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| Feb-22-09 | | FiveofSwords: <wannabe> even if white did, however, make the ridiculous move qxf6, then no, black still has not equalized. His mobility still suffers from the d6 pawn. But its a huge amount easier for black than if white simply moves his queen. |
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| Feb-25-09 | | FiveofSwords: chigorin's lines are mostly acceptable and that is the most typical stuff. Just something i cant help but metion about the mieses line...The 'common ending that comes up via different move orders' actually wont occur, probably, if white knows the scotch pretty well. there is a different ending, however, with an exchange for 2 pawns material imbalance which is rather unclear and also quite hard for white to avoid. there is no doubt in my mind that 9...g5 is black's best move in that position and its rare for me to think I know what the best move is in an opening even if im very familiar with it....other moves might be playable, but are very hard for black....9..g5 is still rpetty hard for black if he doesnt know what he's doing. 9...Qh5 actually completely loses by force, but the line is messy and if white doesnt know it he could possibly lose. Even a very strong computer will take at least a couple days to figure out that 9...Qh5 loses, and find the correct refutation for white. |
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| Feb-25-09 | | Chigorin: <FiveofSwords>
"chigorin's lines are mostly acceptable"
I admit, it's a pretty superficial summary. I guess you get what you pay for :) "The 'common ending that comes up via different move orders' actually wont occur, probably, if white knows the scotch pretty well." Why is this? You think this line is bad for White?
"there is no doubt in my mind that 9...g5 is black's best move in that position" Out of curiosity, what do you think Black should play against 10.h4 ?
I personally think 9...0-0-0 with the idea of 10.g3 g5 is best, but to each his own. |
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| Feb-28-09 | | WhiteRook48: we're drinking, right? |
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| Mar-01-09 | | FiveofSwords: well h4 isnt a good plan for white, i dont think, against 9...g5. In fact its probably going to backfire tremendously. The danger for white in this opening is that hes already made quite a lot of pawn moves, and his development is seriously lagging. He tries to keep his superior pawn structure while also avoiding a potentially fatal opening of the position, and work very quickly on his development after the basic stage has been set around move 9. In fact, white's best idea is to sacrifice a pawn in most of the lines where black threatens to open the position. This was kasparov's idea in his match with karpov which rejuvinated the whole line. I dont know what black's best is after h4, but im not beleiving that black cant get a serious advantage, either. h4 would simply be a bad misunderstanding of white about the position, and the potential dangers white may be in. Probably the pawn on g5 need not be defended, black jsut blasts the position open and smashes white. something like that. |
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| Mar-01-09 | | Chigorin: If 10.h4 is such a mindless move it should not be difficult to recommend a response for Black. |
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Mar-01-09
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| Mar-01-09 | | Chigorin: I still don't understand why anyone would see it as a terrible move in the first place. It makes some sense. |
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| Mar-02-09 | | FiveofSwords: Its just that black has a lot of dangerous development which almost kills white at this stage of the opening so white should feel urgently like he needs to catch up. After 10 h4 one natural plan for black would be to ignore it and play Bg7. Now if white plays Bxg5 then Qxe5 and your rook on a1 is problem. Black is winning i think. Same story on move of white's moves. So white would have to deal with that threat, with Bb2 I suppose. But that removes white's control of f4 rather prematurely (before black has been forced to play Nb6) and this is usually bad for him. Black would continue Nf4, and this position looks no fun for white to play since his king feels exposed and black's pieces are starting to swarm around. Maybe a computer can play this way but not me. |
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| Mar-02-09 | | Chigorin: In Starting Out: The Scotch Game John Emms says of 10.h4: "...I certainly can't find an easy path to equality for Black." The example game given is Smeets-Timman 2002. It doesn't appear to be in the CG database unfortunately. The next few moves in the game were: 10.h4  g7 11.b2  f4 12. e3 h6 13.d2 g6 14.f3 gxh4 (if 14...g4 then 15.h5) Emms' seems to think Black should play 11...0-0-0 12.d2  de8 (12...b4 13.0-0-0) which he thinks might equalize. Still, I don't think this is all so one-dimensionally bad for White as you make it sound. |
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| Mar-04-09 | | FiveofSwords: well maybe so, I didnt know emms considered this move...sounds interesting and ill look at it. But im sure its a very new idea and the reason it took a long time for white to consider it would be for the reasons I stated.It might be playable but it would need to have the right idea behind it, and I dont understand the point of h4 if you arent trying to win the g pawn. So maybe its ok but i wouldnt try it until I understand the actual plan behind it. But you see, this is a testament to how impossible it is to exhaust all the interesting ideas in a position, because this is a position ive studied a huge amount and never considered any sort of plan involving the move h4. |
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| Mar-05-09 | | FiveofSwords: concerning the endgame you speak of, Im sure its fine for black, and if white players use the scotch as their main weapon (such as rublevsky) and they actually want to win some games they probably have found various ideas to avoid this. Morozevich, for example, showed an interesting plan, and also people have been playing 10 f4 followed by Qf2 (this is the major point of 9...g5, preventing f4), and im sure there are other possibilities as well. That particular endgame just isnt very promising for white at higher levels or against extremely prepared opponents so you can expect white to avoid it. |
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| Apr-03-09 | | Dredge Rivers: They should name an opening after Jack Daniels!
Or maybe Boone's Farm! :) |
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| Sep-07-09 | | gungorh: Can anyone give me some advise about the below variation.
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4
I used to play that opening but then I turned to d4 but as I remember Bc4 has lots of attack variations... |
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| Sep-07-09 | | nescio: <gungorh> It's not clear to me what you are asking. It seems to me that 4.Bc4 is predominantly a transpositional device as the most logical replies lead to well-known positions of other openings, e.g.: 4...Bc5 5.c3 dxc3 6.Nxc3 (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.c3 dxc3 5.Nxc3 Bc5 6.Bc4) 4...Bc5 5.c3 Nf6 6.cxd4 Bb4+ (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4) 4...Nf6 (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d4 exd4)
Especially the last variation can lead to quite complicated positions which I have never looked at properly. There was a time that I was lured in such messes so often that I stopped playing 1...e5 altogether. That leaves 4...Bb4+ 5.c3 dxc3 6.0-0, but somehow it doesn't look good for Black. |
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| Oct-25-09 | | timhortons: Opening Explorer theres only 2 choices move on it and the game is an old game http://www.chessgames.com/perl/ches... 9th move of scotch. sequence on how position was reached with link above 
click for larger view9th.Nc3 is the best option of rybka and has been played more time at gameknot.com database. chessgames.com database offer 9.Nb5 and 9.f3...
sometimes you cant say that following the database line of cg is really good, since some of the lines included in the game was used pre rybka time. |
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| Dec-31-09 | | Stoned Knight: with all the great russian players there have been, I am surprised that there exists a scotch game but not a vodka one. |
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| Dec-31-09 | | Where is my mind: <gungorh> <nescio>
After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4
I don't like playing the complicated positions of the 4...Nf6 variation at all.
4...Nf6 (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d4 exd4)
I try to avoid them by playing 4...Bc5 and transposing into an Italian,but after 5.0-0 Nf6 6.e5 its a complex Two Knights again. |
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| Jan-05-10 | | nescio: <Where is my mind: I try to avoid them by playing 4...Bc5 and transposing into an Italian,but after 5.0-0 Nf6 6.e5 its a complex Two Knights again.> I suppose so, but is there something wrong with continuing to avoid it by 5.0-0 d6 6.c3 Bg4 (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/ches...)? Some very respectable players there, but the setup may be refuted. |
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| Jan-06-10 | | Where is my mind: <1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 Bc5 5.0-0 d6 6.c3 Bg4>
Thats much better than what I usually play.I will play over those games.Thanks very much <Nescio>. |
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| Mar-28-10 | | deputy1: Any one know about the Scotch game :Potter variation ?
1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 d4 exd4 5 Nxd4 Bc5
5 Nb3 Bb6 I am playing black in e mail game. |
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| Feb-16-12 | | Penguincw: Opening of the Day
Scotch Game w/ 4...Qh4
1.e4 e5 2.f3 c6 3.d4 exd4 4.xd4 h4
click for larger view |
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| Feb-16-12 | | RookFile: That's good for a few laughs, but if white is willing to gambit the pawn black gets a miserable game. |
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| Jul-11-12 | | e4 resigns: <That's good for a few laughs, but if white is willing to gambit the pawn black gets a miserable game.>
Steinitz was the first to come up with the idea.
It's a respectable move. |
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| Jul-11-12 | | e4 resigns: I should say, first to popularize the move.
It was introduced before. |
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