< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 7 OF 8 ·
|Aug-25-07|| ||CapablancaFan: The Scotch gave even Capa problems. Capablanca vs J Corzo, 1901|
|Sep-10-07|| ||miguel12: Anyone know the eval for this line in the Scotch?
1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 d4 exd4 4 Nxd4 Bc5 5 Be3 Qf6 6 Nb5
Any help is appreciated thanks!
|Sep-10-07|| ||WannaBe: Black should play Bxe3, in fact, that is the only move played, according to CG.com's database.|
White's won 55.2% draw 13.8% lost 31% in 29 games that's in the database.
|Sep-10-07|| ||miguel12: I am looking for the theory in the line...so after 6...Bxe3 7 fxe3 then what is the continuation? White scores well in this line, but I am assuming because it is lower rated players playing this unusual line (which means it might work well for me).|
|Oct-16-07|| ||qskakaley: I was wondering if there are any good books on the Scotch other than the one published by Batsford. I'm looking for books that have contemporary theory, not something from 10-15 years ago, especially regarding the Mieses Variation, as I hear Batsford's book does not cover much theory regarding this line.|
Also, in the line 4...Qh4, after 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Be2 Qxe4 7.Nbd5 Bxc3+, why does White not reply 8.Nxc3? Obviously, I must be missing something here...But doesn't this keep White's pawn structure intact? Obviously, it eliminates White's threat of Nxc7, when Black will lose a rook, but is White's queenside pawn structure less important than eliminating Black's right to castle?
|Oct-16-07|| ||qskakaley: Okay, and please be kind b/c I'm pretty new, but HOW do I take advantage of 'better development' than my opponent. Iniative? I see the advantage. Material advantage? Duh. Even pawn structure I feel better about in terms of knowledge. I know that the one who has better development should do certain things like open up the game if possible, but how else is this an advantage? What do I DO with that advantage?|
|Oct-18-07|| ||Chigorin: <qskakaley> Regarding the development question: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/ches...|
As far as books on the Scotch, Wells' book is great, but as you said quite dated. Emms' book from 2005 is up-to-date, but does not focus as much on theory as I would like. I also dislike the way the material is organized: it's a bit confusing. On the whole though, probably worth having if you want to play the Scotch and don't have a Scotch book yet.
|Oct-18-07|| ||Chigorin: Also, regarding your question about 4...h4 5.c3 b4 6.e2 xe4 7.b5 xc3+ 8.xc3: White is down a pawn. If he just sits there and plays nice Black will be better. This is not a line where White worries about weak pawns, he is out for blood! So the open lines are probably more important than the structural weaknesses anyway. Throw in that 8.bxc3 takes away Black's castling rights and it is clearly the better move.|
|Oct-18-07|| ||Chigorin: <refutor> Here's my best attempt to summarize the main lines (Disclaimer: I don't keep up with cutting edge theory, so take this with a grain of salt):|
1.e4 e5 2.f3 c3 3.d4 exd4 4.xd4 c5:
A.)5.xc6 f6 6.d2
A1.)6...bxc6 (6...xc6!?) 7.d3 (7.c3 d6 8.a4 b6 9.d3 e7 10.0-0 0-0 11.xb6) e7 8.c3 d6 9.0-0 b6
A2.)6...dxc6 7.c3 and now Black can try 7...d4, 7...e7 8.f4, or 7...e6 8.a4 d8 (8...d6) 9.d3 d4 10.0-0 (10.c3!? is also important)
B.)5.e3 A typical line is 5...f6 6.c3 e7 7.c4 (7.g3 is also important) e5 8.e2 g6 9.0-0 d6 10.f3 (10.h1!? e.g. xe4 11.d2 g6 12.b5 0-0 13.xc7 b8) 10...0-0 11.d2 d5 (continued...)
|Oct-18-07|| ||Chigorin: (...continued) As for 4...f6, 5.c3 is a Scotch Four Knights, so if White is trying for advantage he will play 5.xc6 bxc6 6.e5 e7 7.e2 d5 8.c4 and now both 8...b6 and 8...a6 are important. The former can be met by 9.c3 e6 10.e4 b4 11.d2 a6 12.b3 xc3 13.xc3 d5 14.h4 which I really wouldn't want to play with Black. 8...a6 is definitely the most complicated part of the Scotch. After 9.b3 Black can try 9...g6, 9...g5!?, 9...0-0-0, or even 9...h4?! There is a common ending that comes up via many different move orders, e.g. 9.b3 g6 10.g3 g7 11.b2 0-0 12.g2 ae8 13.0-0 xe5 14.xe5 xe5 15.xe5 xe5 17.cxd5 xf1 18.xf1 cxd5 when White may or may not be a tiny bit better, but I imagine someone who really understands these sorts of positions could score well with either color.|
4...b4+!? looks bad superficially: Black appears to simply lose a tempo. And after 5.c3 c5 6.e3 f6? that would be true, but after 6...b6 it is quite possible that White's c3 pawn is actually a disadvantage since he can no longer bring his knight to c3. 7.g4! is probably the most critical move, but this variation is not as bad as it looks for Black.
4...h4?! e.g. 5.c3 b4 6.e2 xe4 7.db5 xc3+ 8.bxc3 d8 9.0-0
Hope this helps!
|Oct-18-07|| ||qskakaley: Thanks Chigorin! That is DEFINITELY a lot of info to digest, and a super-help to me! I better start studying! :)|
|Jan-09-08|| ||WannaBe: A Study in Scotch...
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 Nxd4 4. Nxd4 exd4 5. Qxd4 d6 6. Bc4 Qf6 7. Qd3
click for larger view
White have zero game in the database where 7. Qxf6 is played, is this because 7...Nxf6 equalizes?
Both side would have minor piece developed, and a pawn out, by retreating the queen, is that really better than taking?
|Feb-06-08|| ||evenua: <Wannabe: Both side would have minor piece developed, and a pawn out, by retreating the queen, is that really better than taking?>|
Maybe you want to search games here: http://www.chesslive.de
I found 22 games in which 7.Qxf6 Nxf6 was played. 8 wins for White, 4 losses and 10 draws. I've never seen this played in GM level, though.. maybe because it is equalized very soon (at move 7!), as you said.
|Aug-01-08|| ||Silverstrike: An interesting loss of mine in this opening:
Julius Schwartz v Richard Birkett (1988)
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Nxc6 bxc6 7.Bd3 0-0 8.0-0 d5 9.exd5 cxd5 10.Bg5 c6 11.Qf3 Be7 12.Rfe1 Be6 13.Ne2 h6 14.Bh4 Nd7 15.Bxe7 Qxe7 16.Qg3 Nc5 17.Nf4 Nxd3 18.cxd3 Rae8 19.Rxe6 fxe6 20.N6 Qf6 21.Nxf8 Qxb2 22.Re1 Rxf8 23.h4 e5 24.Rxe5 Rxf2 25.Re7 Rf7 26.Re8+ Kh7 27.h5 Qb6+ 28.Kh2 Qc7 29.Re5 Re7 30.d4 Rxe5 31.dxe5 d4 32.Qg6+ Kg8 33.Qe6+ Qf7 34.Qc8+ Kh7 35.e6 Qf4+ 36.Kh3 d3 37.e7 d2 38.e8Q resigns
|Sep-19-08|| ||sentriclecub: 姐妹淘的聚会-|
|Feb-22-09|| ||FiveofSwords: <wannabe> the scotch is very impotant in my repitore, been playing it for years. you mentioned the pullman variation. 1 e4 e5 2 nf3 nc6 3 d4 ed 4 nxd4 Qh5?!. this is very unpopular and with good reason. You made white play 5 Nb5. Thats not a good move. 5 Nc3 is the correct move. The number of ways the game might continue is enormous. But consider this: 5...Bb4 6 Be2 Bxc3 ?! 7 bxc3 Qxe4?! 8 0-0. Now if you analyze with your computer from this position you should see that white has a huge advantage in all lines.|
|Feb-22-09|| ||FiveofSwords: <wannabe> the second line you discuss is a very common beginner's mistake in the scotch. 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 d4 ed 4 Nxd4 Nxd4?!5 Qxd4. White is clearly better. his queen is strongly centralized and its hard to remove from that square. the pressure on g7 is annoying for black and black has no chnce of equalizing the center. 5..d6 is probably black's best move in that position but it is accepting the inferior center with a pawn on d6 versus whites pawn on e5. This is very significant and if you dont understand why you then you need to understand mroe about positional concepts in chess. black's pawn on d6 makes it difficult for him to move his peices around...it gets in their way. black has a hard time moving his c pawn because the d pawn would be weak. its not a catastrophe or anything, but it is significant and master play is all about building up and knowing how to use small concessions like this by your opponent. then you continue 6.Bc4 !?. This move probably isnt bad, but I see no reson why this should be the move. it has some logic to it but probably Nc3 is superior since it is more flexible with the bishop's placement and I dont see why white need be in a hurry to 0-0. In fact maybe white wants 0-0-0. 6...Qf6!?. for white to play qxf6 would be a terrible novice mistake. You remove one of your developed peices from the board and black recaptures and develops simultaneously. When you have a space advantage like there is in this structure of e4 vs d6, you want to avoid exchanges because the other guy's peices are basically inferior to yours. Qd3 is a fine response I guess but other queen moves are probably okay as well. Look at the posiiton in the diagram and notice the difference in the queens. White's queen can cover a lot more squares and influence a lot more of the board than black's, since it can swing to either the kingside or the queenside. Black's queen is also jamming up his kingside peices, Nf6 is not legal and after Be7 the bishop is, for as long as the queen is there, just a pawn. Probably black's queen will quickly move again, redeploying on g6, and hope to get some counterplay against white's e4 and g2. But white keepts a much better position anyway. Notice that this plan would be much weaker if white had played Nc3 instead of Bc4.|
|Feb-22-09|| ||FiveofSwords: <wannabe> even if white did, however, make the ridiculous move qxf6, then no, black still has not equalized. His mobility still suffers from the d6 pawn. But its a huge amount easier for black than if white simply moves his queen.|
|Feb-25-09|| ||FiveofSwords: chigorin's lines are mostly acceptable and that is the most typical stuff. Just something i cant help but metion about the mieses line...The 'common ending that comes up via different move orders' actually wont occur, probably, if white knows the scotch pretty well. there is a different ending, however, with an exchange for 2 pawns material imbalance which is rather unclear and also quite hard for white to avoid. there is no doubt in my mind that 9...g5 is black's best move in that position and its rare for me to think I know what the best move is in an opening even if im very familiar with it....other moves might be playable, but are very hard for black....9..g5 is still rpetty hard for black if he doesnt know what he's doing. 9...Qh5 actually completely loses by force, but the line is messy and if white doesnt know it he could possibly lose. Even a very strong computer will take at least a couple days to figure out that 9...Qh5 loses, and find the correct refutation for white.|
|Feb-25-09|| ||Chigorin: <FiveofSwords>
"chigorin's lines are mostly acceptable"
I admit, it's a pretty superficial summary. I guess you get what you pay for :)
"The 'common ending that comes up via different move orders' actually wont occur, probably, if white knows the scotch pretty well."
Why is this? You think this line is bad for White?
"there is no doubt in my mind that 9...g5 is black's best move in that position"
Out of curiosity, what do you think Black should play against 10.h4 ?
I personally think 9...0-0-0 with the idea of 10.g3 g5 is best, but to each his own.
|Feb-28-09|| ||WhiteRook48: we're drinking, right?|
|Mar-01-09|| ||FiveofSwords: well h4 isnt a good plan for white, i dont think, against 9...g5. In fact its probably going to backfire tremendously. The danger for white in this opening is that hes already made quite a lot of pawn moves, and his development is seriously lagging. He tries to keep his superior pawn structure while also avoiding a potentially fatal opening of the position, and work very quickly on his development after the basic stage has been set around move 9. In fact, white's best idea is to sacrifice a pawn in most of the lines where black threatens to open the position. This was kasparov's idea in his match with karpov which rejuvinated the whole line. I dont know what black's best is after h4, but im not beleiving that black cant get a serious advantage, either. h4 would simply be a bad misunderstanding of white about the position, and the potential dangers white may be in. Probably the pawn on g5 need not be defended, black jsut blasts the position open and smashes white. something like that.|
|Mar-01-09|| ||Chigorin: If 10.h4 is such a mindless move it should not be difficult to recommend a response for Black.|
|Mar-01-09|| ||keypusher: The database has eight games with 10. h4, with White scoring +3-1=4. Maybe it's not such a terrible move?!|
|Mar-01-09|| ||Chigorin: I still don't understand why anyone would see it as a terrible move in the first place. It makes some sense.|
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