is in your repertoire you may find better results with it than against the Taimanov Attack. But players certainly can choose to meet the Taimanov head on with some degree of confidence. The decalaration of the Benoni being unsound is little more than a typical arrogance often seen in certain circles. I have my own theories on the origins of this arrogance, but that amateur psychology is neither here nor there. I think that the successful use of the Benoni by GMs from Tal to Fischer to a young Kasparov to Psakhis to Topalev and a number of others is refutation enough of that arrogance. Not to mention that with the WC on the line, Kramnik brought it out against Leko (and should have won the endgame but for a mistake). As to the Budapest vs. the Benoni-
My knowledge of the Budapest is admittedly much less that than my knowledge of the Benoni, first of all. But here's my thoughts for what they're worth... 3...Ng4 can be problematic for Black. Look no further than Lalic-Mukic, which is given by NCO as best vs. the Budapest for White. That being said, Lalic himself offers 12...Qe7! (Akesson-Tagnon, Berlin 1984) as an improvement over the played 12...Ba7?! in that game. However, Black's options are limited and if White is well-read the 3...Ng4 lines can be hard to play as Black with success. 3...Ne4!? (Fajarowicz Variation) does offer some attacking opportunities for Black if 3...Ng4 isn't working out for you. Overall however, I think that White's ideas in the Budapest are fairly straightforward. The caveat to that is that they need to be up on the theory/familiar with the lines. But a well-prepared White player should find an easier time in the Budapest than in the often cloudy positions of the Benoni (IMHO). That's not to say it can't be used and used successfully at most levels by Black. |
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| Mar-16-05 |
| Backward Development: I have always called this variation the 'Sokolov Line': I guess Bb5+ is the taimanov line, and within it is the Sokolov Line. I am of course referring to the game
I Sokolov vs Topalov, 1996 which surprisingly has little kibitzing)<A big win at Wijk aan Zee and a theoretically important game!?>.
Burgess gives a quite funny anecdote regarding this variation in his book 'Chess.'
<This is one of the more notoriously sharp opening lines, to which a lot of English juniors devoted excessive amounts<literally hundreds of hours> of analysis to in the mid-80's. I was involved in two such analysis groups. It was quite amusing when meeting other 8...Nbd7 fanatics at chess events around the country, suddenly to start talking about some variation starting at move 25<to see if they had found it too!>. This was certainly bewildering for other players not in on the secret, with dialogue such as:
"Have you found the queen sac in that line yet?"
"Er, which one?"
"The one where you get rook and six pawns against two knights and one." "Oh, that one; no, you're way behind, the one where the king almost gets mated on b1!" "But we refuted that line last month; the king is safe on a5."
...and so on.> |
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| Apr-28-05 |
| Mefisto6: Mefisto6: Most of the comments here are merely theoretical. The benoni is perfectly playable against players rated -2400 and even above. A good way to avoid the taimanov attack is to play 1. .. e6 e.g. 1. d4 e6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 exd5 4. cxd4 d6 5. Nc3 g6 6. e4 Bg7 7. f4 a6!
another benefit of playing 1. .. e6 is that you play Ne7 and a quick f5 against the modern main line (h3 Nf3 Bd3) |
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| Apr-28-05 |
| Backward Development: Indeed. There are many move orders to play the modern benoni that might be theoretically superior to 2...c5. The most common is to play 1...Nf6 and 2...e6, but if 3.Nc3, the taimanov can't really be avoided.
A King's Indian move order seems to be more acceptable.
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6.Be2 c5 7. d5 e6 8. O-O exd5 9. cxd5 and you've reached the classical variation of the Benoni, it's about equal. I also recently played against another move order, delaying e6.
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 d6 4. Nc3 g6 5. e4 Bg7 and Black plays ...e6 transposing into Modern Benoni avoiding the taimanov line<although not the 4 pawns.> |
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| Nov-14-05 |
| Achilles: 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 c5 3 d5 e6 4 Nc3 exd5 5 cxd5 d6 6 e4 g6
7 f4 Bg7 8 Bb5+
How about 9...Bd7 somebody says Black is in the worst problem how?? after 10.after e4 .....Nh4 whats comes up kindly give me some games that proved black is in trouble!!! |
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| Nov-14-05 |
| Achilles: 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 c5 3 d5 e6 4 Nc3 exd5 5 cxd5 d6 6 e4 g6
7 f4 Bg7 8 Bb5+
How about 9...Bd7 somebody says Black is in the worst position how?? after 10.after e4 .....Nh4 whats comes up kindly give me some games that proved black is in trouble!!! |
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| Dec-08-05 |
| MoonlitKnight: The refutation of 8...Nbd7 that was presented by <BiLL RobeRTiE> on Mar-03-04 is in fact a forced draw with correct play. In fact, I recently played a game myself in this line which showed proof of that point. In the game, my opponent, rated over 200 points higher than me, quickly had to agree to a draw after he had played the so-called refutation: [Event "Norwegian team championship"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2005.12.04"]
[Round "2"]
[White "James Steedman"]
[Black "Haakon Strand"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "A67"]
[WhiteElo "2232"]
[BlackElo "1986"]
[PlyCount "48"]
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 e6 4. Nc3 exd5 5. cxd5 d6 6. e4 g6 7. f4 Bg7 8. Bb5+
Nbd7 9. e5 dxe5 10. fxe5 Nh5 11. e6 Qh4+ 12. g3 Nxg3 13. hxg3 Qxh1 14. Be3
Bxc3+
<Also playable is 14...0-0, but after 15.exd7 Bxd7 16.Bxd7 Rae8 17.Bxe8 Rxe8 18.Qe2! (not 18.Kd2 Bxc3+ 19.bxc3 Qxd5+ 20.Kc1 Qxd1+! 21. Kxd1 Rxe3 with about equal play) white should be close to winning.> 15. bxc3 a6 16. exd7+ Bxd7 17. Bxd7+ Kxd7 18. Qb3 b5 19. O-O-O Rhe8 20.
Bxc5
<Here we arrive at the position which is supposed to be "much better for white" according to several sources. The best continuation is probably 18.Qg4+ f5 19.Qf3 with reasonable saving chances for black, as in S Ernst vs Stellwagen, 2003; 20...Qg2! <A key move, which ties down the white forces.> 21. d6 Re6 22. Ba3 Rc8 23. Bb4 Qxg3?! <Heading for the draw. After 23...Rc4, black is slightly better.> 24. Qd5 Rxc3+
<I played this move almost instantly, accompanied by a draw offer, since it had been a key part of my plan all along. To my horror, I suddenly discovered that white had 25.Kb1 Rc6 26.Qxc6+ Kxc6 27.d7, but after a little more thought I found 27...Qf4 28.d8=Q Qxb4+ with a perpetual. In the post-mortem we realized there was even a win for black with 27...Re4! 28.Ba5 Rd4!! A more interesting continuation, however, would have been 26.Nf3, but with the help of Fritz, this line has been analyzed to a forced draw after 26...Qf4 27.Nd4 Rexd6 28.Bxd6 Rxd6 29.Qb7+ Ke8 30.Qc8+ Ke7 31.Re1+ Kf6 32.Qh8+ Kg5 33.Rg1+ Kh6 34.Qf8+ Kh5 35.Rh1+ Kg4 36.Qe7 Rxd4! since the rook and three passers are more than enough compensation for the queen.> 1/2-1/2 |
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| Dec-13-05 |
| sucaba: In J Rowson vs R Palliser, 2005, after
8. _ bd7 9. e5 dxe5 10. fxe5 h5 11. e6  h4+ 12. g3 xg3 13. hxg3 xh1 14.  e3 xc3+ 15. bxc3 a6 16. exd7+ xd7 17. xd7+  xd7 18. g4+ f5 19. f3 xf3 20. xf3  ae8 Rowson played 21. d2. To keep the in the center where it can support the c and d seems to be an improvement on the more often played 21. f2.
Although this ending is drawish anyway.
In G Burgess vs J Anderson, 1985, Burgess himself gave 4 checks in a row 14. exd7+ xd7 15. xd7+ xd7 16. g4+ f5 17. a4+ c8 18. e3  .
I don't understand why this prosperous looking line hasn't been tried recently. |
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| Dec-13-05 |
| MoonlitKnight: <sucaba> Instead of Anderson's 18...Bh6, Bxc3+ followed by either Qxd5 or Qg2 seems like a more modern approach, though I agree white's position still looks promising. I guess the reason why this hasn't been tried is simply the fact that very few strong players will even consider playing 8...Nbd7. |
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| May-16-06 |
| WTHarvey: Here is a little collection of zaps and traps from Taimanov miniatures: http://www.wtharvey.com/a67.html What's the best move? |
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| Aug-30-06 |
| yanez: I think black has a good position after 8...Nfd7 9.a4 0-0 10.Nf3 Na6 11.0-0 Nb4 12.h3 f5 |
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Aug-31-06
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| Albertan: Another triumph for the Taimanov variation:
[Event "It"]
[Site "Hereford ENG"]
[Date "2006.08.29"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Wells, P."]
[Black "Palliser, R."]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A67"]
[WhiteElo "2480"]
[BlackElo "2413"]
[PlyCount "64"]
[EventDate "2006.08.29"]
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 e6 4.Nc3 exd5
5.cxd5 d6 6.e4 g6 7.f4 Bg7 8.Bb5+ Nbd7 9.e5 dxe5 10.fxe5 Nh5 11.e6 Qh4+
12.g3 Nxg3 13.hxg3 Qxh1 14.Be3 Bxc3+ 15.bxc3 a6 16.exd7+ Bxd7 17.Bxd7+ Kxd7 18.Qg4+ f5 19.Qf3 Qxf3 20.Nxf3 Rhe8 21.Kf2 Re4 22.Ng5 Ra4 23.Nxh7 Rh8
24.Rh1 Kd6 25 Bf4+ Kxd5 26.Nf6+ Ke6 27.Rxh8 Kxf6 28.Rc8 Rxa2+ 29.Ke3 g5 30.Bb8 Ra5 31.Kd3 Ke6 32.Rg8 Kf6 1-0 The first 21 moves in this game were known theory then on move 22 Palliser appears to have played a theoretical novelty 22...Ra4 (before this game the move 22...Rc4 had only been played). |
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| Oct-25-06 |
| soughzin: Great post and game MoonlitKnight. Do you know if the move 12.Kd2 is drawn as well? 12...fxe6 13.dxe6 Bxc3+ 14.bxc3 0-0 15.Nf3(15.exd7 Bxd7 16.Bxd7 Rf2 17.Ne2 Rd8) But black can invert the moves a little. 13...0-0 14.exd7 Bxd7 15.Bxd7 Bxc3+ 16.Kxc3 since the light squared bishop can't be forked by the queen now. 16...Qb4+ 17.Kc2 Rf2+ 18.Ne2 Qe4+ 19.Qd3 Rxe2+ 20.Bd2 And now it's less forced but 20...Nf6 21.Qxe4 Nxe4 22.Rad1 Rd8 23.Rhe1 Rxd2+ 24.Rxd2 Nxd2 And it looks like a drawn endgame. phew thats a mouthful!
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Oct-26-06
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| plang: It is interesting that the variation is named after Taimanov as there is only one game by him here. |
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| Oct-26-06 |
| RookFile: I'm more inclined to play ....c5 after 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 than against 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 |
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| Oct-26-06 |
| nikolajewitsch: It is not that odd, considering that there are numerous examples of lines being named after players who have never played them. |
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| Aug-31-09 |
| WhiteRook48: 8...Nbd7 9 e5 allows white to set the board on fire
8...Nfd7 has only a small plus for white |
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Sep-07-09
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| Phony Benoni: <plang: It is interesting that the variation is named after Taimanov as there is only one game by him here.> Which probably indicates nobody was anxious to let him play it again! |
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