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Topalov 
Photograph copyright © 2005 World Chess Championship Press.  
Veselin Topalov
Number of games in database: 1,811
Years covered: 1986 to 2013
Last FIDE rating: 2793
Highest rating achieved in database: 2813
Overall record: +449 -232 =610 (58.4%)*
   * Overall winning percentage = (wins+draws/2) / total games
      Based on games in the database; may be incomplete.
      520 exhibition games, odds games, etc. are excluded from this statistic.

MOST PLAYED OPENINGS
With the White pieces:
 Sicilian (166) 
    B90 B33 B48 B30 B46
 Ruy Lopez (112) 
    C84 C88 C78 C92 C67
 Ruy Lopez, Closed (67) 
    C84 C88 C92 C97 C95
 Slav (58) 
    D15 D17 D12 D19 D11
 French Defense (52) 
    C11 C10 C18 C19 C02
 Queen's Indian (51) 
    E15 E16 E17 E12
With the Black pieces:
 Sicilian (255) 
    B90 B51 B33 B30 B22
 Sicilian Najdorf (100) 
    B90 B92 B91 B93 B97
 King's Indian (84) 
    E92 E97 E94 E81 E98
 Ruy Lopez (65) 
    C67 C78 C65 C88 C69
 Queen's Pawn Game (59) 
    E00 E10 A46 A40 A41
 Modern Benoni (53) 
    A57 A70 A58 A61 A67
Repertoire Explorer

NOTABLE GAMES: [what is this?]
   Anand vs Topalov, 2005 1/2-1/2
   Topalov vs Aronian, 2006 1-0
   Topalov vs Kramnik, 2008 1-0
   Topalov vs Anand, 2005 1-0
   Topalov vs Ponomariov, 2005 1-0
   Topalov vs Kasparov, 1996 1-0
   Kharlov vs Topalov, 2004 0-1
   Kramnik vs Topalov, 2005 0-1
   Topalov vs Anand, 2005 1/2-1/2
   Svidler vs Topalov, 2005 0-1

WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS: [what is this?]
   FIDE World Championship Knockout Tournament (2001)
   FIDE World Championship Knockout Tournament (2004)
   FIDE World Championship Tournament (2005)
   Kramnik-Topalov World Championship Match (2006)
   Anand-Topalov World Chess Championship (2010)

NOTABLE TOURNAMENTS: [what is this?]
   10th Euwe Memorial (1996)
   Linares (1997)
   7th Corsica Open (2003)
   Corus Wijk aan Zee (2006)
   MTel Masters (2006)
   Linares 2006 (2006)
   Corus (2007)
   Liga de Campeones (2007)
   M-Tel Masters (2008)
   Morelia-Linares (2008)
   2008 Olympiad (2008)
   Chess Olympiad (2012)

GAME COLLECTIONS: [what is this?]
   Match Topalov! by amadeus
   Exchange sacs - 1 by obrit
   Guess-the-Move Chess: 2000-2010 (Part 3) by Anatoly21
   Topalov! by larrewl
   Topalov great games by Topzilla
   Guess-the-Move Chess: 2000-2010 (Part 1) by Anatoly21
   Guess-the-Move Chess: 2000-2010 (Part 2) by Anatoly21
   Topalov and the two bishops by OJC
   Classic Topalov by amadeus
   Najdorf, English Attack by AdrianP
   Complex favorites by Whitehat1963
   Najdorf - 6. Be3 by pcmvtal
   AdrianP's Bookmarked Games (2005) by AdrianP

Search Sacrifice Explorer for Veselin Topalov
Search Google for Veselin Topalov
FIDE player card for Veselin Topalov


VESELIN TOPALOV
(born Mar-15-1975) Bulgaria

[what is this?]
A Grandmaster since 1992 and a former – and the last - FIDE World Champion, Veselin Topalov was born March 15, 1975, in Rousse, Bulgaria. He learned chess at eight years old from his father and began a training/mentoring relationship with Silvio Danailov when he was twelve.

Age championships

In 1989, he won the World Under-14 championship in Aguadilla, Puerto Rico. In 1990 he won a silver medal in the World Under-16 Championship in Singapore.

World Championships

In the knockout tournaments for the FIDE World Chess Championship, Topalov was seeded into the second round in Groningen in 1998, and lost to Jeroen Piket. Again seeded into the second round at the championships in Las Vegas in 1999, Topalov reached the last 16 defeating Ruslan Ponomariov and Lev Psakhis before bowing out to Vladimir Kramnik. In New Delhi and Tehran in 2000, he reached the quarter-finals in 2000 – again from a second round start - defeating Andrei Kharlov, Kiril D Georgiev and Alexey Dreev before losing to Michael Adams. In 2002, he defeated Juan Facundo Pierrot, Giovanni Vescovi and Zhong Zhang before losing to Shirov. He reached the semi-finals in the FIDE World Championship Knockout Tournament (2004) in Tripoli, defeating Tarik Abulhul, Aleksander Delchev, Sergei Movsesian, Zdenko Kozul and Andrei Kharlov in the earlier rounds before losing to eventual winner Rustam Kasimdzhanov.

He also took part in the 2002 Dortmund Candidates' tournament to determine a challenger for World Classical Champion Kramnik, but lost the finals match to Peter Leko.

On the strength of his rating, Topalov was invited to the eight-player, double round-robin FIDE World Championship Tournament (2005) in San Luis, Argentina, in September–October 2005. Scoring 6˝/7 in the first cycle, Topalov had virtually clinched the tournament at the halfway mark, before drawing every game in the second cycle to win by 1˝ points to become FIDE World Chess Champion. The average rating of the field in the championship was 2739, and Topalov's performance rating was 2890. In 2006 he lost his title to Kramnik in the reunification Kramnik-Topalov World Championship Match (2006) played in Elista, under the auspices of FIDE. By losing the reunification match, Topalov lost his chance to compete in the FIDE World Championship Tournament (2007) . Danailov expressed a desire for a rematch between Topalov and Kramnik, proposing a match in March 2007, though no such match took place. The issue was settled in June 2007 when Topalov (as well as Kramnik) was granted special privileges in the 2008-09 championship cycle. Topalov was given direct entry to a "Challenger Match" against the winner of the World Chess Cup (2007) , Gata Kamsky. The Topalov-Kamsky Match (2009) (the Challenger Match) took place in February 2009 in Hall 6 of NDK Sofia. Topalov won that match 4˝-2˝ and qualified to play against the World Champion Viswanathan Anand for the World Chess Champion title, but he lost the Anand-Topalov World Chess Championship (2010) by 6˝-5˝. Topalov automatically qualified for the World Championship Candidates (2011) for the World Chess Championship 2012, where he was the top seed. He faced 8th seeded Gata Kamsky in Kazan in Russia and lost his match 1.5-2.5 (+0 =3 -1), and was thereby eliminated from the 2012 World Championship cycle. He declined to participate in the World Cup (2011) and there was speculation about his future Championship intentions.

Late in 2012, Topalov rejoined the championship circuit from which he had been noticeably absent to take =1st alongside Boris Gelfand and Shakhriyar Mamedyarov at the 1st FIDE Grand Prix London (2012) of the 2012-2013 series, which was held in London. His score of 7/11 (+3 =8 -0; TPR 2834) netted him the 140 points to give a flying start to his 2014 World Championship campaign. A superb follow up at the FIDE Grand Prix Zug (2013), the 3rd event in the GP series, saw him take outright 1st with 8/11 (+5 =6) with a stellar performance rating for the event of 2924. It also added 170 Grand Prix points to his tally to take him to the lead with 310 points. His official rating also qualifies him to participate in the 2013 World Cup if he so chooses.

Tournaments

Topalov first major tournament wins were Terrassa 1992 and Budapest zt-B 1993. He played in Linares 1994 (6˝/13), Linares 1995 (8/13), Amsterdam 1995, and won at Polanica Zdroj and Elenite in 1995. In March 1996, he won Amsterdam (coming =1st with Garry Kasparov), Vienna (ahead of Anatoly Karpov), Novgorod, and Dos Hermanas (1st-2nd with Kramnik). In 1996, he was invited to Las Palmas, the first category 21 tournament, where he scored 5/10, in a field including Kasparov, Anand, Kramnik and Karpov. In 1996 he also took a series of top-level tournament wins-- Madrid and Dos Hermanas in May, Novgorod in July, Vienna in August, as well as Leon - to firmly establish himself among the world's leading players. Between 1997 and 2003, Topalov continued his tournament successes, winning at Antwerp 1997, Madrid 1997, Monaco 2001, Dortmund 2001 (joint first with Kramnik), NAO Chess Masters Cannes 2002 (joint first with Gelfand), the Hotel Bali Stars (2003) at Benidorm 2003, and coming 2nd at the category 16 tournament in Bosnia in 2001. 2004 saw Topalov participate in Wijk an Zee Corus Chess (2004) and 21st Linares (2004) (coming =4th on both occasions), and in the FIDE World Championship Knockout Tournament (2004). He began 2005 by climbing to third place on FIDE's world ranking list. He came 3rd behind Peter Leko and Anand at Corus 2005 and tied for first (coming second on count back) with Garry Kasparov at XXII Torneo Ciudad de Linares (2005) in Kasparov’s final tournament. Two months later, he won the inaugural MTel Masters (2005) event by a full point over Viswanathan Anand; the average rating of the participants was 2744, making this super-GM, double round-robin tournament the strongest in 2005. After his =2nd at Dortmund in 2005, Topalov followed up his 2005 World Championship Tournament victory (see below) with +5 and joint first (with Anand) at Corus Wijk aan Zee (2006) and =2nd at Linares 2006 (2006). There followed his successful defence of MTel Masters (2006) (with 6.5/10, half a point ahead of Gata Kamsky who he beat 2-0), Topalov started the tournament somewhat hesitantly to later record four consecutive wins and decisively claim the title.

Topalov rebounded from his world championship reunification match loss to Kramnik in 2006 to finish equal first (with Levon Aronian and Teimour Radjabov) at the category 19 Corus (2007), but then a poor performance at Linares-Morelia (2007) caused him to lose his #1 spot in the world rankings to Anand. The next year, he regained the #1 position by convincingly winning the inaugural Bilbao Grand Slam Chess Final (2008), scoring +4 -1 =5 in the category-22 tournament. Also in 2007, he won the Mtel Masters (2007), the Liga de Campeones (2007) (a point and a half a head of Ruslan Ponomariov), and in 2008 he won Pearl Spring Chess Tournament (2008) (a point and a half ahead of Aronian). In 2009, he came 2nd with Magnus Carlsen behind Alexey Shirov in the M-Tel Masters (2009) and second behind Carlsen at the latter’s blitz at Pearl Spring Chess Tournament (2009). Soon after losing the world title bid in 2010, Topalov participated in the Essent Chess Tournament. He finished third of four players with only 2˝ points from 6 games and a 2645 performance. He lost both games against Judit Polgar and one against Shakhriyar Mamedyarov. Topalov won the Linares (2010) held from February 13 to 24 in Andalusia, Spain, defeating 2009 Chess World Cup champion Boris Gelfand in his final game. He finished 2010 with 4.5/10 at Nanjing Pearl Spring Tournament (2010). Topalov continued his unremarkable form since narrowly losing his 2010 World Championship match when in early 2012, he finished 10th out of 13 at the category 21 Tata Steel (2012), scoring 5/13 (+1 -4 =8; TPR 2672), before returning to form in the 1st Grand Prix of the 2012-13 series (see above), in the 28th European Club Cup (2012), and with his =1st (2nd on tiebreak) at the Kings' Tournament (2012).

Olympiads

Topalov has been the leader of the Bulgarian national team since 1994 and has played top board for Bulgaria at every Olympiad in which he participated including Moscow 1994, Yerevan 1996, Elista 1998, Istanbul 2000, Dresden 2008, Khanty-Mansiysk 2010 and the Chess Olympiad (2012) in Istanbul. In 1994, he led the Bulgarians to a fifth-place finish, winning the gold medal for the top board, scoring 8.5/12 (TPR 2781). He won the silver medal for the top board in 1998 and 2000, scoring 8/11 on both occasions. In 2008, he won bronze with 6.5/8 and a TPR of 2821.

Other Team Play

In 1989 and 1990, Topalov played in the Bulgarian team contesting the Boys' Balkaniads competition, playing on board 2 in 1989 and board 1 in 1990, winning individual gold on both occasions, as well as a team gold in 1989 and team bronze in 1990. In 1994, he played top board for the gold medal winning Bulgarian national team in the Balkaniad team competition, and won an individual bronze. In 1999, he played 3 games for the gold medal winning European Club Championship team ŠK Bosna Sarajevo, winning two and drawing one. Topalov played top board for Bulgaria in the European Team Championships of 1999 (where he won individual gold), 2007, 2009 and 2011.

Matches

Topalov won the Topalov vs Nisipeanu Match (2006) by 3-1 (+2 =2 -0) in April 2006 and the Blind Chess World Duel (2006) against Polgar by 3.5-2.5.

Rapid

Topalov won the Dos Hermanas XIV (2008) , 17–21 April 2008, defeating Francisco Vallejo-Pons (Spain) 2˝–1˝ in the final match by winning the first game and drawing the rest. He also won the Villarrobledo International Rapid Open (2008) with a commanding 8/9.

Ratings and rankings

<Classical> After Kasparov's retirement, Topalov topped the FIDE World Rating List from April 2006 to January 2007, during which time his Elo rating peaked at 2813, a level that had been surpassed only by Garry Kasparov, and subsequently by Anand, Carlsen and Aronian. He regained the world #1 ranking again in October 2008, and officially remained #1 until January 2010, when he fell to #2 behind Carlsen. He has been ranked number one a total of 27 months in his career, the fifth all-time high since the inception of the FIDE ranking lists in 1971 behind only Garry Kasparov, Anatoly Karpov, Robert James Fischer and most recently Carlsen.

After his unsuccessful challenge for the world title in 2010, his form declined such that by 1 October 2012, Topalov's rating was 2751, his lowest rating since July 2004 and his ranking to number 13 in the world, his lowest ranking since January 1995. However his return to form in September and October 2012 (see above) has seen him return to the top 10, while his successful campaign in the Zug leg of the 2012-13 Grand Prix series saw him leap back to 4th in the world ratings.

As of 1 May 2013, Topalov's rating was 2793, thereby also remaining Bulgaria's top player by a significant margin and moving to number 4 in the world behind Carlsen, Aronian and Kramnik;

<Rapid> 2775: world #7;

<Blitz> 2666: world #69.

Other

Topalov won the 2005 Chess Oscar. Although he now lives in Spain, Topalov still plays for Bulgaria and has enjoyed several athletic honors from his native country, including the Sportsman of the Year award for 2005. He is renowned for his aggressive style which is exemplified in his trademark and much-feared exchange sacrifice that he has employed with great effect at all levels of play.

Sources and references:

Live rating: http://www.2700chess.com/; Wikipedia article: Topalov; Wikipedia article: World Chess Championship 2012


 page 1 of 73; games 1-25 of 1,813  PGN Download
Game  ResultMoves Year Event/LocaleOpening
1. Topalov vs D Marholev 1-021 1986 TournamentC64 Ruy Lopez, Classical
2. S De Eccher vs Topalov 0-167 1988 ForliA25 English
3. Topalov vs Meduna  ½-½21 1988 ForliD18 Queen's Gambit Declined Slav, Dutch
4. Topalov vs F Braga ½-½14 1988 10s, Forli op D19 Queen's Gambit Declined Slav, Dutch
5. Topalov vs R Mantovani 1-059 1988 ForliE12 Queen's Indian
6. Topalov vs Granda-Zuniga 0-146 1988 Forli op 88\10A78 Benoni, Classical with ...Re8 and ...Na6
7. Topalov vs G Minchev 0-154 1988 SofiaB57 Sicilian
8. Lizbov vs Topalov 0-129 1988 MoskauB92 Sicilian, Najdorf, Opocensky Variation
9. Topalov vs E Gonsior ½-½11 1988 ForliD55 Queen's Gambit Declined
10. Topalov vs V Lukov 0-127 1988 SofiaA61 Benoni
11. A Strikovic vs Topalov 0-131 1988 Forli opB22 Sicilian, Alapin
12. C Garcia Palermo vs Topalov ½-½37 1988 ForliA41 Queen's Pawn Game (with ...d6)
13. P Votruba vs Topalov ½-½66 1988 ForliB06 Robatsch
14. Topalov vs A J Norris 1-035 1989 GroningenB06 Robatsch
15. Dreev vs Topalov ½-½17 1989 Groningen (Netherlands)A52 Budapest Gambit
16. M Stangl vs Topalov 0-123 1989 Arnhem Ech-jrA88 Dutch, Leningrad, Main Variation with c6
17. Topalov vs D Agnos 1-044 1989 Ch Europe (juniors)E98 King's Indian, Orthodox, Taimanov, 9.Ne1
18. Topalov vs T Demirel 1-040 1989 GroningenD51 Queen's Gambit Declined
19. S Danailov vs Topalov 0-138 1989 Sofia ch-BGA40 Queen's Pawn Game
20. G Minchev vs Topalov 1-047 1989 SofiaA46 Queen's Pawn Game
21. Stefansson vs Topalov ½-½78 1989 ArnhemC16 French, Winawer
22. P Claesen vs Topalov  ½-½27 1989 Ch Europe (juniors)A27 English, Three Knights System
23. M Markovic vs Topalov 1-030 1989 GroningenC10 French
24. Topalov vs K Ninov  ½-½46 1989 Ch BLGD10 Queen's Gambit Declined Slav
25. Topalov vs Serper 1-040 1989 GroningenA53 Old Indian
 page 1 of 73; games 1-25 of 1,813  PGN Download
  REFINE SEARCH:   White wins (1-0) | Black wins (0-1) | Draws (1/2-1/2) | Topalov wins | Topalov loses  
 

Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 427 OF 688 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Jan-01-07  PeerGynt: <danielpi> for completeness why don't you copy/paste the text of your E-mail to these news papers. Since they mentioned your 7-th year. In Bulgaria this is an idiom that means that you wasted your first 7 years when you had to learn how to behave in the society. I am really interested what made them mention that.
Jan-01-07
Premium Chessgames Member
  acirce: <What is needed is to abolish this silly rule after Topalov gets his "rematch" with the winner of Mexico. It is impossible to do so prior as Danailov has already invoked it, although it will be impossible to schedule a Kramnik-Topalov rematch.>

It is perfectly possible to abolish the idiotic rule after Mexico. The current regulations cover the 2005-07 cycle only.

Jan-01-07  s4life: <danielpi: <s4life><It wouldn't be the first time...>

As if you knew anything.>

I was refering to your rather violent and iniquitous ramblings about grammatical mistakes..

Jan-01-07  danielpi: <s4life> I wish you'd be a bit more careful when <refering> to my humble efforts to correct the rather violent and iniquitous grammatical mistakes of certain kibitzers.

Jan-01-07  danielpi: <PeerGynt><In Bulgaria this is an idiom that means that you wasted your first 7 years when you had to learn how to behave in the society.>

Interesting. Psychologists are finding that 'personality' is formed within the first five years of life. That Bulgarians wait until a child is seven before teaching them how to behave properly certainly elucidates the Topalov situation, doesn't it?

Anyway, a closer reading of the text of that wonderful little email shows that the "reporter" at the other end wrote:

<and if you (for example) believe it is a fair way to win, you’ll have to go back through time when you were 7 years old and try a bit more to make a human being out of you.>

That is, he is not saying that I <wasted your first 7 years when you had to learn how to behave in society>. Rather, he is saying that <if you believe it is a fair way to win> THEN, evidently, I wasted my first 7 years when I had to learn how to behave in society.

But, in the interests of full disclosure, my initial letter:

<To Whom It May Concern:

I have recently read your article regarding the Topalov-Kramnik world championship chess match, and I would like to protest the obvious bias in your reporting. Your reporters seem to have misrepresented the facts to a most egregious degree, and your article does not make clear that the allegations against Kramnik have not yet been substantiated. Insulting Kramnik, (who is not a contender for Topalov's title, but rather a participant in a match to unify two titles), glossing over facts, and reporting only one (coincidentally, the Bulgarian's) side of the story is hardly professional or intellectually honest. Indeed, it stinks of propaganda.

I am categorically opposed to nationalism in any country and in any form; it is obvious that you are casting Kramnik in the worst possible light, simply because he happens to playing against a Bulgarian. One would hope that you would at least pretend objectivity. One can only regret the impression your "reporting" will have on the Bulgarian people's perception of that match; certainly, the impression your "reporting" has had on me (as a non-Bulgarian) is a decidedly negative perception of the Bulgarian media. I should hope your country is not nearly as fascist as your reportage.

In your future reports, please make some attempt at relaying the objective, verifiable facts.

Sincerely,
Daniel Pi

PS: One laments the inarticulateness, misspellings, and poor grammar in your article nearly as much as its equally egregious content. That, too, could stand some attention.>

Jan-01-07  sixfeetunder: Like Aronian says "Conflict is fun"
Jan-01-07  slomarko: hey <danielpi> to whom have you written that email?
Jan-01-07  MORPHY MARVELLOUS: Please guys leave toppy alone! I will be the first to acknowledge his short comings as a human being, but the fact is he's the only player left today that you can guarantee that will put everything on the line and play for a win. Now when kramnik won the world championship it nearly broke my heart, because our game deserves better than a player who enjoys nothing more than avoiding defeat. Now I dont want to sound like I'm a Kramnik hater, because there are alot of players like him out there, since he is the world champion I have to single him out. In the great tradition of beauty a topolov - Anand match for the world championship will fulfill the last piece of the jigsaw of my life, lets pray that it happens.
Jan-01-07  another italian tony: I'd put Judit Polgar eons ahead of Topalov when speaking of someone who puts it all on the line for a win. Sorry.
Jan-01-07  Akavall: What about Morozevich?
Jan-01-07  another italian tony: Moro as well!!!! If either Polgar or Moro would settle for draws once in a while rather than fight actually, I think their ratings would be at least 35 points higher.
Jan-01-07  JOHNNY YORK: <danielpi>

Thats another sorry thing about how people respond here, they take the most ludicrous (don,t know if I spelled that right) examples and try to prove their point.

Is Hitler not bad for what he did, What kind of Dumbas* question is that?? Hitler is not one situation, that was his entire life, that is what he thought and wanted and strived for everyday. O.J. murdering people?? Of course killing millions of people and killing two is a lot worse than complaining about someone going to the bathroom at a chess tournament.

If your going to use examples, at least use exapmles that are some what close to what we are talking about, or at least try not to use the worst examples in the world.

Jan-01-07
Premium Chessgames Member
  JointheArmy: <johnny york> You could easily ask was the 7th president of the United States a good guy? Was Thomas Jefferson a good guy for owning slaves? The authors of history are the victors of war. Your really not supposed to judge anyone, but its a natural human response which really cannot be stopped. Bad guys get painted as saints and the true good guys are never talked about.
Jan-01-07  FLCLlove: That's truly an unfair comparison. Yes, Jefferson owned slaves because it was economically advantageous. He also treated them very well in comparison to others, congrats to anyone who gets that joke, and, though hypocritically, was an abolitionist of sorts. Also, slave owning is prevalent throughout history. The same can't be said about orchestrating the murder of millions of people.

Andrew Jackson, all things considered, was not that great of a person. Though Kramnik's career is certainly not voided due to this one possible action, there is a certain amount of respect for him lost in my mind.

Jan-02-07  Whack8888: Just stepped into this, has it become known that Vladimir Kramnik owned slaves!?!
Jan-02-07  square dance: <Just stepped into this, has it become known that Vladimir Kramnik owned slaves!?!> i thought he only owned topalov.
Jan-02-07  JOHNNY YORK: <WHACK8888>, <square dance>

He owns the toilet, maybe he needs to invest in some Gas X or Mylanta

Jan-02-07  JOHNNY YORK: Here we go again, comparing someone complaining about Bathrooms and cheating to having slaves, the holocaust, and double murders. I love this site

LOL

Jan-02-07  JOHNNY YORK: I heard Kramniks found a new sponsor for his next title match

Pepto Bismol

Jan-02-07  whatthefat: Topalov too, only his is a little less PC to my mind. Apparently it's the Neo-Nazi Pro-Slavery Pro-Murder Clan.
Jan-02-07  s4life: <danielpi: <s4life> I wish you'd be a bit more careful when <refering> to my humble efforts to correct the rather violent and iniquitous grammatical mistakes of certain kibitzers.>

Humbleness is not anything in you that I was refering to... let's see if you bite this time and show your not-so-humble side.

Jan-02-07  s4life: <another italian tony: Moro as well!!!! If either Polgar or Moro would settle for draws once in a while rather than fight actually, I think their ratings would be at least 35 points higher.>

I don't think it's that easy... what Kramnik does, only few GMs can emulate, it's rather unatractive play I agree, but it shouldn't be looked down.

Jan-02-07  danielpi: <JOHNNY YORK> You seem to have missed the point. Clearly, accusing someone of cheating isn't anything close to genocide. Look, you said that people shouldn't be judged on the basis of one event. That's what you said. And so, I'm arguing by counterexample.

I'm naming all these cases where we DO judge people after one event, e.g. Courts, Hitler, OJ., and you haven't really disputed any of these cases.

You've said that CG.com isn't a court. True enough, but why should that make any difference? You don't answer. You say that the Hitler and OJ examples are extreme. So what? That's the whole point of a counterexample! I cite a case where everyone agrees because it's extreme and obvious (i.e. we can obviously judge Hitler and OJ on the basis of single events). The onus is on YOU to show how these are qualitatively different. That is, why is it that we're allowed to judge Hitler and OJ on the basis of single events, but not Topalov? You don't answer. If Kramnik DID cheat, then would we not judge him on the basis of one event? How would that be different from judging Topalov on the basis of one event in the case that Kramnik did NOT cheat? You don't answer.

Are you saying we should we not judge other people on the basis of one event- except in cases of murder? How about theft? How about rape? What about someone like Nixon? Watergate didn't kill anybody. What about Tonya Harding and Nancy Kerrigan? That was certainly one event, it didn't result in millions of deaths, and pretty much everyone agrees that it's okay to judge Tonya Harding on the basis of that one event. How is that different?

<Hitler is not one situation, that was his entire life>

Clearly you haven't read his biography. Hitler started out trying to be an artist. Nothing wrong with that. One wishes he would have kept at it. As dictator, he refused to touch funds for social programs, even when his government was otherwise bankrupt. Indeed, he was largely responsible for resuscitating Germany's economy after WW1. It's not as though everything he did was pure evil. The reason Hitler is (justifiably) loathed is because of the Holocaust. That's one event. No one hates Hitler because of his economic policies, superstitions, or artwork (well, one might justifiably hate him because of those wretched cityscapes). We hate him because of the Holocaust.

Now, you can call that a series of events- but then we get into a semantic issue- namely, what exactly is an 'event'? Is brushing one's teeth an event, or is it a series of events (put toothpaste on brush, brush uppers, brush lowers, rinse, spit)? How about tying a necktie? Typing a sentence?

At any rate, it's a bit immaterial, since this cheating nonsense certainly constitutes a series of events (public statements, refusal to shake hands, refusal to give joint press conferences, subsequent accusations of government collusion).

Before you respond, you might do well to consider the form your argument should take. You stated a proposition (i.e. you can't judge someone on the basis of one event), and I've provided counterexamples. To argue properly, you need to show why these counterexamples fail to meet the conditions for 'judging on the basis of one event'. Otherwise, you're simply wrong, since there are clearly numerous cases where people DO judge on the basis of single events.

Jan-02-07  danielpi: <s4life><Humbleness is not anything in you that I was refering to...>

If I might offer some suggestions to the royal prose, sire. The proper spelling is 'referring'. Also, one oughtn't end one's sentences with prepositions. I do hope you find the suggestions helpful, milord.

<let's see if you bite this time and show your not-so-humble side.>

Bravo. I do humbly applaud your valiant attempt to turn your obviously intentional (obviously) misspelling into an attacking maneuver. An ingenious feint, quite consistent with your everyone-is-magically-special, criticism-is-evil attitude. Honestly, I have nothing but pure and utter admiration for your ability to accept every person and every sentence, despite the faults they may have. Yur chareety iz veri nobel. I humbly, humbly, humbly applaud your very lofty wit (very lofty!).

Jan-02-07  danielpi: <JointheArmy><Isn't that the only reason you had slaves was to further your profits in farming or household chores?>

Your point is true enough. I think the point that <FLCLlove> was trying to make is that Jefferson would have been unable to compete in a slave-owning market, had he personally given up slavery. That's no excuse, but it's certainly a consideration.

For the record, Jefferson did a lot to fight slavery. He tried to ban slavery in the constitution. He freed the slaves that he owned in his will (not the noblest way to free his slaves, admittedly, but surely this counts for something). And it is true that, from what we know, Jefferson treated his slaves far more humanely than his contemporaries.

Regarding Jackson, Jefferson, and the lot of them- I think the thing to keep in mind is that, by today's standards, nearly everyone back then (i.e. pre-industrialization) was a pretty rotten person (or they would be if they weren't owned by a rotten person). To judge them, we can really only compare them with their contemporaries, in which case the two J's earn a bit more respect.

Anyway, this is rather far from the initial point, which was, namely, whether people can (or cannot) be judged on the basis of single events (the word 'event' being ambiguously defined so far).

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