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| Oct-18-07 |
| Chigorin: <refutor> Here's my best attempt to summarize the main lines (Disclaimer: I don't keep up with cutting edge theory, so take this with a grain of salt): 1.e4 e5 2. f3 c3 3.d4 exd4 4.xd4  c5:
A.)5.xc6  f6 6.d2
A1.)6...bxc6 (6...xc6!?) 7.d3 (7.c3 d6 8.a4 b6 9.d3 e7 10.0-0 0-0 11.xb6) e7 8.c3 d6 9.0-0 b6 A2.)6...dxc6 7.c3 and now Black can try 7...d4, 7...e7 8.f4, or 7...e6 8.a4  d8 (8...d6) 9.d3 d4 10.0-0 (10.c3!? is also important) B.)5.e3 A typical line is 5...f6 6.c3 e7 7.c4 (7.g3 is also important) e5 8.e2 g6 9.0-0 d6 10.f3 (10. h1!? e.g. xe4 11.d2 g6 12.b5 0-0 13.xc7 b8) 10...0-0 11.d2 d5 (continued...) |
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| Oct-18-07 |
| Chigorin: (...continued) As for 4...f6, 5.c3 is a Scotch Four Knights, so if White is trying for advantage he will play 5.xc6 bxc6 6.e5 e7 7.e2 d5 8.c4 and now both 8...b6 and 8...a6 are important. The former can be met by 9.c3 e6 10.e4 b4 11.d2 a6 12.b3 xc3 13.xc3 d5 14.h4 which I really wouldn't want to play with Black. 8...a6 is definitely the most complicated part of the Scotch. After 9.b3 Black can try 9...g6, 9...g5!?, 9...0-0-0, or even 9...h4?! There is a common ending that comes up via many different move orders, e.g. 9.b3 g6 10.g3 g7 11.b2 0-0 12.g2 ae8 13.0-0 xe5 14.xe5 xe5 15.xe5 xe5 17.cxd5 xf1 18.xf1 cxd5 when White may or may not be a tiny bit better, but I imagine someone who really understands these sorts of positions could score well with either color. 4...b4+!? looks bad superficially: Black appears to simply lose a tempo. And after 5.c3 c5 6.e3 f6? that would be true, but after 6...b6 it is quite possible that White's c3 pawn is actually a disadvantage since he can no longer bring his knight to c3. 7.g4! is probably the most critical move, but this variation is not as bad as it looks for Black. 4...h4?! e.g. 5.c3 b4 6.e2 xe4 7.db5 xc3+ 8.bxc3 d8 9.0-0 Hope this helps! |
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| Oct-18-07 |
| qskakaley: Thanks Chigorin! That is DEFINITELY a lot of info to digest, and a super-help to me! I better start studying! :) |
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Jan-09-08
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| WannaBe: A Study in Scotch...
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 Nxd4 4. Nxd4 exd4 5. Qxd4 d6 6. Bc4 Qf6 7. Qd3 
click for larger view White have zero game in the database where 7. Qxf6 is played, is this because 7...Nxf6 equalizes? Both side would have minor piece developed, and a pawn out, by retreating the queen, is that really better than taking? |
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| Feb-06-08 |
| evenua: <Wannabe: Both side would have minor piece developed, and a pawn out, by retreating the queen, is that really better than taking?> Maybe you want to search games here: http://www.chesslive.de I found 22 games in which 7.Qxf6 Nxf6 was played. 8 wins for White, 4 losses and 10 draws. I've never seen this played in GM level, though.. maybe because it is equalized very soon (at move 7!), as you said. |
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| Aug-01-08 |
| Silverstrike: An interesting loss of mine in this opening:
Julius Schwartz v Richard Birkett (1988)
2005/2006
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Nxc6 bxc6 7.Bd3 0-0 8.0-0 d5 9.exd5 cxd5 10.Bg5 c6 11.Qf3 Be7 12.Rfe1 Be6 13.Ne2 h6 14.Bh4 Nd7 15.Bxe7 Qxe7 16.Qg3 Nc5 17.Nf4 Nxd3 18.cxd3 Rae8 19.Rxe6 fxe6 20.N6 Qf6 21.Nxf8 Qxb2 22.Re1 Rxf8 23.h4 e5 24.Rxe5 Rxf2 25.Re7 Rf7 26.Re8+ Kh7 27.h5 Qb6+ 28.Kh2 Qc7 29.Re5 Re7 30.d4 Rxe5 31.dxe5 d4 32.Qg6+ Kg8 33.Qe6+ Qf7 34.Qc8+ Kh7 35.e6 Qf4+ 36.Kh3 d3 37.e7 d2 38.e8Q resigns |
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Sep-19-08
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| sentriclecub: 姐妹淘的聚会&#-
;底按摩篇 |
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| Feb-22-09 |
| FiveofSwords: <wannabe> the scotch is very impotant in my repitore, been playing it for years. you mentioned the pullman variation. 1 e4 e5 2 nf3 nc6 3 d4 ed 4 nxd4 Qh5?!. this is very unpopular and with good reason. You made white play 5 Nb5. Thats not a good move. 5 Nc3 is the correct move. The number of ways the game might continue is enormous. But consider this: 5...Bb4 6 Be2 Bxc3 ?! 7 bxc3 Qxe4?! 8 0-0. Now if you analyze with your computer from this position you should see that white has a huge advantage in all lines. |
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| Feb-22-09 |
| FiveofSwords: <wannabe> the second line you discuss is a very common beginner's mistake in the scotch. 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 d4 ed 4 Nxd4 Nxd4?!5 Qxd4. White is clearly better. his queen is strongly centralized and its hard to remove from that square. the pressure on g7 is annoying for black and black has no chnce of equalizing the center. 5..d6 is probably black's best move in that position but it is accepting the inferior center with a pawn on d6 versus whites pawn on e5. This is very significant and if you dont understand why you then you need to understand mroe about positional concepts in chess. black's pawn on d6 makes it difficult for him to move his peices around...it gets in their way. black has a hard time moving his c pawn because the d pawn would be weak. its not a catastrophe or anything, but it is significant and master play is all about building up and knowing how to use small concessions like this by your opponent. then you continue 6.Bc4 !?. This move probably isnt bad, but I see no reson why this should be the move. it has some logic to it but probably Nc3 is superior since it is more flexible with the bishop's placement and I dont see why white need be in a hurry to 0-0. In fact maybe white wants 0-0-0. 6...Qf6!?. for white to play qxf6 would be a terrible novice mistake. You remove one of your developed peices from the board and black recaptures and develops simultaneously. When you have a space advantage like there is in this structure of e4 vs d6, you want to avoid exchanges because the other guy's peices are basically inferior to yours. Qd3 is a fine response I guess but other queen moves are probably okay as well. Look at the posiiton in the diagram and notice the difference in the queens. White's queen can cover a lot more squares and influence a lot more of the board than black's, since it can swing to either the kingside or the queenside. Black's queen is also jamming up his kingside peices, Nf6 is not legal and after Be7 the bishop is, for as long as the queen is there, just a pawn. Probably black's queen will quickly move again, redeploying on g6, and hope to get some counterplay against white's e4 and g2. But white keepts a much better position anyway. Notice that this plan would be much weaker if white had played Nc3 instead of Bc4. |
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| Feb-22-09 |
| FiveofSwords: <wannabe> even if white did, however, make the ridiculous move qxf6, then no, black still has not equalized. His mobility still suffers from the d6 pawn. But its a huge amount easier for black than if white simply moves his queen. |
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| Feb-25-09 |
| FiveofSwords: chigorin's lines are mostly acceptable and that is the most typical stuff. Just something i cant help but metion about the mieses line...The 'common ending that comes up via different move orders' actually wont occur, probably, if white knows the scotch pretty well. there is a different ending, however, with an exchange for 2 pawns material imbalance which is rather unclear and also quite hard for white to avoid. there is no doubt in my mind that 9...g5 is black's best move in that position and its rare for me to think I know what the best move is in an opening even if im very familiar with it....other moves might be playable, but are very hard for black....9..g5 is still rpetty hard for black if he doesnt know what he's doing. 9...Qh5 actually completely loses by force, but the line is messy and if white doesnt know it he could possibly lose. Even a very strong computer will take at least a couple days to figure out that 9...Qh5 loses, and find the correct refutation for white. |
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| Feb-25-09 |
| Chigorin: <FiveofSwords>
"chigorin's lines are mostly acceptable"
I admit, it's a pretty superficial summary. I guess you get what you pay for :) "The 'common ending that comes up via different move orders' actually wont occur, probably, if white knows the scotch pretty well." Why is this? You think this line is bad for White?
"there is no doubt in my mind that 9...g5 is black's best move in that position" Out of curiosity, what do you think Black should play against 10.h4 ?
I personally think 9...0-0-0 with the idea of 10.g3 g5 is best, but to each his own. |
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| Feb-28-09 |
| WhiteRook48: we're drinking, right? |
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| Mar-01-09 |
| FiveofSwords: well h4 isnt a good plan for white, i dont think, against 9...g5. In fact its probably going to backfire tremendously. The danger for white in this opening is that hes already made quite a lot of pawn moves, and his development is seriously lagging. He tries to keep his superior pawn structure while also avoiding a potentially fatal opening of the position, and work very quickly on his development after the basic stage has been set around move 9. In fact, white's best idea is to sacrifice a pawn in most of the lines where black threatens to open the position. This was kasparov's idea in his match with karpov which rejuvinated the whole line. I dont know what black's best is after h4, but im not beleiving that black cant get a serious advantage, either. h4 would simply be a bad misunderstanding of white about the position, and the potential dangers white may be in. Probably the pawn on g5 need not be defended, black jsut blasts the position open and smashes white. something like that. |
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| Mar-01-09 |
| Chigorin: If 10.h4 is such a mindless move it should not be difficult to recommend a response for Black. |
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Mar-01-09
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| keypusher: The database has eight games with 10. h4, with White scoring +3-1=4. Maybe it's not such a terrible move?! http://www.chessgames.com/perl/ches... |
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| Mar-01-09 |
| Chigorin: I still don't understand why anyone would see it as a terrible move in the first place. It makes some sense. |
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| Mar-02-09 |
| FiveofSwords: Its just that black has a lot of dangerous development which almost kills white at this stage of the opening so white should feel urgently like he needs to catch up. After 10 h4 one natural plan for black would be to ignore it and play Bg7. Now if white plays Bxg5 then Qxe5 and your rook on a1 is problem. Black is winning i think. Same story on move of white's moves. So white would have to deal with that threat, with Bb2 I suppose. But that removes white's control of f4 rather prematurely (before black has been forced to play Nb6) and this is usually bad for him. Black would continue Nf4, and this position looks no fun for white to play since his king feels exposed and black's pieces are starting to swarm around. Maybe a computer can play this way but not me. |
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| Mar-02-09 |
| Chigorin: In Starting Out: The Scotch Game John Emms says of 10.h4: "...I certainly can't find an easy path to equality for Black." The example game given is Smeets-Timman 2002. It doesn't appear to be in the CG database unfortunately. The next few moves in the game were: 10.h4 g7 11.b2 f4 12.e3 h6 13.d2 g6 14.f3 gxh4 (if 14...g4 then 15.h5) Emms' seems to think Black should play 11...0-0-0 12.d2 de8 (12...b4 13.0-0-0) which he thinks might equalize. Still, I don't think this is all so one-dimensionally bad for White as you make it sound. |
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| Mar-04-09 |
| FiveofSwords: well maybe so, I didnt know emms considered this move...sounds interesting and ill look at it. But im sure its a very new idea and the reason it took a long time for white to consider it would be for the reasons I stated.It might be playable but it would need to have the right idea behind it, and I dont understand the point of h4 if you arent trying to win the g pawn. So maybe its ok but i wouldnt try it until I understand the actual plan behind it. But you see, this is a testament to how impossible it is to exhaust all the interesting ideas in a position, because this is a position ive studied a huge amount and never considered any sort of plan involving the move h4. |
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| Mar-05-09 |
| FiveofSwords: concerning the endgame you speak of, Im sure its fine for black, and if white players use the scotch as their main weapon (such as rublevsky) and they actually want to win some games they probably have found various ideas to avoid this. Morozevich, for example, showed an interesting plan, and also people have been playing 10 f4 followed by Qf2 (this is the major point of 9...g5, preventing f4), and im sure there are other possibilities as well. That particular endgame just isnt very promising for white at higher levels or against extremely prepared opponents so you can expect white to avoid it. |
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| Apr-03-09 |
| Dredge Rivers: They should name an opening after Jack Daniels!
Or maybe Boone's Farm! :) |
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| Sep-07-09 |
| gungorh: Can anyone give me some advise about the below variation.
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4
I used to play that opening but then I turned to d4 but as I remember Bc4 has lots of attack variations... |
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| Sep-07-09 |
| nescio: <gungorh> It's not clear to me what you are asking. It seems to me that 4.Bc4 is predominantly a transpositional device as the most logical replies lead to well-known positions of other openings, e.g.: 4...Bc5 5.c3 dxc3 6.Nxc3 (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.c3 dxc3 5.Nxc3 Bc5 6.Bc4) 4...Bc5 5.c3 Nf6 6.cxd4 Bb4+ (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4) 4...Nf6 (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d4 exd4)
Especially the last variation can lead to quite complicated positions which I have never looked at properly. There was a time that I was lured in such messes so often that I stopped playing 1...e5 altogether. That leaves 4...Bb4+ 5.c3 dxc3 6.0-0, but somehow it doesn't look good for Black. |
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Oct-25-09
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| timhortons: Opening Explorer theres only 2 choices move on it and the game is an old game http://www.chessgames.com/perl/ches... 9th move of scotch. sequence on how position was reached with link above 
click for larger view9th.Nc3 is the best option of rybka and has been played more time at gameknot.com database. chessgames.com database offer 9.Nb5 and 9.f3...
sometimes you cant say that following the database line of cg is really good, since some of the lines included in the game was used pre rybka time. |
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