< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 4 ·
|Jul-27-04|| ||Marquis De Sade: How many hours a day does some lifeless schmuck have to put in to be able to play this line with authority? That's the only pertinent question. |
|Jul-27-04|| ||Dudley: I think you could learn this line in minimal time <De Sade>,its much easier for white then for black. If black doesn't come up with some fancy stuff on the Q side, he will be drawn and quartered on the K side in short order. This line almost exterminated the Dragon, look at the win %. Check out Fischer's comments in 60 Memorable games (see Cornwallis above). |
|Jul-27-04|| ||Dudley: Or did you want to play it as black? |
|Jul-27-04|| ||Marquis De Sade: I'm talkin black <dudley>. I'm thinking that you'd have to do some serious homework |
|Jul-27-04|| ||Dudley: Ok, then just reverse what I said, I think you are right. That's why I play the accelerated dragon instead, which tactically avoids this line, although that takes some learning too. |
|Jul-27-04|| ||OneArmedScissor: Can anyone answer my question?
Is it better to begin the pawn push on the kingside with the g or h pawn??
|Jul-28-04|| ||dafish298: <OneArmedScissor>, now current theory states to push your g pawn to g4 first to help stop h5...years ago h4 was played first but ...h5 stops that so it is decisive to play g4 first |
|Jul-28-04|| ||BiLL RobeRTiE: <dafish298> What the hell? You have no idea what you're talking about, and I don't mean this insultingly. I just don't see the point of posting an answer to a question about a topic which you are not very familiar with. ;)
<OAS> it really depends, there's a huge labyrinth of theory. White does want to get away with playing h4 first (because it saves him a move), but sometimes g4 is necessary to stop ...h5 and support the h4-h5 advance.
That being said, according to modern theory I THINK it is USUALLY but NOT ALWAYS better to play h4 first, because ...h5 is often not a good response to it.
If you want to know more, I'm sure SicilianDragon et al. would be willing to elaborate. |
|Aug-02-04|| ||d4Nf6Bg5: <refutor> d6 in the dragon serves the useful purpose of preventing e5. If you opponent goes for Nc6, you can play 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd 4.Nxd Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Nxc6 bxc6 7.e5, possiblity shuting out the bishop. I don't know how good this line is, but it's something that normally isn't possible in the dragon |
|Aug-02-04|| ||refutor: <d4Nf6Bg5>of course that loses to 7. ...Qa5+ |
|Aug-02-04|| ||sneaky pete: <refutor> Do you mean 7... Qa5 (no + because of the Knight on c3) 8.exf6 ..? |
|Aug-03-04|| ||refutor: sorry i missed the nc3, nf6 i thought you were talking about the "normal" accelerated with 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 g6 then 5.Nxc6 bxc6 6.e5 is trouble. i'm sure your line above is okay, but no one plays that move order, the either play ...d6 before ...Nc6 or play ...Nc6 with ...g6 and no ...Nf6...sorry u'll have to read your comments a little more carefully :) |
|Aug-18-04|| ||Miss Ter: <dafish98>
Against g4 how about playing h5 anyways? Than you trade pawns on h5 and sometimes transpose right back into the h5 line.
|Aug-18-04|| ||Miss Ter: I meant h4 line. |
|Sep-15-04|| ||athyn: Identical twins with an interesting difference:
Miles vs Veerman Johan, 1986
Miles vs J Veerman, 1986
|Sep-28-04|| ||SicilianDragon: Wow, I had no idea how much I missed my being away from Chessgames.com. Anyway, to answer a few questions:|
(1) The refutation to the ...Qa5, Rfc8 system vs. 9. Bc4 is basically 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. O-O-O Qa5 11. Bb3 Rfc8 12. g4 Ne5 13. h4 b5 (13...Nc4 is too slow. 14. Bxc4 Rxc4 15. Nb3 Qa6 or ♕c7 16. e5! with a clear edge to white because of 16...dxe5? 17. g5! and the bishop falls) 14. h5 Nc4 15. Bxc4 bxc4 16. Bh6 Bh8 17. Nf5 Re8 18. Qg5 Qb6 19. hxg6 fxg6 20. Bg7! with a winning attack in Nunn-Ward, 1997.
(2) Against the "old line" with ...Rc8, the most important line now is supposed to be 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. O-O-O Rc8 11. Bb3 Ne5 12. Kb1 Nc4 (12...h5 and white can take advantage of delaying h4 by playing h3 when a later g4 thrust will no longer be a sacrifice) 13. Bxc4 Rxc4 14. g4! Qa5 (14...b5?! 15. b3! Rc8 15...♖c5? 16. ♘e6! wins 16. Ndxb5) 15. g5 Nh5 16. Nd5 Qd8 (16...Qxd2? drops a pawn to 17. Nxe7+) 17. Ne2 and black has no attack while 18. Ng3 gives white an edge as both the threatened 19. Nxh5 and 18...Nxg3 19. hxg3 give white great attacking chances. While I still feel white should hold an edge in the Soltis Line (12. h4 h5), that gives black the option of playing the solid 12...Nc4 which gives black equal chances.
(3) OneArmerdScissor, (love that handle), it depends on the opening variation. In the 9. Bc4 lines, I think that white should generally play g4 first (with the exception of a few sidelines where it is not really feasible for black to play ...h5 or ...Nxh5). In the 9. O-O-O Nxd4 lines, h4 first is best because after 10. Bxd4 Be6 11. Kb1 Qc7 (11...Qa5? 12. Nd5! with a clear advantage to white) 12. h4 Rfc8 13. h5! since 13...Nxh5?? 14. Bxg7 Kxg7 15. g4 Nf6 16. Qh6+ Kg8 17. e5! dxe5 18. g5 Nh5 19. Rxh5! gxh5 20. Bd3! is basically a forced mate. In the 9. O-O-O d5 lines, white usually plays h4 first, if at all.
(4) Refutor, there are indeed people that play d4Nf6Bg5's line with Nc6, g6, and Nf6 in that move order because most people don't know what to do against it (though admittedly it is not sound).
Whew!! Hopefully that answered a lot of questions (though I'd love to answer more). I apologize in advance for any typos (there are bound to be some).
|Sep-28-04|| ||dafish298: <bill robertie> oh ok..i have no idea what im talking about..ive been playing the dragon for awhile now and am a 2000 expert..whatever. that is good analysis sicilian dragon..i would have acouple questions for you if you would know them
First off, i personally enjoy playing the ..Qa5 Rfc8 line with b5! too..although ive been looking at b5 as more of a move to threaten ..b4 rather than Nc4..forcing Nc-e2 then Nc4 and doubling rooks on the c file followed by ..Be6 and ..e5 etc..
what do you think about that?
also the main question i had was..what is blacks response to if white never moves their light squared bishop out...just starts the kingside pawn storm of g4 and h4 ignoring the bishop? i think it would be the crazy ..d5 pawn sac line but im not entirely sure.
|Sep-28-04|| ||SicilianDragon: Do you mean 9. O-O-O instead, or 9. g4? (9. h4 is well met by 9...d5!). Since you mentioned d5 pawn sac, I presume you mean 9. O-O-O d5!?. I prefer 9...Nxd4 10. Bxd4 Be6 myself, but 9...d5!? is equally playable and many regard it as better. Personally, the positions after 9...d5!? are just not to my taste and so I prefer 9...Nxd4. A sample line goes 10. Bxd4 Be6 11. Kb1! Qc7 (11...Qa5? 12. Nd5 ) 12. h4 Rfc8 13. h5 Qa5 14. hxg6 hxg6 with equal chances. If you mean 9. g4, h4 etc. w/o castling, then 9. g4 Be6 10. h4 d5 (even ...Nxd4 on move 9 or 10 is playable) is at least equal.|
I have looked into 14...b4 before and while it certainly looks good on the surface, I've found that it's not all it seems to be. The main line that I've looked at is 15. Nce2 Nc4 16. Bxc4 Rxc4 17. Kb1 followed by Bh6 seems strong for white. A similar recipe was used by Sergei Kudrin (himself a Dragon player) as white vs. William Aramil at the 2002 Chicago Open The game continued 17...Rac8 18. hxg6 fxg6 19. Nf4 Rxd4 20. Bxd4 e5 21. g5 Ne8 22. Qh2 exf4 23. Qxh7+ Kf7 24. Bxg7 Nxg7 25. Rxd6 Be6 26. Rxe6 1-0 It seems that black's attack is not quick enough to contend with white's in the 14...b4 lines. Certainly 19...Rxd4 was tactically incorrect, but I'm sure if you plug this into Fritz you will not find too much else for black.
|Sep-28-04|| ||Minor Piece Activity: Hey Dragon, what do you think of these two games? J Gallagher vs S Williams, 2001
Deep Fritz vs Germany, 2001
Some pretty interesting ideas in both games. Could black have held the endgame in the first one?
|Dec-21-04|| ||Backward Development: I think SicilianDragon should have gotten the Caissar for most useful/helpful kibitzer here. I mean, just look at all of the work he's done on the dragon pages! Excellent analysis and recommendations. I only hope others will follow your example with other openings. |
|Jan-22-05|| ||SicilianDragon: Thank you for your kind words. However, I wouldn't call it work as I so much enjoy doing this analysis. |
@Minor Piece Activity: I'm sorry I have not been on in a while. I have been extremely busy with both College applications (University of Pennslyvania here I come!!) and then various scholarship apps as well and have not been able to look at the games you posted. The computer I am working on evidently doesn't like Java plug-ins so I have not been able to view the games. However, I hope to remedy that problem shortly and will be glad to examine those games for you.
Anyone who has specific questions or a game they want me to look at can feel free to IM me at MarxIsGod21 on AIM or can e-mail me at firstname.lastname@example.org. However, if you send me a game, copy and paste the PGN as text in the message, DO NOT SEND FILE ATTACHMENTS. I will try to get to everything as quickly as I can.
|Feb-06-05|| ||russep: Man this opening is sharp. I am playing a game and getting beaten. It's like i was sleeping when i should be attacking. |
|Aug-28-05|| ||gooooooooodtimes: look at the 9 castles bd7 line reccomended by ward|
|Dec-04-05|| ||notyetagm: Could someone please post some background on the <Chinese dragon>, the Yugoslav attack with 9 ♗c4 ♗d7 10 0-0-0 ♖b8!?. IM Martin's new book on the Dragon systems is very high on it. Thanks.|
|Dec-29-05|| ||foolishmovesss: Here is a Yugo game I played on ICC I was white. THe position where black resigns, fritz has me winning by 5.87 pawns, even though material is even and there are no emidiate threats. My copy and paste isnt working so I am entering it by hand hopefuly its all correct.|
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