< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 6 OF 6 ·
|Apr-14-09|| ||blacksburg: in general, in the 4.Ng5 main lines, i find myself really really annoyed with my stupid a5 knight and my broken pawn structure. white just slowly untangles, and i find myself trying to <prove something> on every move.|
i also think that maybe i'm not psychologically "built" to be down a pawn without a clear advantage for it.
i'm probably going to have to start playing 3...Bc5, which is a shame, because i like every other line in the Two Knights except for the 4.Ng5 line, which just annoys the crap out of me.
if there are any Two Knights specialists out there that would like to talk me out of playing 3...Bc5, i'm all ears. but these freaking 4.Ng5 lines are killing me. the game just becomes totally irrational, and i don't like it.
|May-19-09|| ||blacksburg: perhaps the opening of the day selection has something to do with naka's triumph in the final round of the US Championship?|
Nakamura vs J Friedel, 2009
|Jul-18-09|| ||radu stancu: I'm by no means an expert in this line (or any other for that matter :) ) but here are two victories of mine with black against 4. Ng5:|
[Event "55th GK tournament"]
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5+ c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Qf3 Rb8 9. Bd3 h6 10. Ne4 Nxe4 11. Bxe4 Be7 12. d3 O-O 13. Qg3 f5 14. Bxh6 Bf6 15. Bf3 Rxb2 16. Na3 Qe7 17. Bc1 Qb4+ 18. Bd2 Qxa3 19. O-O Rxc2 20. Rfc1 Rxd2 0-1
[Event "Team match"]
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5+ c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Be2 h6 9. Nf3 e4 10. Ne5 Bd6 11. d4 exd3 e.p. 12. Nxd3 Qc7 13. h3 O-O 14. O-O c5 15. b3 c4 16. bxc4 Nxc4 17. Nd2 Nxd2 18. Bxd2 Bb7 19. Bb4 Bxb4 20. Nxb4 Rfd8 21. Nd3 Rac8 22. Rc1 Ne4 23. c4 Qa5 24. Qc2 Nd2 25. Rfd1 Qg5 26. Bg4 Rxc4 27. Qb2 Rxc1 28. Rxc1 Rxd3 29. Qxb7 Nf3+ 30. Bxf3 Qxc1+ 31. Kh2 Qf4+ 32. Kg1 Rc3 33. Be2 Rc1+ 34. Bf1 0-1
I've been equally successful against 4. d4:
[Event "44th GK tournament"]
1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 Nc6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. d4 exd4 5. e5 d5 6. Bb5 Ne4 7. Nxd4 Bd7 8. Bxc6 bxc6 9. O-O c5 10. Nb3 c6 11. f3 Ng5 12. f4 Ne4 13. f5 c4 14. Nd4 Qb6 15. Nc3 O-O-O 16. Nxe4 dxe4 17. Bg5 Bc5 18. c3 Rde8 19. f6 gxf6 20. Bxf6 Rhg8 21. Kh1 Bxd4 22. cxd4 Be6 23. Bh4 Bd5 24. Bg3 Rg6 25. Qh5 Reg8 26. Qxh7 e3 27. e6 Bxe6 28. Qh4 Rg4 29. Qe7 Rh8 30. Be5 Rhg8 31. Rxf7 Bxf7 32. Qxf7 Rxg2 33. Bg3 Rg2xg3 34. hxg3 Rh8+ 35. Kg1 Qxd4 36. Qe6+ Kb7 37. Qe7+ Ka8 38. Re1 Qd2 0-1
[Event "Team match"]
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d4 exd4 5. e5 d5 6. Bb5 Ne4 7. Nxd4 Bd7 8. Bxc6 bxc6 9. O-O c5 10. Ne2 c6 11. Nbc3 f5 12. exf6 e.p. Nxf6 13. Bg5 Be7 14. Na4 O-O 15. Bxf6 Rxf6 16. Qd2 Qc7 17. Rfe1 Bd6 18. Ng3 Raf8 19. f3 Bxg3 20. hxg3 Qxg3 21. Nxc5 Bh3 22. Qf2 Qg5 23. Kh2 Bxg2 24. Qxg2 Qh4+ 25. Qh3 Qf2+ 0-1
Note that the ratings for each player are the current gameknot ratings, not the ones at the time of the game.
I have one more game in progress against 4. d4 but it's inconclussive so far, still well within theory.
|Jul-18-09|| ||TheAlchemist: <radu stancu> Well done, especially in the second game! It's usually really fun playing with black against 4.Ng5 and it's always great seeing it defeated like that :-)|
I like 4.d4 exd4 5.O-O best as white, it always leads to very fun games.
|Jul-18-09|| ||radu stancu: Thanks. :) I'm particularly pleased to have found the plan starting with 14...c5, 15...c4 and the maneuver 23...Qa5, 24...Nd2, 25...Qg5.|
The still ongoing game is indeed in the 4.d4 exd4 5.O-O line, I'm curious to see what it leads to.
|Oct-14-09|| ||radu stancu: My 4.d4 exd4 5.O-O game ended in a quick draw when white decided to go for a perpetual:|
[Event "Slow Ladder"]
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d4 exd4 5. O-O Nxe4 6. Re1 d5 7. Bxd5 Qxd5 8. Nc3 Qa5 9. Nxe4 Be6 10. Bd2 Bb4 11. Nxd4 Nxd4 12. c3 Be7 13. cxd4 Qd5 14. Bf4 c6 15. Be5 O-O 16. Nc3 Qd7 17. Qd2 Bb4 18. Bxg7 Kxg7 19. Qg5+ Kh8 20. Qf6+ 1/2-1/2
First new move was 16. Nc3 and after 18.Bxg7 it was a forced perpetual. I'll have to see what other options black has for moves 16 and mainly 17 to avoid the instant draw.
|Nov-21-09|| ||muwatalli: do any two knights players have an opinion on the line 4. d4 exd4 5. e5? i play the scotch and urusov gambits sometimes as white, and they often transpose to the 4. d4 two knights defense, after looking a bit at 5. ng5 and 5. 0-0 and learning that white can't hope for anything more than equality from them, i am forced to turn to 5. e5. Anyway, what is the current verdict on the line? or what have your experiences been with the line (on either side)?|
|Nov-21-09|| ||tpstar: <muwatalli> 4. d4 exd4 5. e5 usually leads to 5 ... d5 by Black Opening Explorer and if 6. Bb5 Ne4 is the Modern Two Knights = Opening Explorer Or else White could enter Max Lange with 6. exf6 dxc4 with the key difference that 7. fxg7 Bxg7 helps Black a great deal.|
Both lines are playable for both sides, and the superior theoretician should win the opening while the superior tactician wins the game. =)
|Apr-05-10|| ||FiveofSwords: blacksburg, you do have more options than c6 and na5, if you dont like those positions (im not fod of them either). 1e4 e5 2 Nf3 nc6 3 Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5. ed Nd4!? is interesting, the fritz variation, but extremely sharp. Very dangerous for white if you knwo what you are doing. 5 ..Na5 6 Bb5+ Bd7!? also isnt so terrible, its somewhat more tame, its rare (a good thing) and black isnt going to be a pawn down.|
|May-12-10|| ||TheAlchemist: My latest Traxler win
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bb3 Rf8 7.O-O h6 8.Nf3 d6 9.d3 Bg4 10.c3 Nh5 11.Nbd2 Nf4 12.Bc2 Qd7 13.b4
click for larger view
Bxb4 14.cxb4 Nd4 15.Kh1 Nxg2 16.Rg1 Nxf3 17.Rxg2 Nxh2 18.f3 Nxf3 19.Ba4 Qe6 20.Bb3 Qg6 21.Nxf3 Qh5+ 22.Kg1 Rxf3 23.Bb2 Raf8 24.Qc2 c6 25.Bxe5 Qxe5 0-1
|Oct-01-10|| ||LDJ: Has anyone got any suggestions on what to play after <1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d3> if you don't want to get into a dull game? I like the 4.Ng5 and 4.d4 lines in the Two Knights, but 4.d3 Bc5 5.O-O d6 6.Nc3 O-O is just not the kind of game I like. (I don't play 3...Bc5 because of 4.Nc3 Nf6 which leads to the same kind of positions.) If there's a way to avoid this, please let me know.|
|Oct-01-10|| ||MaxxLange: after <1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d3>
it looks like there are only two serious choices in The Book:, 4...Bc5, and playing symmetrical chess, or trying 4...Be7|
you can't really stop White from playing a quiet system
|Oct-03-10|| ||LDJ: OK, thanks, <MaxxLange>.|
|Jul-04-11|| ||soughzin: But you can try! Here are some of my attempts.
4...d5 5.exd Nxd 6.0-0 Bc5 7.Re1 Be6 8.Nc3 Nxc 9.bxc Bxc4 10.dxc Qxd1 11.Kxd1 endgame against tripled pawns.
Or 8.Nxe5 Nxe 9.Rxe Bxf2+! (Kx, Qf6+)
4...g6 playing a fianchetto. Most white players will accept this, but it leaves you open for Ng5. But you can play it almost like a two knights defense (no traxler, fritz). g6 is useless but d3 can get in the way. 5.Ng5 d5, 6.exd Na5 white may think bishop check like in the regular two knights but there is no good escape route. Instead 7.0-0 Bg7 8.Nc3 0-0. White has a small/mid advantage but at least it's something different.
Another attempt at a fianchetto. 4...h6 added benefit of white thinking umm if I wanted to play Ng5 I would have done it last move' and underestimate you. Then carry on with g5 and Bg7.
Yet another, queenside. 4...a6 5.Nc3 b5 6.Bb3, then Be7 or Bc5, and Bb7
Quick Na5. 4...d6 (Ng5 d5 exd b5) 5.Nc3 Na5 and at least you can knock out the bishop.
Reaches? Maybe. Good tries for blitz though.
|Jul-04-11|| ||Akavall: <after <1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d3> it looks like there are only two serious choices in The Book:, 4...Bc5, and playing symmetrical chess, or trying 4...Be7>|
I thought 4...h6 was also pretty common. I remember that Svidler played it. The more common line involves d6, g6, Bg7, Qe7, 0-0 type of plan, not g5 that <soughzin> is referring to, though the latter I am sure is sharper.
|Dec-30-11|| ||Penguincw: Opening of the Day
Two Knights Defense
1.e4 e5 2.♘f3 ♘c6 3.♗c4 ♘f6
click for larger view
|Jul-15-12|| ||Amarande: I was looking at Morphy vs NN, 1858 and thinking, is 6 ... Nxd5 clearly proven to be a mistake? Can Black very definitely not survive after this (after all, the similar Fegatello (C57) line is mainly busted, and even the Lolli is defensible; in point of fact, this is transposing into the Lolli with ... exd4 so if there is a viable defence, the move is playable)?|
I was analysing this variation for a while, and thinking that if Black averts the King-hunt sac, he may be able to survive. In other words, after 7 O-O, either 7 ... Be6 or 7 ... Qd7 is to be considered, both avoiding a mandatory capture with the King on f7 after Nxf7.
I have looked at 7 ... Be6 mainly, and it seems as if White gains an advantage in this variation. Although the lines I played out to a further degree led to White wins I am still not certain if this is a fait accompli at the opening stage: 8 Re1 (this and the next move can be transposed) Qd7 9 Nxe6 fxe6 (now the crux will be the play against Black's weak pawn) 10 Qg4 Nd8. This last move is forced if Black wants to have a shot at castling, as it is the only non-King move that can reinforce e6. (10 ... e5 would normally get Black out of the pickle, but after the exchange of Queens he would lose his Nd5.)
click for larger view
Now White has severe pressure on e6, and Black certainly cannot consider O-O-O which would otherwise be safest, as it is virtually impossible to disentangle Nd8 in any reasonable amount of time without moving the King. However, he also cannot easily reinforce the attack for several moves, and Black threatens to consolidate with a Bishop development followed by O-O. For instance 11 Nd2 Bb4 and now 12 Ne4 Bxe1 is unsound, for White would want to next develop the Bishop in order to reinforce things, but as the only available square is g5 which actually permits Black to finally castle! (Without the B move, 13 ... O-O would be impossible because of Nf6+ winning the Queen)
As Bb4 presents a pain in the rear for White, 11 c3 suggests itself. Now Black must waste time to remove this Pawn before he can develop the Bishop Bb4: 11 ... dxc3 12 Nxc3 (a B move would again be unsound on account of cxb2) Bb4 and now 13 Nxd5! is enterprising. Acceptance of this Exchange sacrifice is mandatory or Black loses a raft of material, so 13 ... Bxe1 14 Nf4! and Black is under severe pressure. Can Black defend? If for instance he tries to free himself with 14 ... e5, there follows 15 Qh5+ regaining the Exchange, for if 15 ... g6? 16 Qxe5+ wins, so 15 ... Kf8 (Ke7 also permits Ng6+ but may be a shade better) 16 Ng6+ hxg6 17 Qxh8+ Ke7 18 Qxg7+ Kd6 19 Qxg6+ 20 Bxe6 Qxe6 21 Qxe6+ Kxe6 22 Be3 Bb4 23 Rd1, and White, with an extra Pawn, two connected passed Pawns, a developed Rook versus Black's undeveloped one at a8, and complete control of the only fully open file, must win.
7 ... Qd7 I have not really thought much into. 8 Nxf7 Qxf7 seems to be unsound, so something else is necessary, but what?
|Jul-15-12|| ||Marmot PFL: <7 ... Qd7 I have not really thought much into. 8 Nxf7 Qxf7 seems to be unsound, so something else is necessary, but what?>|
8 Re1+ Be7 9 Qf3 with dual attack on d5 and f7.
Similar is your other line 7...Be6 8 Re1 Qd7 9 Nxf7 (here it is sound) Kxf7 10 Qf3+ Kg8 11 Rxe6!
|Dec-26-12|| ||Kikoman: <Opening of the Day>|
<<<Two Knights Defence, Traxler Variation>>>
1. e4 e5 2. ♘f3 ♘c6 3. ♗c4 ♘f6 4. ♘g5 ♗c5
click for larger view
The debut of this opening: J Reinisch vs Traxler, 1890.
|Dec-26-12|| ||haydn20: <drukenknight: Here's what I think is a novelty in the two knights, has anyone seen 6...Nd7?> Undeveloping the c8B just looks bad to me. After 7. d4! I can't find a good move for Black. 7....e4? 8. Qxd4 and Black's Kside is doomed. White threatens the crushing dxe5 also.|
|Jun-02-13|| ||Amarande: d3 and Ng5 lines are surprisingly deadly. Perhaps even more so, since after d3, Black is much less likely to expect White to move forward with the rapid attack. For instance after the natural reply 4 ... d5:|
1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Nf6 4 d3 d5 5 exd5 Nxd5 6 Ng5! rears up once again, this time with Black having already put himself in the Fried Liver formation.
I am not even sure what is best for Black here; indeed, the seemingly consolidating 6 ... Be7 looks like a recipe for disaster. While White has not played *d4*, he *has* opened the path for his other Bishop, and this seems to be enough to make the Fried Liver go from dangerous for Black to outright pandemonium. (It's interesting how even the slightest extra for White in variations similar to the FL can be enough to make it fatal ... there is also, in addition to something like this, a variation in the Ruy Lopez with the same sac that seems still more tipped towards White ...)
After 6 ... Be7(?) White seems to have it all in hand: 7 Nxf7! Kxf7 8 Qf3+ Ke6 9 Nc3 Nb4.
In the main-line FL this is Black's first step on the long road to recovery. However, with White having cleared room for his DSB, it seems that Black virtually has to have the e7 square for his Knight and that the Bishop move, far from useful development, is even a "losing move!" Even some dubious looking move like 6 ... h6 looks like Black might do better with it than 6 ... Be7. We shall see why in a moment.
10 a3 !!
And here is the root of it all. White can hardly afford this move in the main-line Fegatello, as it loses the Exchange from Nxc2+ (hence Black banks on ... Nb4 to gain a tempo for a more solid guard with ... c6, as White has to put in some defensive measure e.g. Qe4). Now, however, with White's DSB ready to enter the attack, he can afford to push away the Black Knight, and Black's position rapidly totters.
10 ... Nxc2+
c6 might be better here, giving back the piece to bolster the centre. It's uncertain.
11 Kd1 Nxa1 12 Nxd5 !
Better than 12 Bxd5+, after which Black just has Kd6 and it's hard to see how White might proceed. Now White threatens 13 Nxc7+, but even more urgently 13 Nb6+ Kd6 14 Qd5#. It's not clear there is much Black can do about this, either, e.g. 12 ... Kd6 13 Nxe7! Kxe7 (Qxe7 14 Qd5#) 14 Qf7+ Kd6 15 Qd5+ Ke7 16 Bg5+ and mate next move (this pattern repeats itself several times in the following analysis). Or 12 ... Bd6? 13 Nb6+ Ke7 14 Qf7#. Or 12 ... Bg5? (or 12 ... Bf8? or even 12 ... Bc5?) 13 Nb6+ Ke7 14 Qf7+ Kd6 15 Qd5+ Ke7 16 Bxg5+ etc. The final Bishop move attempt is 12 ... Bf6? (attempting to block Qf7+ that was fatal before) but this too fails to 13 Nxf6+ Kd6 (if Ke7 14 Bg5 and it looks like Black loses his Queen at least in all outcomes) 14 Qd5+ Ke7 15 Qf7+ (She gets there anyway!) Kd6 16 Ne4+ Kc6 17 Bg5! and Black must lose his Queen or succumb to the final phase of the King-hunt: 17 ... Qd7 18 Bb5+ Kxb5 (else the Queen is lost) 19 Qc4+ Ka5 20 Qb4+ Ka6 21 Nc5#, or 17 ... Qd4 18 Be3! Qd8 (if instead Qxb2 19 Qd5# again) 19 Bb5+! Kxb5 20 Qc4+ etc. as in the previous line. It looks like the sort of thing Morphy might have played.
Thus, 12 ... c6 seems mandatory, but White can then just snag the Rook on a8 via the discovered check, after which his King finds himself considerably safer than Black's, while the Rook and DSB are quickly available for the attack. Black may have some hope in this line but I'm not sure if it's really much.
|Jun-02-13|| ||perfidious: <Amarande>: A perfectly playable move which I have used, besides the natural 4....Bc5, is 4....h6, as played in Nunn vs Christiansen, 1982.|
Any player of experience knows that 4....d5 is to be avoided.
|Dec-24-13|| ||FiveofSwords: amarande, 4...d4 is not a natural move. Black might be okay with playing that move soon, but at least he would want to 0-0 first.|
|Jun-13-15|| ||WarmasterKron: The most ridiculous game of chess I've ever played: |
[Event "GameKnot Blitz"]
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5
5. Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6. Kf1 Rf8 7. Nxd8 Nxe4 8. Qh5+ g6
9. Qxh7 Bg3+ 10. Ke2 Nd4+ 11. Ke3 Bf2+ 12. Kxe4 d5+
13. Bxd5 Bf5+ 14. Kxe5 Rxd8 15. Bc4 b5 16. Bb3 Nc6+
17. Kf4 Be6+ 18. Kg5 Rf5+ 19. Kxg6 Ne5+ 20. Kh6 Ng4+
21. Kg6 Rf6+ 22. Kg5 Rf5+ 23. Kxg4 Rd4+ 24. Kh3 Rh5# 0-1
click for larger view
|Jul-07-16|| ||soughzin: Just wanted to follow up on the old discussion of 4...d5 (in particular 6.Ng5). Black actually seems fine here because of 6...f6. 7.Qf3 fails to the nice shot 7...Nd4, and white doesnt have dxe here because they played d3 vs d4 earlier.|
Of course white has other approaches to 4...d5 but I think its perfectly playable below IM level.
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