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|Nov-01-06|| ||Kean: hi <Kriegspiel>, i tried this in the 8.kd1 line:|
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Bxc6 dxc6 5.Nxe5 Qd4 6.Qh5+ g6 7.Nxg6 Qxe4+ 8.Kd1 Nf6 9.Qg5 or 9.Qh4 9...Qg4+ 10.Qxg4 Nxg4
& then 11.re1+ kd1, for in d7 obstructs his bishop & in f7 nxh8+ gives white time to defend f2, then 12.nxh8 and if 12...nxf2 ke2 wins the exchange
im not familiar with the schliemann, but i usually play 4.d3 or 4.nc3, what do you think is the best for black after nc3?
|Nov-03-06|| ||Kriegspiel: <Kean> I could have sworn that I had worked something out that made 11.Re1+ a bad idea for White, but now I can't seem to find it (if, indeed, I ever did). I seem to recall that it involved pushing the pawn on f5 (with loss of material) but taking advantage of White's lack of queenside development and exposed king. Oh well -- thank you for pointing that out (obvious enough, but not for me apparently).|
As for 4.Nc3, the main line, 4...fxe4 is the recommended move for Black. Both 4...Nd4 and 4...Nf6 are said to lead to a clear advantage for White. But I am only quoting others there.
|Nov-03-06|| ||Kriegspiel: <kean> OK, see if this isn't an improvement in the 8.kd1 line:|
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Bxc6 dxc6 5.Nxe5 Qd4 6.Qh5+ g6 7.Nxg6 Qxe4+ 8.Kd1 Nf6 9.Qg5 or 9.Qh4; and now, instead of 9...Qg4+?? we have 9...Ng4. Here are the two lines:
(a) 9.Qg5 Ng4 and now Black threatens 10...Nxf2# and White must make either make a flight square or use his queen to cover f2 (11.d3 or 11.Qh4).
(b) 9.Qh4 Ng4 and now Black threatens to win the queen with ...Ne2+ or the knight with ...hxg6 (the White queen cannot take the rook without abandoning coverage of the f2 square).
There are a lot of variations possible within each of these, and also note that (a) can transpose into (b). However, what I have seen looks promising for Black to me. How would you play these as White?
I am really most convinced of two things: (1) Studying the Schliemann might be a really good way for Black to learn sharp tactics; (2) The "strong analysis engine" at chesslab.com really stinks. It misses obvious moves which can radically change its evaluations if manually plugged in; and also a single additional move added to its analysis (beyond the horizon of its examination) can change a line which it says is slightly better for White into one very, very good indeed for Black (or, vice-versa).
I'm also still waiting to hear a "definitive" answer (if there is such a thing) from a good Fritz analysis, regarding the strength of 7...hxg6 in this line. I'm beginning to get an idea about how lines can continue to be classified as "unclear" even in the age of computer analysis. The Schliemann seems to be, especially outside the main line, a hotbed of tactical variations.
|Nov-05-06|| ||Kean: hi <Kriegspiel>, when i saw 9...ng4 i also thought that it was definitive. but then today i again realised that the white rook still can go to e1 pinning the black q, & if the white q had fleed to h4 after being attacked by the kt, then she can defend f2 succefully avoiding the mate.|
so maybe if 9.qh4 then qxh4 10.nxh4 & black is a pawn down but better developed. white cant castle but his rook is active & without queens there is maybe less danger
yet all in all, if all the above is right, i dont like 4.Bxc6, cause gives a B, a developed piece, & opens both the black queen line & the queens bishop diagonal ( wich btw is obstructed by his own f5 and only weakened his k-side). i would play 4.Nc3 though i dont know wich the theory is, or how will the game continue after 4...fxe4 & 5...d5 by black
|Nov-06-06|| ||Kriegspiel: <Kean> Egad, you're right. After 9.Qg5 Ng4 White cannot play 10.Re1 pinning the queen since this permits the smothered mate 10.Nxf2# when the pin no longer matters. But after 9.Qh4 the f2 square is guarded and that is no longer an option for Black. (I feel sure that I recognized this fact, so I'm not sure how I ended up ignoring it in the end.)|
However, with a slight change in move order, this may work out well for Black yet. The basic opening is as before (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Bxc6 dxc6 5.Nxe5 Qd4 6.Qh5+ g6 7.Nxg6); and now instead of 7...Qxe4+, Black interposes the knight move 7...Nf6 immediately.
Now on 8.Qh4, Black again has 8...Ng4; but in the modified move order, the rook cannot threaten Black's queen because the e-file is yet to be opened. White's best response is 9.Nf4 but I'll give several lines here:
(a) 9.Nxh8?? Qxe4+ 10.Kf1 (or 10.Kd1) 10...Ne3+ 11.dxe3 Qxh4 and Black has won the White queen with the knight on h8 to follow after an immediate ...Bg7. Note that the White pawn recapturing on e3 blocks the action of White's rook on the e-file. If after 10.Kd1, instead of 11.dxe3 White plays 11.Ke1, Black wins with the discovered double-check 11...Nxg2+ followed by ...Nxh4. (After 10.Kf1 White's king will block his rook.)
(b) 9.o-o?? hxg6 is also very good for Black. The Black queen protects the rook on h8, which now attacks the White queen on h4. There is a nice convergence of black pieces (rook and knight attacking h2, knight and queen attacking f2, queen attacking e4) as well as two nice open diagonals for Black's f8 bishop and other bishop is already cleared to move.
(c) 10.Nf4! Qxe4+ 11.Ne2 Qxg2 12.Rg1 Qf3 is somewhat advantageous for Black, but I would prefer to see this line improved if possible.
By all means, however, if I have overlooked something again, do post the refutation here.
|Nov-06-06|| ||Kriegspiel: <Kean> The main line is something like 15 moves in the opening. At virtually every move there is ample opportunity for variation, and the Schliemann is really a tactical minefield for both White and Black. I would imagine that theory could change very quickly in the Schliemann. It looks very interesting to study; and it offers some good attacking opportunities to a Black player who is either well-studied in it or else a tactical wizard (I am neither); I should imagine that many White opponents up to Master level are not especially familiar with the main line or its primary variations, so someone specializing in it as a Black player might have an edge. It offers an interesting alternative to the Open Variation of the Ruy, for Black players who want attacking chances and opportunities for tactical play, but it certainly isn't to be approached lightly, since there are ample opportunities for Black to step in a hole and lose. Any time you move the f-pawn in front of your uncastled king early in the game, you had better know the risks and be prepared to meet them; and since the Schliemann is an attacking line *for Black*, by all means get familiar with those attacks, since otherwise one is simply playing a gambit line in the hope of achieving parity. Though it may be relatively easy in the Schliemann for Black to get his pawn back, should White take the bait, if that is what Black wants to play for, Black should get used to the idea of letting White "gain" material in those cases where it provides tactical opportunities to get that material back *or more*, and not simply play a defender's game. |
|Nov-07-06|| ||Kean: Kean: <Kriegspiel> i cant but agree that all these lines are pretty interesting. a prepared player can use it successfully as another option to the usual defenses.|
the new move order in your line makes things more difficult for white & i think indeed gets black a better game. since the first posts i was feeling that black gets a dangerous counter play with queen & kt attacking in combo, while the white king is so lonely, with his q-side forces sleeping, his queen & kkt diverted with the black rook & pawns.
for instance with a) white commits suicide, & if white takes the rook, the sac on e3 is nice.
c) 10.nf4 qxe4+ 11.ne2 qxg2 12.rg1 qf3 i think is the best for white. after 12...qf3 take a look at this:
13.qh5+ kd1 -for in other squares obstructs the bishops - 14.qh4+ be7 15.qg3 & now the queens are exchanged, otherwise white develops his q-side:
15...qd5 16.nc3 qd6 17.bf4 or 16...qe5 17. d4 qf6 etc.
15...qe4 16.nc3 qxc2 17.ne4 surprisingly wins the black queen.
maybe 15...qe4 16.nc3 qe6 is better, keeping an eye in the pinned kt
anyway, if 15...qxg3 hxg3, black regains material & has the bishop pair, his remaining pawn structure is disrupted & has lost the right to castle, not so important, though he has yet to move his k to activate his q-rook. white has a weak attacked f2 & is back in development. i think this is slightly better for black if he succeeds in maintaining fast threats, what do you think?
|Nov-07-06|| ||Kriegspiel: I think you're right about line (c) as I gave it. (Incidentally, in that line I skipped a numeral in giving the next move, and so did you in following my mistaken numbering, so I'll correct that now: |
(c) 9.Nf4 Qxe4+ 10.Ne2 Qxg2 11.Rg1 Qf3
And you wrote: 12.Qh5+ Kd8 13.Qh4+ Be7 14.Qg3 Qxg3 15.hxg3.
And now perhaps: 15...Ne5 16.Rf1 Nf3+ 17.Kd1 ? Frankly, I am not sure that the options up to this point have been satisfactorily explored. I am unsatisfied with line (c) as it now stands, though it does seem to maintain a moderate advantage for Black, precisely because that advantage isn't great and can easily quickly evaporate.
Well, I'll have to take a look at this. Meanwhile, if you care to post further, by all means do so.
|Nov-14-06|| ||soughzin: I'm on break right now at work so I don't have it in front of me but I think I found a new move (at least its out of book) and its an improvement in one of the branches of 4.Nc3 fxe 5.Nxe d5. I'm still trying to play the open games but the ruy is a tough nut to crack and the marshall involved huge amounts of study so I'm giving the schliemann another crack,wish me luck!|
|Nov-14-06|| ||Kriegspiel: <soughzin> Could be! Let us know what it is, won't you?|
|Nov-14-06|| ||Kriegspiel: <soughzin> P.S. The "main line" continuation from there is, according to Kallai, 6.Nxe5! dxe4 7.Nxc6. |
|Nov-15-06|| ||soughzin: Well it's no bust or anything but after that 7.Nxc6 Qg5 8.Qe2 Nf6 9.Nxa7+(White usually plays f4 here) Bd7 10.Bxd7+ Nxd7 11.Qxe4 Be7 (Kd8 is also played) 12.Qxb7 now fritz opening book says 0-0 but black can play the logical move 12...Qe5+ forfeiting white's right to castle and sealing off squares for the king. If 13.Kf1 0-0 white has to watch out for Rxf2+ with Rf8+ and Qe8mate to follow. 13.Kd1 is better but it's still unclear. A move that sort of spoils the fun is 11.f4 then 11...Qc5 12.Nb5 Qxc2 13.Nc3 or d4 when white might just be a pawn up.|
I still can't say I feel very comfortable having the schliemann as my main defense to the ruy but for practical value it can be a nice weapon.
|Apr-04-07|| ||simsim: i played the white side in the following line in a tournament game last week. luckily i was well-prepared :) (i don't play gambits myself, but i recommended the schliemann-gambit to a friend and we analyzed it together)|
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 f5 4. Nc3 fxe4 5. Nxe4 d5 6. Nxe5 dxe4 7. Nxc6 Qg5
somehow i think this queen move is not the best, although it is considered to be the mainline (at least in my opening books).
8. Qe2 Nf6 9. f4! Qxf4
nco/khalifman vol.1 gives 10. Ne5+ as the mainline for white and points out that it keeps the queen from the good square d6. i guess black wants to castle long at some point and have a "battery" ready at once.??
10... Bd7 11. Bxd7+ Nxd7 12. d4 Qf5
now the knight can come back into play with a threat.
maybe this is black's main opening mistake?
14.c3 Ba5 15. Rf1 Qd5
i think this is already a very difficult position for black.
it seems that black's queen (after 7... Qg5) just loses several tempi (especially after the fun-killer 9.f4! which just forces blacks queen to move and protects g2 - 9...Qc5 10. d4 and the queen has to move again) without achieving much.
how could black have improved?
any input appreciated! (especially from "true gambiteers" :)
here the rest of the game (for sake of completeness):
16. Bf4 O-O-O 17. b4 Bb6 18. a4 Qb3 19. Kf2?! (19. a5 ) Rhf8 20. Kg1 Rxf4 21. Rxf4 c6 22. Nd6+ Kc7 23. Nxe4 Re8 24. Qa2 Qxa2 25. Rxa2 h6 26. h4 Kd8 27. Nd6 Re1+ 28. Kf2 Rc1 29. Rf3 Ne5 30. Nf7+ Nxf7 31. Rxf7 Rxc3 32. Ke2 Rg3 33. Kf1 Rb3 34. a5 Bxd4 35. Rxb7 c5 36. a6 c4 37. a7 Bxa7 38. Raxa7 Kc8 39.Rxg7 Kb8 40. Raf7 1-0
|Apr-30-07|| ||simsim: as i was told in another chess forum today:
9. f4! Qxf4 10. Nxa7+ Bd7 11. Bxd7+
11... Kxd7! is the best answer
f.e. 12. Qb5+ Ke6 13. Qxb7 Bd6 14. Qb3+ Kd7 = black has compensation
click for larger view
so it seems that 9. Na7 is the best move for white in this variation.
after 9... Bd7 10. Bxd7 the move
10... Kxd7? doesn't work because 11.Qb5+ forces the exchange of queens, which leaves black with a lost endgame.
10... Nxd7 11. f4 Qc5 11. Nb5 Qxc2 12. d4 Bb4+ 13. Kf2 was pointed out to be the critical line. after the exchange of queens the endgame is difficult for black.
click for larger view
|Apr-30-07|| ||e4Newman: nice research <simsim>|
this opening's tricky for white. in my limited experience i once played 9.f4 Qxp 10.d4. pretty wild - double dizzle.
|May-04-07|| ||WarmasterKron: Opening of the day for this fine variation. My love affair with early f4/f5 pushes probably started with the Schliemann (though I've played the King's Gambit longer), but I've struggled with it recently.|
|May-22-07|| ||Silverstrike: Here is a recent game I played with the Schliemann.
White: Robin Taylor
Black: Julius Schwartz
Event: Nairn vs Aberdeen Teachers (North East League Division 1)
White ELO: 1462
Black ELO: 1647
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.exf5 e4 5.Qe2 Qe7 6.Bxc6 bxc6 7.Nd4 Qe5 8.Nb3 d5 9.d4 Qxf5 10.Be3 Qg6 11.f3 a5 12.fxe4 Ba6 13.Qf3 0-0-0 14.Qf5+ Qxf5 15.exf5 Re8 16.Kf2 Nf6 17.Kf3 g6 18.Nxa5 gxf5 19.Nxc6 Ng4 20.Ne5 Bd6 21.Bf4 Bxe5 22.Bxe5 Nxe5+ 23.dxe5 Rxe5 24.Na3 Rhe8 25.Rhc1 Re3+ 26.Kf2 Re2+ 27.Kg1 Rg8 28.g3 f4 29.c4 fxg3 30.hxg3 Rxg3+ 31.Kf1 Rxb2 32.Rc2 Bxc4+ 33.Nxc4 Rxc2 34.Ne5 h5 35.Resigns
click for larger view
My bishop on a6 was the main piece in the game, it didn't move for 20 moves but it effectively divided the board in half and forced white's king to remain on the kingside, where it could be attacked. 24...Rhe8 Was another key move, cementing my control of the e-file and enabling me to launch the final assault on white's king.
All comment and criticism is welcome.
|Aug-19-07|| ||Bob726: I think 4.d3 gives white a solid advangtage.|
|Nov-06-07|| ||pawnofdoom: My favorite line of the Ruy Lopez other than the Marshall. The open lines have so much tactics and make the games really interesting and fun to watch|
|Aug-01-08|| ||Silverstrike: A nice loss of mine in this opening
White: Andrew McClement (1283)
Black: Julius Schwartz (1647)
May the 27th 2007
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d4 fxe4 5.Nxe5 Nxe5 6.dxe5 c6 7.Be2 Qa5+ 8.Nc3 Qxe5 9.0-0 d5 10.Re1 Bd6 11.g3 Qe7 12.Bf3 Bf5 13.Nxd5 cxd5 14.Qxd5 Qe6 15.Rxe4 Qxe4 16.Bxe4 Bxe4 17.Qxe4+ Kd7 18.Qxb7+ Resigns
Andrew was only around 11-12 at the time this game was played, at the moment he is around 13 and rated 1939.
|Apr-30-09|| ||FHBradley: Who's Schliemann and when did he play 3... f5?|
|Apr-30-09|| ||nescio: <FHBradley: Who's Schliemann and when did he play 3... f5?> |
He didn't. The move 3...f5 was analyzed by Jšnisch and was also named after him (and still is in Europe as far as I know). Later the move was also mistakenly attributed to Schliemann, probably because of the game Max Lange vs A Schliemann, 1868 (3...Bc5 and 4...f5).
Unfortunately the name Schliemann Defence seems to be popular in the English-speaking world.
|Apr-30-09|| ||FHBradley: <Nescio> Thanks. You confirmed my vague impression that we have here yet another instance of a wrong attribution.|
|Apr-30-09|| ||Fanacas: In the netherlands its stil the Janisch gambit. But as far as i now it was already now schliemann defence even in laskers time becous in lasker's manual of chess its called the schlieman defence.|
|Aug-20-09|| ||jamesjddong: So after 3.f5 what is the best move for white? Nc3 or d3?|
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