< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 6 OF 7 ·
|Feb-08-09|| ||parisattack: <blacksburg: would you believe that this is the 3rd most popular opening in the cg.com database? right after the reti and the c3 sicilian, and above the najdorf!>|
Did not know that; interesting! Lots of paths in the Robatsch: The older main lines with ...c6/d6, the modern Tiger with ...a6, the Hippo, the Gurgenize with ...c6/d5, the North Sea with 2. ...Nf6.
|Feb-09-09|| ||An Englishman: Good Evening: <freeman8201>, the biggest difference between the Modern and the Robatsch is the name. Keene and Botterill suggested the name "Modern Defense" in their seminal and still useful early Seventies book The Modern Defense. Previously it had been known as Irregular, Robatsch, and even Mongredian Defense. The authors felt that the recent treatment of the defense was so unlike anything that had been played before that it deserved a new name.|
The bigger question is the difference between the Pirc and the Modern or Robatsch. The Pirc is almost always 1...d6 and 2...Nf6, while the other delays or even omits ...Nf6. Obviously, the variations transpose into each other frequently, and the openings annotators give assign to the games can be quite arbitrary and inconsistent.
The good news is this: you're not confused, other people are!
|Mar-30-09|| ||parisattack: What's in a name? Pirc is generally ...g6 with ...Nf6 when White does not play c4. Modern is generally ...g6 without ...Nf6 when White plays c4. Robatsch is ...g6 without ...Nf6 when White does not play c4.|
In Chess on the Edge the argument is made that the Robatsch should be properly called the Rat.
Robatsch or Rat, lots of ways for Black to play it:
Classical with ...c6 and ...d6
Gurgenidze with ...c6 and ...d5
Tiger with ... a6
Hippo with ...d6, ...e6
Pterodactyl with ...c5
North Sea with 2. ...Nf6
Kotov with ...Nc6
Most of them can morph into a Pirc with an early ...Nf6
I've seen also ...d5 and ...c5 though no one seems to claim it with respect to a name.
|Mar-30-09|| ||keypusher: <An Englishman>
"Modern" is a pretty presumptuous name for an opening that is so uncommon. If truth-in-advertising laws applied to chess the only defense that could be called Modern would be the Sicilian.
|Mar-30-09|| ||chessman95: <blacksburg: would you believe that this is the 3rd most popular opening in the cg.com database? right after the reti and the c3 sicilian, and above the najdorf!>|
I don't know where you got that. A simple search for games under the ECOs B90-B99 (the Najdorf) brings up 14,047 games http://www.chessgames.com/perl/ches... while a search for the ECO B06 (the Robatsch) only brings up 6,800 results http://www.chessgames.com/perl/ches.... Going through the opening explorer brings similar results.
As far as the debate on what the different names mean, I really don't have a clue. The ECO listing might be able to clarify some of this...
|Mar-31-09|| ||cuendillar: It's more accurate to say it's the most common <ECO code> rather than the most used opening. |
As you noted the Najdorf is split into ten different codes - the old main line Bg5 is split into 6 different codes, while the new main move Be3 is grouped with the most uncommon ones - making that the most usual code.
The popularity of the Najdorf is much better illustrated by the fact that it is the latest-defined line in the top 20...
|Mar-31-09|| ||chessman95: <it's the most common <ECO code>>|
That doesn't mean much, because the Robatsch only has one ECO, while things like the Najdorf have many, so the beginning ECOs only cover minor variations, while the later ECOs only cover those very specific lines.
|Apr-07-09|| ||parisattack: Books on the Robatsch
Also quite a lot of material in: 1) Myers’ Opening Bulletins, 2) Rand Springer magazine and 3) Kaissiber magazine. Five of the little ‘Trends’ booklets on the ‘Modern’ Defence.
No particular order:
Tiger’s Modern – Persson
Modern Defence – Speelman/McDonald
The Hippopotamus Rises – Martin
Black to Play and Win with 1. …g6 by Soltis
Winning with the Modern by Norwood
The Modern Defence by Hort
The Modern Defense by Smith/Hall
The Modern Defence by Keene/Botterill
The Modern Defense by Chess Digest
The North Sea Variation by Bickford
Averbakh system by Thomas
Modern Defense Averbakh Lines by Schiller
New Ideas in the Rat by Schiller
Die Robatsch Verteidigung by Warzecha
Die Eidechse 1. …g6 und gewinnt, 3 volumes.
The Robatsch has always been my favorite black defense. If anyone can add to this list, it would be appreciated!
|Apr-07-09|| ||chessman95: <parisattack> Do you know of any books that specifically cover the Pterodactyl, or any of those books that have good sections on it? I'm interested in learning more about that 'system'.|
|Apr-07-09|| ||blacksburg: <chessman95> <I don't know where you got that.>|
i found that statistic on this page -
ChessGames.com Statistics Page
yeah, of course the sicilian is played more, but i just thought it was interesting that robatsch was 3rd on this particular list.
|Apr-07-09|| ||chessman95: <blacksburg> I didn't think to look at that page. The only problem is that with things like the "Najdorf" listed as B90, it only counts variations without ECOs, like the English Attack and other 'minor' Najdorfs. Lots of interesting things on that page though...|
|Apr-07-09|| ||parisattack: <chessman95: <parisattack> Do you know of any books that specifically cover the Pterodactyl, or any of those books that have good sections on it? I'm interested in learning more about that 'system'.>|
For as common (relatively) as it is, there's not much on it. A few short mentions, a game here or there. Winning with the Modern by Norwood has a chapter on the Pterodactyl.
Check the most current entries on Eric Schiller's page here on CG.com. He has played it a lot and apparently has an ebook on it forthcoming.
|Apr-08-09|| ||parisattack: On my list of Robatsch tomes I neglected to mention: Konigs-Fianchetto by Schwarz. I think this was the last (1984) of the once well-known Schwarz opening series.|
Can anyone add to the list - English or foreign?
|Jun-26-09|| ||V Snakoto: For some useful information on the Pterodactyl variation with ...g6, ...Bg7, ...c5, and ...Qa5, see Eric Schiller's lengthy article at:|
|Nov-11-09|| ||parisattack: Opening of the Day and no comments on my favorite defense? Like hypermodernism in general it is under a cloud at the moment.|
Lots of fun variations to the Robatsch to fit different styles, much uncharted territory... I had good success with the Gurgenidze Variation and when it is played nowadays it seems to continue to do well with adventurous players still essaying new ideas and move orders.
|Jan-07-10|| ||parisattack: The Robatsch is scoring very well for Black of late in the CG database. The Hippo and flavors thereof being especially rewarding for Black. It is probably time to begin catagorizing the Hippo or at least identifying the various Black motifs...IM Day, GM Keene?|
|Mar-08-10|| ||rapidcitychess: The reason I play the Robatsch/Modern is because if he angles for trading Bishops, I can keep my Knight on g8 and stop the bishop trade. Most of the time, White plays f4 and I happily play the Rat variation of the Pirc.|
|Apr-07-10|| ||parisattack: We had a player at our club - ELO 1400 or so - who essayed the Robatsch so he wouldn't get back-rank mated. To each, his own. :)|
|Apr-24-10|| ||rapidcitychess: I'm on ICC and roughly 1400 ELO, but what makes this differ from the Pirc?(which I also essay.)How can you make the middle game different and less cramped.|
|Apr-24-10|| ||keypusher: <parisattack: We had a player at our club - ELO 1400 or so - who essayed the Robatsch so he wouldn't get back-rank mated. >|
When I think of all the silly reasons people (including me) pick an opening, I have to admire your clubfellow's realism.
<rapidcitychess: I'm on ICC and roughly 1400 ELO, but what makes this differ from the Pirc?>
The Pirc is a little more "forcing": 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 and now usually 3.Nc3 to defend the KP (though 3.Bd3 and 3.f3 are alternatives). The Robatch gives White lots of choices for his third move: 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 and White can play just about anything under the sun.
The Robatch's countervailing virtue is supposed to be flexibility: Black doesn't have to put his N on f6, and can keep it home for a long time. He hasn't moved a center pawn, so he can try to play ...d7-d5 in one go, or do something completely different.
<How can you make the middle game different and less cramped.>
Different is easy. Less cramped is tougher. :-)
|Apr-24-10|| ||parisattack: <Different is easy. Less cramped is tougher. :-)>|
The most recent trend in the Tiger variation (...a6) is to expand the Q-side as quickly as possible. Less cramped but black's position can get *very* loose. Several examples in the CG.com database which, BTW, continues to show fine results for black.
|Apr-24-10|| ||refutor: here's one from my own games, if i may be so bold, with some queenside expansion that works out|
NN - Refutor Correspondence 2008-09
1.e4 g6 2.d4 d6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.f4 a6! 5.Nf3 b5 6.Bd3 Nd7 7.e5 c5 8.Be4!? Hillarp-Persson's annotation 8. ...Rb8 9.Be3 b4 10.Ne2 Qc7 11.c3 Nh6 12.h3 Bb7 13.Ng3 bxc3 14.bxc3 Bxe4 15.Nxe4 Qc6 16.Qd3 c4 17.Qc2 Nf5 18.Bc1 d5 19.Neg5 f6 20.exf6 exf6 21.Qe2+ Kf8 22.Qe6 Qxe6+ 23.Nxe6+ Kf7 24.Nc7 Ng3 25.Rg1 Nb6 26.Kd1 Na4 27.Nxd5 Rhd8 28.Nb4 Rd6! 29.Bd2 a5 30.a3 axb4 31.axb4 Nb6 and i eventually won
space wasn't an issue in that game. if you do get Hillarp-Persson's book be warned that he definitely annotates as a fan of the black side. i definitely found myself second guessing some of his evaluations...
|Apr-24-10|| ||parisattack: <refutor:> Nice example of the 'accelerated Tiger' variation. I especially like how you maintained the central tension...|
The Old Main Line with 4. ...c6 still has life in it, IMHO.
Yes, Tiger's evaluations are a tad optimistic in places - ditto Martin's Hippo tome.
|Apr-24-10|| ||keypusher: I have to say, though, 3.Nc3 against the Robatch seems like playing into Black's hands. I would expect you'd see 3.c4 or 3.c3 a lot.|
|Apr-24-10|| ||refutor: if 3.c4, then i reply 3. ...Nf6! and get a KID :)|
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