|Sep-11-03|| ||refutor: question...what is the advantage of avoiding the "old" mainline of 5.Ng3 Bg6 6.h4 h6 7.Nf3 Nd7 by playing moves like 7. ... e6 as seen recently at the Russian championships? i think black is much worse by allowing black to play 8.Ne5 such as in Grischuk-Yevseev Russian Championships 2003 where it continued 7.Nf3 e6 8.Ne5 Bh7 9.Bd3 Bxd3 10.Qxd3. i think that the h-pawn is a much easier target for black on h5 than on h4, but i guess that's just a matter of taste?! inquiring minds want to know :) |
|Sep-12-03|| ||Cyphelium: I think one of the points is that the old main line has been analyzed to, say, move 27 or so. Perhaps 7.- e6 gives black more chances of avoiding preparation. |
|Sep-25-04|| ||azaris: I've seen the rare continuation 5. g5!? played against me. What threw me slightly off was the followup 6. 1f3, upon which 6...h6 can be met with the quixotic 7. xf7+?! xf7 8. e5+ e8 9. h5+?. Of course Black should respond with the rude 9...g6, but if he gets scared it's death from above: 9...e7?? and what follows is a lovely miniature presented here for your enjoyment:|
1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Bf5 5. Ng5 e6 6. N1f3 h6 7. Nxf7 Kxf7
8. Ne5+ Ke8 9. Qh5+ Ke7 10. Qf7+ Kd6 11. Nc4+ Kd5 12. Ne3+ Kxd4 13. Nxf5+
Kd5 14. c4+ Kc5 15. Be3+ Kb4 16. Qxb7+ Ka4 17. Qb3+ Ka5 18. c5 Bxc5 19.
Bxc5 Qd1+ 20. Rxd1 exf5 21. Qb4#
Needless to say, I chose to play 6...h6 rather than risk falling into this kind of mess!
|Sep-25-04|| ||dragon40: Well, the "old" Main Line is a tad analyzed to death and it is still solid, but there is not much for Black to hope for if White stays sensible and does not push too hard for that full point. Allot of the black piece openings lately are geared toward unbalanced play with counter-chances if White plays too strong, and the "old" Mina Line Caro has neither of those two afore-mentioned charactistics.
I have been playing the Caro for over 20 years, its my stalwart against 1. e4 and once in a while I have played 7...Nf6 as is suggested...it is a consensus that allowing White's knight to plop in at E5 for a while does, in actuality, not hurt Black's position and it gives black more chances for the full point.
The h pawn has always been a large point of contention as to whether it is a strength or a weakness for White...I also think on H5 it is a better target than it is on H4...but this is a huge matter of opinion depending on what player(s) you talk to!
I still play the Caro and will continue to use it as my base defense against 1`. e4; I just see it as the best way to keep a draw AND if Wite gets a tad too jumpy, you can try for that full point!
I have faced 5.Nc5!? a few times which can be tricky if you are not at least aware of some of the complications that can come from it, but with a cool head and good sense, the guy playing the black pieces can come out of it ok :) |
|Oct-05-04|| ||refutor: <dragon40> i agree that h5 is a better target, but i dont see why any black player would avoid the position after 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.NC3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Bf5 5.Ng3 Bg6 6.h4 h6 7.h5 Bh7 8.Nf3 Nd7 9.Bd3 Bxd3 10.Qxd3 Qc7. black has little to worry about and White really has to push if he wants more than a half point (in my opinion) |
|Oct-08-04|| ||dragon40: <refutor> I am agreeing with you 100%!!
When I play with the black pieces and want an almost "sure" 1/2 point I will go very much into the Caro Main with full confidence! I think as you say, unless White is going to try burning some big bridges, I can handle anything he throws at me in the line you mentioned! Until proven otherwise, I have nothing to fear! Of course like any other opening, its always good to check, check and double check your moves and move order..you never want to get overconfident. I have played the Classical Caro for over 20 years with the black pieces and I still go over each move and am very mindful of every move and their order as I play! |
|Feb-04-05|| ||dragon40: An open question doe discussion and information of ideas.. Has anyone faced this line in the classical Caro before:
1. e4, c6; 2.d4, d5; 3.Nc3,de4; 4. Ne4,Bf5; 5.Nc5(!?).
I have faced it a few times lately and I used to counter it with 5...b6, but lately have been using the "more theroretical 5..Nd7, which seems as good!
Anyone facing this or has played it with the White pieces want to talk about it a while? I have used the Caro as black for over 20 years and still maintain that as long as I want to keep a draw and maybe more if White is too pushy, there is no better opening! :) |
|Feb-04-05|| ||azaris: <dragon40> dafool-azaris:|
1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Bf5 5.Nc5 b6 6.Nb3 e6 7.Nf3 Nd7 8.Bd3
Bxd3 9.Qxd3 Ngf6 10.O-O Bd6 11.Bg5 h6 12.Bd2 Qc7 13.Rfe1 Kf8? 14.Be3 Re8
15.Nbd2 and White won in 34 moves.
I think 5...b6 is good enough. It supports c5 later on. Of course White has the resource 6. Bd3 so that the knight is not forced to go to the bad square b3 where it will be an idle bystander.
|Feb-04-05|| ||dragon40: <azaris> Good game you played!
I like 5..b6 myself which why I usually play it, and 5...Nd7 is a litle more dynamic and Id rather equalize first then go for more if I am allowed...
6. Bd3 is an important resource, but I doubt that it makes that big of a difference for White, the game is almost equal, and so soon from the opening! |
|Feb-05-05|| ||azaris: <dragon40> Actually I played rather horribly, but it wasn't the fault of the opening but rather the faulty decision of playing Kf1 rather than O-O when the king's rook is sidelined for the rest of the middlegame.|
In fact the position after White's 15th move is already pretty bad for Black as his pieces have no scope, there is no counterplay on the queenside and White can simply double rooks and ferry his knights to the kingside to begin an attack. Which is what happened in the game.
|May-10-05|| ||refutor: why is the maroczy attack (1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 dxe4 4.nxe4 Bf5 5.Ng3 Bg6 6.f4) not played very much? at the very least it will take the caro-kann player out of his comfort zone. any opinions?|
|May-12-05|| ||WorldChampeen: (1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 dxe4 4.nxe4 Bf5 5.Ng3 Bg6 6.f4 leads to the same position if 3. Nc3 is played;|
Marshall vs Capablanca, 1927 , others... I see a key to the development of a situation such as <Refutor> refers to as often hinging on whether there will be an eventual trade of Black's light squared (Queenside) Bishop (initially placed on f5); it looks like f4 produces split results. Karpov always practiced 4. ...Nd2. Seirawan is another huge practitioner of the Caro Kann playing I believe 4. ...Bf5. Nunn vs Seirawan, 1983 ; Here, white's g pawn, h pawn and on move 12 the f pawn all come forward; a real pawn storming and an idea that almost works it seems. Black responds with similar on the Queenside. White's h pawn often goes chasing after the Queen's Bishop which comes out.
|Jun-30-05|| ||black knight c6: Hey, does anyone know what the main line is and how white exploits a tactical and/or development advantage after 5. Bd3 Qxd4?|
|Nov-04-05|| ||Kelvieto: Too many bishop moves in this opening|
|Nov-04-05|| ||aw1988: You can only have too many bishop moves if Black somehow falls behind in development. He doesn't.|
|Nov-04-05|| ||Akavall: <Hey, does anyone know what the main line is and how white exploits a tactical and/or development advantage after 5. Bd3 Qxd4?>|
I don't think 5. Bd3, is a book move. I don't see anything better for white than 6. Nf3, but black queen would just retreat. I think white doesn't have any direct threat here, nor any advantage, IMO.
|Jan-26-06|| ||Gazman5: I'm pretty sure Bd3 is played at various levels by Agressive white players that like to play gambits and take the Caro-Kann player into tactical waters he may be less comfortable with. I'm sure I've read an article on this line somewhere, If I find it I'll post a link or reference.|
|Jan-02-08|| ||Cactus: In Gary Kasparov's good book on the classical Caro-Kann, he seems to think that Bd3 is a sound gambit, but trust me; in practise, it's hard to prove it! I find it hard to capitalise on the developmental advantage, and attack black's solid position. In other words, I'd avoid playing Bd3|
|Jan-02-08|| ||CapablancaFan: <Cactus> I agree. I am a regular practitioner of the Caro-Kann and that continuation I have always found to be useless. After 4...Bf5 if my opponent plays 5.Bd3 I simply exchange right there on the spot, 5...Bxe4 6.Bxe4 Nf6! and white has to spend a tempo either moving the bishop or defending it, while black develops without loss of time.|
|Nov-08-08|| ||Alphastar: The gambit 5. Bd3? Qxd4! is unsound. Black does best to accept it.
Something like 5. ..Bxe4?, like <CapablancaFan> suggests, unnecessarily cedes the bishop pair. After his 6. Bxe4 Nf6 white plays 7. Bf3 when the bishop is well placed to support a d4-d5 advance.|
|Dec-17-08|| ||blacksburg: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/ches...|
|Jul-15-09|| ||Smothered Mate: Good ?|
|Dec-23-11|| ||Penguincw: Opening of the Day
1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.c3 dxe4 4.xe4 f5
click for larger view
I've seen this opening before.
|Jun-11-13|| ||Amarande: As a general rule, Bd3 is played instead of Bc4 ultimately because it's the wisest thing to do. Not immediately because of the loss of the d-pawn, but as a rule:|
* On the nice side, Bc4 can lead to some truly beautiful tactical traps. 5 Ng3 Bg6 6 h4 h6 7 h5 Bh7 8 Nf3 e6 9 Bc4 Nd7 10 Qe2 Ngf6 11 Ne5, and an inattentive Black is now faced with the barrel of 12 Nxf7! This theme happens quite frequently in the Caro-Kann with slightly different move orders. (The "book" form of this trap occurs with the moves h5 and Ngf6 omitted. This form is perhaps slightly easier to avoid, as Black does not now have any move so naturally fatal as ... Ngf6 to fall for in this case, but more lethal if fallen into - as the White Pawn on h5 means the loss of a whole Rook, since the White Knight escapes.)
11 ... Qe7?! here seems to hold everything. In fact, it does parry the threat but White simply continues 12 Bf4, preparing for O-O-O and enjoying a comfortable space advantage. Meanwhile, Black has blocked his ability to castle King's side anytime soon, and there's another trap!
click for larger view
Hands up, how many of you would, if you had to choose a move right away, castle here as Black? Don't lie. :) What danger could there be? White's Queen isn't placed for a Boden's mate, and would require at least one extra move (13 Qf3) to prepare one. Right? *Right??* ...
However, these traps are normally easily taken care of. ELIMINATE THE EXPLOSIVE KNIGHT. Seriously, if you are Black and see that constellation starting to form, the simple and sound thing to do is exchange Nxe5, breaking up the whole racket. Don't exchange it, and you're likely to find it saccing itself in a very much do-not-want fashion. Which brings us to the downside ...
* Black's LSB in this variation is a beautiful thing. It's escaped all the ills this piece is heir to in almost all openings that feature the "Queen's Pawn" type pawn structures. And on top of that, White doesn't even have recourse to Qb3 lines to punish that Bishop for abandoning its duty to that little confessional booth that is guarding b7 that usually is the reason Black all but has to lock it behind the Pawns in most such openings.
On the other hand, White's LSB is not a beautiful thing. It's more like that extra screw you always seem to find at the end when you build one of those "assembly required" furniture pieces and just end up stepping on barefoot in the middle of the night. As Tartakower even went so far as to saying in commenting on Bc4 in M Monticelli vs Fine, 1934 ... "This Bishop has no future." Quite seriously, with the exception of early tactical zaps like just noted, which are rather easily parried (and for which the pattern is pretty much always that same one of Qe2/Bc4/Ne5/h4, so are easy to see as well), there's not much White can do with this Bishop but trade it for Black's or have it just get in his way - Black just controls the light squares too well, and his pawns on those squares are simply too solid for White to have any offensive prospects on that colour.
And so the really logical thing to do is indeed eventually play Bd3 and trade off Black's Bishop. Moreover, the window of opportunity for this is limited; for instance, if Black plays 11 ... Nxe5! in the above variation rather than 11 ... Qe7?!, after 12 Nxe5 Nd7, White already cannot easily exchange the Bishops - if 13 Bd3? Bxd3 and White is forced to leave himself with a feeble and indissoluble backward pawn on the d-file, since 14 Qxd3 would lose the e-pawn. Indeed, at this point, the position is almost identical to the Monticelli-Fine game, except that Black's Bishop is still at g6 and the h-pawns have not moved, and is thus likely to develop upon very similar lines, which is not a good thing for White.