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Sep-02-05
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| Gazman5: <refutor> in a response to me on June 16, you hinted at your preference for the Qc7 line, which is reached via transposition, albeit after 2 extra moves each, in azaris' line. What would you play in response to his 15.Ne5 line? I'm not sure that i would make the captures that he suggests for black in that position. |
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| Sep-02-05 |
| azaris: <refutor> What about 13. Ne4 Ngf6 14. Nd6+ Ke7 15. Nxb7 Bxd2+ 16. Nxd2 Qb4 17. Qb3 Qxd4 18. O-O-O? I Morovic vs Karpov, 2002 was drawn shortly after 18...Rhb8!?, but White can also play on with 19. Qa3+ c5 20. Na5 Rc8 21. Ndc4 Qxf2 22. Rhf1 Qxg2 23. Rg1 Qf2 24. Rxg7 Rg8 (24...Nxh5 25. Rgg1  ) 25. Nc6+ Kf8 26. Rxg8+ Kxg8 27. Qd3  . Note that 18...Qxf2 can be met with 19. Qa3+ c5 (19...Ke8?? 20. Nd6+ Kd8 21. Rhf1 Qxg2 22. Nxf7+ Kc7 23. Nxh8 Rxh8 24. Qxa7+ and wins) 20. Nf3 Rhc8 21. Rhf1 Qg3 22. Nd6 Qf4+ 23. Kb1 Rd8 24. Rd4!? (since 24...cxd4?? 25. Nf5+ Ke8 26. Nxg7#), but I can't find a convincing continuation here after 24...Qg3. |
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Sep-02-05
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| refutor: <gazman5> i'm at work, but i don't think i could capture either. at a quick glance castling seems better, but i'm at work, i'll give it a more thorough look when i get home. |
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| Oct-13-05 |
| Averageguy: Isn't Nd5 good after Bf4 ? I played at a tournament a few weekends ago and ran into that move. I dropped my bish back to d2 in order to get a tempo later with c4.
I think that for black movng a piece to b4 loses a pawn to Qb3. |
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Jan-26-06
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| Gazman5: I like to use Nd5 as an occasional weapon in club games, because it catches a booked up white player unprepared. The main advantages of it are that it is possible for white to overlook some tactical shots that black has at his disposal. In some lines White's Queen can also get decentralised, while in other lines the Nd5 line allows black to get his Qside pawns rolling against the white King. |
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| Jan-26-06 |
| EricCartman: The Caro-Kann is an endgame, not an opening. 52% of all the Caro-Kann games are drawn, that percentage is almost as high as the Petroff Defense. |
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| Feb-17-06 |
| Averageguy: <Gazman5><I like to use Nd5 as an occasional weapon in club games, because it catches a booked up white player unprepared.> What should one as white do against it? Also, out of interest, where in London are you based? Just that I used to live there. |
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| Mar-27-06 |
| Karpyan: I'm just taking up the game again after a 10 year break, and have forgotten pretty much everything. Can someone enlighten me as to why white plays h4-h5, only to exchange bishops shortly after, rather than to play, say Bc4? I assume that the h4-h5 push it is to discourage black from castling kingside and generally just to gain space, but it seems that the h5 pawn can become a weakness in the endgame. |
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Mar-27-06
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| karnak64: <EricCartman>: what you say is true at the professional level, but at the club and amateur tournament level, I've found the opening to be far more decisive (one way or the other).
<Karpyan>: I've played enough games with this now to see the havoc black wreaks when on the h7-b8 diagonal if white fails to trade it off.
BTW, welcome back to the game. I had a long break, too, and it's been nothing but a pleasure returning to the game. I hope you have the same experience. |
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| Apr-01-06 |
| Karpyan: <karnak64> thanks for your words - I really regret giving up for 12 years, but TBH I don't think my level has changed that much. On the other hand opening theory.... |
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| Feb-20-07 |
| WTHarvey: Here is a little collection of winning combinations in B19 Caro-Kann miniatures: http://www.wtharvey.com/b19.html |
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Jul-05-07
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| Where is my mind: Is there a difference between 15.Qe2 and 15.Qd3 in this line of the Carro-Kann? I normally play 15.Qe2 like in Bologan vs Dreev, 2006 but noticed Kramnik and Anand play 15.Qd3 Kramnik vs Bareev, 2003 and Anand vs Ponomariov, 2006
I was wondering if it made any difference.The Kramnik and Anand games turned out the same as the Bologan line after 17 moves.So I am interested to know if they were avoiding any particular moves by playing 15.Qd3. |
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| Jul-05-07 |
| nescio: <Where is my mind> You mean you had this long variation more than once? Amazing. I looked at the position after 14...Nf6 and perhaps Anand and Kramnik didn't like the line 15.Qe2 Qa5 16.Kb1 Nxh5. After 15.Qd3 Qa5 16.Kb1 Nxh5 would be suicide because of 17.Bd2 Qd5 18.c4 but with the queen on e2 it might be possible as after c4 Black has a check on f5. |
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Jul-05-07
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| Where is my mind: <nescio>Yes but not too many times, unfortunately I occasionally mess it up.But I got the chance to play it recently and wanted to refresh.
15.Qe2 Qa5 16.Kb1 Nxh5.Yes someone played this line against me in a blitz game at playchess!I lost that game,so I'll learn to play 15.Qd3 to avoid it.Thanks for the advice<nescio>. |
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| Aug-01-07 |
| xKinGKooLx: I play this opening a lot as Black because it is positional and requires little tactical knowledge early in the game. It is perfect when you are either playing for a draw and/or a good endgame pawn structure. |
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| May-16-08 |
| Alphastar: This is the old classical mainline. I've played the carokann for a couple of months now. First I tried 4. ..Bf5, then 4. ..Nd7 and lately I've been experimenting with 4. ..Nf6 5. Nxf6+ gxf6 (bronstein-larsen). The frustrating thing about the 4. ..Bf5 line is that there is almost no possibility to play for a win as black, whether you castle long or short. Theory has been worked out that much. So I switched to the 4. ..Nd7 system. This can lead to sharp play, but only i f white is in the mood. What I've found is that nearly all club level players know no theory of it at all, so most of the time you won't get the sharp play you want. |
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May-16-08
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| whiskeyrebel: Actually, I've had great results with 4...Bf5 against players mostly in the 1800-2200 range. My success is due usually to the over aggressiveness of my opponents. I have thought about adding the Bronstein-Larsen line to my bag of tricks to play in last round, must win situations..particularly against the lower half of the rating span I mentioned. Have you had good results with it? One thing is for sure, I'll never go back to the modern. It's fun to have a solid position! |
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May-16-08
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| keypusher: <Karpyan: I'm just taking up the game again after a 10 year break, and have forgotten pretty much everything. Can someone enlighten me as to why white plays h4-h5, only to exchange bishops shortly after, rather than to play, say Bc4? I assume that the h4-h5 push it is to discourage black from castling kingside and generally just to gain space, but it seems that the h5 pawn can become a weakness in the endgame.> I think that's a good question. The books say that the greater cramping effect of pushing the pawn to h5 outweighs the slight weakness. Back when h4-h5 came into vogue, though, Black usually castled queenside. Later on Black started playing 0-0, and it seems to me that Black was taking advantage of the fact that the pawn on h5 could no longer support a g4-g5 pawn push. Spassky vs Karpov, 1974
So maybe h4-h5 should be reconsidered?
Also, there are lines in which White plays Bc4 -- you can see examples in the Tal-Botvinnik matches. But in general the White bishop "bites on granite" (the pawn on e6) while the Black bishop is very comfortable on the h7-b1 diagonal. |
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May-16-08
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| karnak64: <alphastar>: funny thing, but I've swung the other way. I used to play 4 ... Nd7 exclusively, but lately I switched over to Bf5. Different strokes, I guess. |
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| Jun-04-08 |
| Alphastar: < whiskeyrebel: Actually, I've had great results with 4...Bf5 against players mostly in the 1800-2200 range. My success is due usually to the over aggressiveness of my opponents. I have thought about adding the Bronstein-Larsen line to my bag of tricks to play in last round, must win situations..particularly against the lower half of the rating span I mentioned. Have you had good results with it?> I have yet to play it against decent opposition. Against lower-rated opposition it does the trick usually. Low-rated players don't really know how to deal with the kind of positions that crop up. |
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| Jun-04-08 |
| aktajha: I think that against lower rated players you'd better play something less drawish then caro-kann. The problem with classical is, that if white chooses to play it safely, a draw is quickly reached. If you choose for 1. ... c5 or 1. ... e5 I think you can more easily outplay them, since often more pieces stay on the board. I'm playing French most of the times, but against lower rated opposition I'm a little 'afraid' of the exchange and such things, and I can imagine the same happens with the classical caro-kann (drawish positions) |
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Jun-10-08
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| keypusher: <The books say that the greater cramping effect of pushing the pawn to h5 outweighs the slight weakness. Back when h4-h5 came into vogue, though, Black usually castled queenside. Later on Black started playing 0-0, and it seems to me that Black was taking advantage of the fact that the pawn on h5 could no longer support a g4-g5 pawn push.
Spassky vs Karpov, 1974
So maybe h4-h5 should be reconsidered? >
I put my suggestion into practice in this game from Round 3 of the National Open:
1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Bf5 5. Ng3 Bg6 6. h4 h6 7. Nf3 Nd7 8. Bd3 Bxd3 9. Qxd3 e6 10. Bd2 Ngf6 11. 0-0-0 Be7 12. Kb1 0-0 13. Ne4 (clearing the path for the g-pawn) 13....Nxe4 14. Qxe4 Nf6 15. Qe2 Qd5 16. Rhe1 (I didn't want to play this, of course, but I didn't want to allow ...Qe4 either) 16....a5 17. Ne5 Bb4 (seems like a loss of time; my opponent was starting to worry and decided to try to simplify his way out of trouble) 18. g4 Bxd2 19. Qxd2 Nd7 20. Qe2 (20. g5 h5 21. g6 was my original intention, but now I decided White wouldn't accomplish anything after 21....Nxe5 22. Rxe5 Qf3; of course I wouldn't have had to worry about 20....h5 if I had pushed my own pawn there!) 20....Nxe5 21. dxe5 Qc5 22. g5
click for larger view
Now White can open a line to the Black king, but Black is far from lost.
22....hxg5 23. hxg5 24. Rh1 (instead of 24. Rxd8+ Rxd8 25. Qh5, when I thought the king could just run away. But f2-f4 might have been better.).
24....Rxd1+ 25. Qxd1
Now Black can't take either pawn, and the king can't run because the rook at a8 will hang. But.... 25....g6!
Taking away the h5 square and threatening ...Qxe5 in earnest. 26. f4 Qf8?
Perhaps he relaxed too soon. Now White can take over the d-file. 27. Qd2 b5 (...Rd8 hangs the a-pawn, of course.) 28. Rd1 c5 29. Qd7 b4 30. b3 c4 (this seems overambitious; because of White's grip on the d-file Black is in essence attacking with his pawns only) 31. bxc4 a4 32. Rd6 Qb8 33. Qb5 Qa7 34. Qb6 a3 35. c5 Qxb6 (clearly the ending is hopeless for Black) 36. cxb6 Rb8 37. Kc1 Kf8 38. Kd2 Ke7 39. Kd3 Rc8 40. b7 Rb8 41. Rb6 Kd7 42. Rxb4 Kc6 43. c4 1-0. Boring, you say? I never find my own wins boring. :-) |
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Jun-10-08
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| ganstaman: I didn't find it boring either. I used to think that the Caro-Kann would be boring, but then playing against it a few times I saw that it can actually be exciting if used properly. I'll in fact post a game I just played in the 3. f3 variation on the proper page. By the way, it seems that you left out the move 23...Rfd8. Also, out of curiosity, what was the rating of your opponent? |
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Jun-11-08
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| keypusher: <ganstaman> Oops, you're right. He was 1875. I am 1811, though that doesn't mean much because it is based mostly on games played 20 years ago. |
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| Jun-14-08 |
| Alphastar: <keypusher> I think black does best to castle long if white plays h4 but not h5. After 'normal' development black will then play ..h5 himself at some point which fixes the h4-pawn on the same color as the white bishop. white also won't be so much in the ascendancy on the kingside. |
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