< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 62 OF 62 ·
|Jul-24-18|| ||kingfu: Botvinnik would have never considered himself Finnish anyway. He liked having a good parking space at The Moscow Central Chess Club.|
|Jul-26-18|| ||Howard: Sounds like Retireborn remembers a mini-debate which I provoked about a year ago as to who the first Asian-born GM really was.|
Hint: it was not Torre! And the publication "Chess" (based out of London) even ran a letter to the editor on that subject, which I had submitted)
|Jul-26-18|| ||Olavi: And not Zaitsev… Petrosian?|
|Jul-26-18|| ||Howard: Petrosian....didn't someone post something once stating that Petrosian was, arguably, from an Asian portion of the Soviet Union---not the European portion? Can't quite recall.|
Well, let's put it this way. Zaitsev was absolutely, undoubtedly from Asia. Petrosian was a borderline case, however.
|Jul-26-18|| ||Diademas: <Howard> Zaitsev became a GM in 1976. Torre in 1974...|
|Jul-26-18|| ||Olavi: <Diademas:> Alexander Zaitsev, who won the Soviet championship in 68-69, losing the play-off to Polugaevsky.|
As for Petrosian, where exactly the border between Europe and Asia lies in the Caucasus, I guess no one knows. Born in Tiflis to Armenian parents.
|Jul-26-18|| ||Diademas: <Olavi> Thanks. My bad!|
|Jul-27-18|| ||Howard: Keep in mind that there were at least two players named Zaitsev. Diademas is apparently unaware that the Zaitsev whom I have referred to could not have possibly become a GM in 1976. He'd died in 1971 !|
|Aug-18-18|| ||sakredkow: That's a pretty slim bio for one of the greatest.|
|Aug-19-18|| ||offramp: <sakredkow: That's a pretty slim bio for one of the greatest.>|
What's that song?
♩ Slim bio, my Lord, slim bio!
Oh, Lord, slim bio! ♩
|Aug-30-18|| ||1d410: Let me start out by saying this guy made me play chess. I was inspired by his moves, and wanted to play at the same level, so I started playing chess seriously for a while. Now however, his games seem materialistic when compared to modern players such as Aronian or Caruana. Looking at his games now I feel like his only positional evaluations were counting up the material and finding clever tactics.
From nuclear strategy we know there is not only an ultimate weapon (Queen or nuke for example) but also an ultimate position. I know feel like Petrosian and even Tal understood this better and that is why they unseated Botvinnik as world champion.
Fight me on this guys. I don't like this conclusion but that is how I currently feel, disillusioned....|
|Aug-30-18|| ||Petrosianic: I haven't studied Botvinnik's games enough to know if you're right or not. I always seem to study him from the other side of the board, as being the mountain that somebody else is trying to climb.|
If you look at the Petrosian-Botvinnik match, it's a duel between two extremely positional players. It's not pawn grabbing on one side vs. positional play on the other.
Do you have some positions to cite that would show Botvinnik in this light?
|Aug-30-18|| ||Captain Hindsight: <1d410> I think generalizations of any sort are dangerous - and false, like this one.|
|Aug-31-18|| ||1d410: Well I feel the main clue is that if Botvinnik were like Petrosian he would be doing clever exchange sacs for positional advantages. Its a basic revelation in positional play that material can be exchanged for other positional advantages, such as controlled files or diagonals. Petrosian did this with his exchange sacs for example. I never see Botvinnik compromise on material unless he has a calculated forcing move like a clever tactic. I think this was simply enough to defeat the caliber of his weak opposition in the 30s convinvingly and that he did not need positional play like Petrosians. To be fair though I have only recently come to the playing strength and understanding where I have been able to come to this conclusion, so I don't really know. Any thoughts...|
|Sep-01-18|| ||ughaibu: Here's a famous pre-Petrosian positional exchange sacrifice by Botvinnik: V Liublinsky vs Botvinnik, 1943|
|Sep-01-18|| ||keypusher: <1d410>
Tolush vs Botvinnik, 1945
I Rabinovich vs Botvinnik, 1939
Botvinnik vs H Ree, 1969
I supposed this is too tactical.
Tolush vs Botvinnik, 1939
Incidentally, Botvinnik identified a tendency to grab pawns as one of Tal's weaknesses. Something he tried to take advantage of in games like this:
Botvinnik vs Tal, 1961
|Sep-01-18|| ||Retireborn: Another example (not really positional, more exposing the king) I like very much is:-|
Botvinnik vs Tartakower, 1936
The interesting thing is that Botvinnik could have won the exchange (with 22.Bxh6+ Kxh6 23.Rxf6+ Kg7 24.Nxe8+) instead of sacrificing it.
|Sep-01-18|| ||N0B0DY: <1d410: To be fair though I have only recently come to the playing strength and understanding where I have been able to come to this conclusion, so I don't really know. Any thoughts...> |
<N0B0DY> believes your insubstantial claims.
|Sep-01-18|| ||RookFile: As somebody pointed out to me, Botvinnik had a terrific record with the black pieces. Like Fischer, this guy often put full points up on the board with black.|
|Sep-01-18|| ||1d410: Thanks for the games guys I will take a look, its hard covering every Botvinnik game and I've been researching Botvinnik at the university library too. You guys are great....|
|Sep-02-18|| ||Check It Out: I went through all those Botvinnik games; thank you as well for posting.|
|Sep-14-18|| ||MissScarlett: I've read a piece claiming that Botvinnik's brother was 'killed by the Germans in the war'. Wikipedia confirms the existence of an elder brother, <Issy>, but only in the context of Mikhail's childhood. Does <Achieving the Aim> mention this?|
|Sep-14-18|| ||Telemus: < Botvinnik's brother was 'killed by the Germans in the war'. [...] Does <Achieving the Aim> mention this?> Yes.|
|Sep-14-18|| ||MissScarlett: Who was involved?
Where did it take place?
When did it take place?
Why did that happen?
|Sep-14-18|| ||chancho: <In September 1941, Botvinnik’s brother, Isya, died at the front from incoming German bombs. His aunt and uncle also died in the early days of the war.>|
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