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Nigel Short
Number of games in database: 2,579
Years covered: 1974 to 2016
Last FIDE rating: 2666 (2723 rapid, 2617 blitz)
Highest rating achieved in database: 2712
Overall record: +854 -421 =948 (59.7%)*
   * Overall winning percentage = (wins+draws/2) / total games
      Based on games in the database; may be incomplete.
      356 exhibition games, odds games, etc. are excluded from this statistic.

With the White pieces:
 Sicilian (524) 
    B90 B23 B40 B33 B32
 Ruy Lopez (196) 
    C84 C78 C92 C86 C77
 French Defense (145) 
    C11 C18 C10 C19 C01
 Caro-Kann (103) 
    B12 B10 B17 B11 B18
 Ruy Lopez, Closed (96) 
    C84 C92 C86 C95 C90
 Sicilian Najdorf (94) 
    B90 B92 B93 B91 B97
With the Black pieces:
 French Defense (190) 
    C05 C11 C18 C03 C02
 Ruy Lopez (136) 
    C92 C76 C69 C77 C89
 Queen's Pawn Game (105) 
    E00 A40 A46 D02 A45
 Queen's Gambit Declined (93) 
    D37 D35 D36 D31 D30
 Nimzo Indian (83) 
    E34 E21 E20 E32 E41
 Orthodox Defense (75) 
    D58 D55 D59 D54 D63
Repertoire Explorer

NOTABLE GAMES: [what is this?]
   Short vs Timman, 1991 1-0
   Short vs R Miles, 1976 1-0
   Short vs Kasparov, 1993 1-0
   Short vs Kasparov, 1993 1/2-1/2
   Short vs Gelfand, 1991 1-0
   Short vs Kasparov, 1993 1-0
   Short vs I Cheparinov, 2008 1-0
   Short vs Karpov, 1992 1-0
   M Gurevich vs Short, 1990 0-1
   Short vs B Kimber, 1975 1-0

WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS: [what is this?]
   Kasparov - Short World Championship Match (1993)
   FIDE World Championship Knockout Tournament (2001)
   FIDE World Championship Knockout Tournament (2004)

NOTABLE TOURNAMENTS: [what is this?]
   Gibraltar Masters (2004)
   Commonwealth Championship (2008)
   Commonwealth and South African Open (2011)
   British Championships (2011)
   Tradewise Gibraltar (2013)
   Howard Staunton Memorial (Scheveningen Match) (2009)
   Edmonton International (2012)
   Tradewise Gibraltar (2012)
   PokerStars IoM Masters (2014)
   Bangkok Chess Club Open (2015)
   Tradewise Gibraltar (2011)
   11th BCC Thailand Open (2011)
   Biel Interzonal (1985)
   Manila Interzonal (1990)
   Olympiad (2008)

GAME COLLECTIONS: [what is this?]
   Match Short! by amadeus
   Biel Interzonal 1985 by suenteus po 147
   Would Like to Study these games by FLAWLESSWIN64
   Brussels Blitz 1987 by KingG
   Belfort World Cup 1988 by suenteus po 147
   Rotterdam World Cup 1989 by suenteus po 147
   Skelleftea World Cup 1989 by suenteus po 147
   Tilburg Interpolis 1990 by suenteus po 147

   Short vs C Cruz (Sep-13-16) 1/2-1/2
   E Safarli vs Short (Sep-12-16) 0-1
   S P Sethuraman vs Short (Sep-10-16) 1-0
   Li Chao vs Short (Sep-09-16) 0-1
   Short vs M Perez Gormaz (Sep-08-16) 1/2-1/2

Search Sacrifice Explorer for Nigel Short
Search Google for Nigel Short
FIDE player card for Nigel Short

(born Jun-01-1965, 51 years old) United Kingdom

[what is this?]
IM (1979); GM (1984); British Champion (1984, 1987, 1998); English Champion (1991); European Union Champion (2001); Commonwealth Champion (2006 & 2008); Candidate (1985, 1988, 1991, 1994 (PCA)); World Championship Challenger (PCA) (1993).


Nigel David Short was born in Leigh in Lancashire, the second son of Jean and David Short. A bona fide chess prodigy, Short defeated Viktor Korchnoi in a simul at the age of 10 and was the youngest ever qualifier for the British Championships at the age of 11. When he earned his International Master title at the age of 14, he was at that time the youngest ever to earn that title. When he won the Grandmaster title at the age of 19, he was the youngest GM in the world at the time. He subsequently rose to dominate English chess in the 80s and 90s following in the wake of Anthony Miles, culminating in a challenge for the World Championship in 1993.


<Youth> Short was =1st in the World U16 Youth Championship held in Belfort in 1979.

<Junior> He participated in four World Junior Championships from 1980 to 1983. He achieved his best result during his first attempt in which he placed second to Garry Kasparov in 1980 at Dortmund.

<National> In 1977 he became the youngest ever participant in the British Chess Championship by qualifying three days before his twelfth birthday. When Nigel was 14, he tied for 1st place in the British Championship of 1979 with John Nunn and Robert Bellin, earning his first IM norm. Short won the British Chess Championship in 1984, 1987, and 1998, and the English Championship in 1991. He came =1st in the British Championships (2011) at the age of 46, but lost the tie breaker to Michael Adams.

<Commonwealth and Continental> He won the Commonwealth Championships in 2004 (7.5/9) and 2006 (9/10), the Commonwealth Championship (2008) (9.5/11) and came =1st in the Commonwealth and South African Open (2011) (7.5/9). He scored 7.5/13 in the 2nd European Individual Championship held in Ohrid in the FYROM in 2001, won the European Union Individual Championships (2006) held in Liverpool with 7.5/10, and took a share of second place in the European Individual Championship (2008).

<World> Short qualified to play in the Biel Interzonal when he placed =1st alongside Jonathan Speelman in European Zonal 1A held in Brighton in December 1984. Subsequently, in July 1985, he placed =4th at the Biel Interzonal with 10.5/18 (+6 =9 -2), holding off John van der Wiel and Eugenio Torre in a play off for the fourth qualifying position to the Montpellier Candidates, thereby becoming Britain's first-ever candidate. Short did not win through to the semi-final Candidate Matches from the preliminary Candidates Tournament, scoring 7/15 to finish in equal tenth place, and exited the World Championship challenge at this stage. However, his participation in the Montpellier Candidates Tournament qualified Short to compete in the 1987 Subotica Interzonal in which he scored 10.5/16 to place equal first with Speelman and Gyula Sax. In the preliminary match held in Saint John in Canada in 1988, Short defeated Sax (+2=3), but then lost by 3.5-1.5 (−2=3) to Speelman in London later that year. This cycle was the last full undisputed FIDE controlled World Championship cycle until the Kramnik - Topalov World Championship Match (2006) Unification Match. During the next World Championship cycle, a last round victory over Mikhail Gurevich enabled Short to finish equal third with Viswanathan Anand, behind Vassily Ivanchuk and Boris Gelfand at the Manila Interzonal in July 1990, thereby qualifying as a Candidate for the third successive time.

In London in February 1991, he bested Speelman in the tiebreaker by 1.5-0.5 after drawing the preliminary best-of-8 match 4-4 (+2 =4 -2). He then proceeded to defeat Gelfand (+4=2–2) in the best-of-8 quarter final match played in Brussels in August 1991, and then overcame the former World Champion Anatoly Karpov by 6-4 (+4=4–2) in the best-of-10 semi-final match played in Linares in April 1992. In the best-of-14 match final held in San Lorenzo de El Escorial in January 1993, Short defeated Dutchman Jan Timman by 7.5-5.5 (+5=5–3) to earn the right to meet defending World Champion Garry Kasparov, who had successfully defended his crown three times against Karpov. According to Short and Kasparov, FIDE President Florencio Campomanes breached FIDE rules by deciding to stage the match in Manchester and to determine the prize fund without consulting them. Short and Kasparov responded by forming the Professional Chess Association (PCA) and the resulting match—sponsored by The Times newspaper—was held under the auspices of the PCA in London, from September to October 1993. Kasparov won by 12.5-7.5 (+6−1=13) in the best-of-24 match, the largest margin of victory in a world title contest since the Tal - Botvinnik World Championship Return Match (1961).

Short’s next attempt at the title remained under the auspices of the PCA. Qualifying directly for the PCA Candidates match by virtue of being the losing challenger in the match against Kasparov, Short tied 4-4 (+1 =6 -1) with Boris Gulko in the best-of-8 quarterfinal match held at the Trump Tower in New York City in July 1994, before winning 1.5-0.5 in the classically-timed tiebreaker. He then bowed out to Gata Kamsky 5.5-1.5 (+1 =1 -5) in the best-of-10 quarter final match held at the same venue. Rejoining the FIDE cycle, Short competed in its 1997 Knockout contest to determine the challenger to Karpov, the winner of the last FIDE cycle. He defeated Korchnoi 3.5-2.5 in round 2 (into which he had been directly seeded), Andrei Sokolov 2-0 in round 3, Alexander Beliavsky 3-1 in round 4 and Michal Krasenkow 2-0 in the quarter final before losing to Adams in the semi-final 4-3 in the sudden death tiebreaker. In the 1999 FIDE Knockout contest for the World Championship, Short, again seeded directly into round 2, beat Daniel Fridman 1.5-0.5, Beliavsky in round 3 by 1.5-0.5, before succumbing to Alexey Shirov by 1.5-0.5 in round 4. In the 2000 event, Short was unexpectedly beaten 3.5-2.5 in the tiebreaker of round 2, where he had been directly seeded, by Frenchmen Igor Alexandre Nataf. In the FIDE World Championship Knockout Tournament (2001), Short was knocked out of the competition in round 1 when he was again unexpectedly defeated 1.5-0.5 by Argentinian GM Daniel Hugo Campora. In FIDE World Championship Knockout Tournament (2004), Short defeated Yemeni IM Hameed Mansour Ali Kadhi 2-0 in round 1, but lost in the 2nd round to Krasenkow 1.5-0.5. Short did not contest the FIDE World Cup (2005) but participated in the World Chess Cup (2007) where he was defeated in the first round tiebreaker by David Baramidze, the last time Short contested the World Championship cycle.

Classical Tournaments

Short became the then youngest International Master in chess history, by scoring 8/15 in the Hastings Premier in 1979/80. He has finished outright first, or tied for first, in many international tournaments including Geneva (1979), the BBC Master Game (1981), Amsterdam OHRA (1982), Baku (1983), Esbjerg (1984), Wijk aan Zee (1986 and 1987), Reykjavík (1987), Amsterdam VSB (1988, 1991, 1992, and 1993), Hastings (1987/88 and 1988/89), Pärnu (1996), Groningen (1996), Tallinn/Pärnu (1998), Dhaka United Insurance (1999), Shymkent (1999), Pamplona (1999/2000), the Tan Chin Nam Cup in Beijing (2000), Sigeman and Co. Malmö (2002), Gibraltar (2003), Gibraltar Masters (2004), Hunguest Hotels Super Chess Tournament (2003), Samba Cup (2003), Skanderborg (2003), Taiyuan (2004), Politiken Cup (2006), Baku 2008, Bazna King's Tournament (2008), Sigeman & Co (2009), 11th BCC Thailand Open (2011), Thailand Open 2012 and Luanda (2011). In 2012, he came =1st with Women's World Champion Yifan Hou at Tradewise Gibraltar (2012) but won the blitz tiebreak match to take first prize. He then won the 12th Bangkok Open (2012) with a score of 8/9 and came equal 1st with Adams in the unrated Bunratty Masters (2012); however he lost to Adams in the tiebreak. Another good result was =2nd at Corus Group B (2009) after losing the last round game to Fabiano Caruana, who won the event by half a point. In July 2012, Short won the Edmonton International (2012) outright with 7/9 (+6 -1 =2).

In January 2013, Short again appeared on the leader board at Gibraltar, placing =1st with a score of 8/10 alongside with Maxime Vachier-Lagrave, Chanda Sandipan and Nikita Vitiugov at the Tradewise Gibraltar (2013). This time the tiebreak was a knockout blitz contest between the four players, the Tradewise Gibraltar (Tiebreaks) (2013); Short eliminated Vachier-Lagrave 1.5-0.5, and then lost to Vitiugov in an epic 2-game mini match to become runner-up in the event. A few months later in April 2013, Short participated in the 13th Bangkok Chess Club Open, placing =8th (11th on tiebreak) with a score of 6.5/9 and shedding 12 ratings points. The following month in May 2013, Short came =1st (2nd on tiebreak behind Richard Rapport), with 4.5/7 at the category 15 21st Sigeman & Co (2013) in Sweden and then in June 2013 he won with 6/6 at the Tanzanian Open and came 2nd behind Lazaro Bruzon Batista in the 8th Edmonton International (2013). In July 2013, he won the Canadian Open with 7.5/9 and in October 2013 he placed =2nd (3rd on tiebreak) alongside Alexander Moiseenko at the Indonesian Open after defeating him in the final round, a point behind the outright winner, Alexey Dreev.

In October 2014, Short returned to form after a prolonged slump during which he briefly left the world's top 100. At the Isle of Man, he won the PokerStars IoM Masters (2014) with 7.5/9, a clear point ahead of a strong field that included runners-up Laurent Fressinet, Sergei Tiviakov, David Howell (whom he defeated in the final round to clinch first prize) and Gil Popilski as well as lower placed super-GMs such as countryman Adams and others such as world #13 Maxime Vachier-Lagrave and Armenian #2 Gabriel Sargissian. Short also returned to the world's top 100 in the November 2014 FIDE rating list. In November 2014, Short travelled to Burma to win the GM Zaw Win Lay Memorial International Open with 6.5/8. A few months later in April 2015, Short won the Bangkok Chess Club Open (2015) with 7.5/9, on tiebreak, ahead of co-leader Surya Shekhar Ganguly. In July 2015, he won the South African Open with 9/11, after the tiebreak placed him ahead of fellow co-leaders Aleksa Strikovic and Abhijit Kunte.

Team play

<Club tournaments> Short’s inaugural experience in the European Club Cup was in 1988, playing for SG Solingen (Germany) which came 4th that year. He again played for that club in 1990 and 1992 winning team gold and bronze respectively. He played top board for Peristeri Athens in 1996, and board 4 in 1999 for the silver-medal winning team Agrouniverzal Zemun (Yugoslavia) that also contained Anand, Kramnik and Gelfand. In 2004, he won individual and team silver playing on board 2 for ŠK Bosna Sarajevo and again played for that team in 2007, playing board 5. He has played a total of 37 games during this period of participation in the European Club Cup, scoring +12 =21 -4 for a winning percentage of 60.8%.

<Team championships> Short played top board for the England team in the First World U16 Team Chess Championship held in Viborg in 1979, winning individual gold and leading his team to victory to take team gold. The 14 year-old won six games and drew one, pulling a performance rating of 2632 while his FIDE rating was 2210. He then went on to participate in the European and World Team Championships. His first taste of playing in the European Team Championships came in 1983 when 18 year-old IM Short played board 7 in the event held in Plovdiv, winning individual silver while his team came fourth. He played board one in 1992, 1997 and 1999, winning team and individual bronze medals in 1992 during the Debrecen event, and an individual gold in 1997 in Pula. He again played for England in 2001, 2011 and 2013, playing second board in 2001 and 2011, and board 3 in 2013.

Still playing for England during the World Team Championships of 1985 (on board 4), 1989 (board 1) and 1997 (board 1), each of which were played in Lucerne in Switzerland, he won individual silver in 1989 and two team bronzes in 1985 and 1989.

Short scored 8/10 in the Howard Staunton Memorial (Scheveningen Match) (2009) played between the United Kingdom and the Netherlands to help his team win the contest. He also won the Queens and Kings Match (2003) with his team mate Zhao Xue.

He also played top board for London in the World Cities Team Championship (2012) held in December 2012 in Al Ain in the United Arab Emirates. Despite his personal tally of two wins and a draw, London failed to make the cut to the round of 16.

Short has also participated in the Spanish Teams Championship, the French Top 16 League, the Bosnia and Herzegovina Team Championships, the Attica team Championship in Greece, the Chinese Premier League, and in the 4 Nations Chess League held in the UK. In 2013 and 2014, he helped his team Guildford 1 win the 4NCL. He is again playing for Guildford 1 in 2015.

<Olympiads> Short has represented England at every Olympiad since 1984, winning individual gold in Dubai in 1986, three team silvers (Thessaloniki 1984, Dubai 1986 and Thessaloniki 1988) and a team bronze medal (Novi Sad 1990). In his first appearance at the Thessaloniki Olympiad in 1984, Short played 2nd reserve for the silver medal-winning England team. In 1986, he played board 3, winning individual gold and team silver. He played top board for his country from 1988 until 1996, and board 2 from 1998 until 2010. He played his 15th consecutive Olympiad in Istanbul at the Chess Olympiad (2012) in August-September 2012, scoring 7.5/10 and placing 5th on board 3 overall and lifting his rating back into the 2700 group. He also played board 3 for England at the Chess Olympiad (2014).


Short has enjoyed considerable success as a match player outside of the World Championship cycle, defeating US Champion Lev Alburt in Foxboro in 1985 by 7–1 (+6=2), Utut Adianto 4.5-1.5 (+3=3) in Jakarta in 1995, Etienne Bacrot in Albert in 2000 by 4-2 (+3=2–1), Hannes Stefansson in Reykjavík in 2002 by 4.5-1.5 (+4=1–1), Ehsan Ghaem Maghami in Tehran in 2003 by 4-2 (+2=4) and won by 3.5-2.5 (+2=3–1) in the Short - Efimenko Match (2009) held in Mukachevo in 2009. Short lost to Joel Benjamin by 2.5–1.5 at London 1983, drew with Eugenio Torre 3-3 (+1=4–1) in Manila 1988, drew with Timman (3–3) in an exhibition match at Hilversum in 1989 and drew with Anish Giri in Amsterdam in 2010 by 2-2 (+1 =2 -1). The younger generation prevailed in the Karjakin - Short Rapid match (2008) by 7.5-2.5 (Short: +2 -7 =1) played in Kiev. He narrowly lost the Kasparov - Short Blitz Match (2011) played in Belgium by 4.5-3.5 when he lost the final game. In 2012, he won the Short - Granda Match (2012) by 3.5-2.5 (+2 =2) in a rapid game exhibition match played in Lima, Peru.


Short took first place at the Estonian Pühajärve 13. kiirmaleturniir (13th Sacred Lake Rapid Chess Tournament) in November 2012, scoring 28.5/31, 4 points clear of 2nd placed 7 times Estonian Champion GM Kaido Kulaots. In November 2014, he placed 2nd at the BCC November 2014 Blitz behind FYROM's Riste Menkinoski. In December 2014 he placed =3rd at the London Chess Classic 2014 Super Rapidplay Open with 8/10.

Ratings and rankings

Nigel Short has been in the world's top 100 for most of his life. He entered the top 100 in January 1983, and after briefly exiting the list in July 1983, re-entered the top 100 in January 1984, remaining there until September 2014 and October 2014, before his second re-entry to the top 100 elite in November 2014. He was in the top ten for most of the period from July 1986 until January 1997. His peak ranking was 3rd behind Karpov and Kasparov from July 1988 to July 1989 inclusive. His highest rating numerically was 2712 in April 2004 (when he was ranked 15th in the world)*.

He is also the oldest player in the top 100.

Other achievements and activities

Short has written chess columns and book reviews for the British newspapers The Sunday Times, The Daily Telegraph, the Daily Mail, The Spectator and The Guardian. He reported on the FIDE World Championship Tournament (2005) in San Luis, Argentina, for the ChessBase website**. He began a new column "Short Stories" for New in Chess magazine in January 2011. He has coached Pentala Harikrishna, Sergey Karjakin, David Howell and Parimarjan Negi. He worked as national coach of the Islamic Republic of Iran from 2006–2007. His first assignment led to them unexpectedly capturing a team bronze medal at the Asian Games in Doha, Qatar, in 2006. In the nine chess events at the Asian Indoor Games in Macau 2007, Iran took a silver and two bronze medals. He has also been on numerous webcasts, a guest commentator with, and a live commentator for the World Championship Candidates (2013). He is also a member of using his own name as his userid: User: Nigel Short. In recognition of his chess accomplishments, Short was appointed MBE (Member of the British Empire)*** in 1999. He was made an Honorary Fellow of the then Bolton Institute of Higher Education in 1993 and was awarded the Honorary degree of Doctor of Science by the University of Bolton in 2010. In August 2005, he was unanimously elected Secretary General of the Commonwealth Chess Association. In June 2006 he became its President, until stepping down in January 2008. Finally, he has won tournaments in 29 different countries.****


He lives in Greece with his wife Rhea Argyro Karageorgiou and their two children.


World Championship Index: live rating:; Nigel Short Turns 40:; FIDE database:; The Encyclopedia of Team Chess:; * Historical ratings and rankings:; ** The first chessbase article is: with the other rounds reported by Short included round by round at the following link: *** MBE: Wikipedia article: Order of the British Empire ****

Wikipedia article: Nigel Short

Last updated 14 July 2015

 page 1 of 104; games 1-25 of 2,600  PGN Download
Game  ResultMoves Year Event/LocaleOpening
1. Short vs H Wright 1-030 1974 AthertonC30 King's Gambit Declined
2. Portisch vs Short ½-½37 1975 Simultaneous exhibitionB30 Sicilian
3. C Frostick vs Short  0-116 1975 SCCU Junior Championships U-14C18 French, Winawer
4. Short vs I D Wells 1-032 1975 Morecambe jrD78 Neo-Grunfeld, 6.O-O c6
5. Short vs J Cox 1-021 1975 LondonB07 Pirc
6. Short vs J Evans  1-072 1975 Staffordshire opB01 Scandinavian
7. Short vs B Kimber 1-017 1975 ENGC61 Ruy Lopez, Bird's Defense
8. S J Hooker vs Short 0-125 1975 Enfield OpenC18 French, Winawer
9. Short vs P Fenton 1-040 1975 SCCU Junior Championships U-14C78 Ruy Lopez
10. Hambrook vs Short 0-121 1976 ENGC17 French, Winawer, Advance
11. Short vs G Knapton 1-015 1976 Lancashire vs Durham County MatchC77 Ruy Lopez
12. Short vs M Macdonald-Ross 1-027 1976 Charlton OpenC12 French, McCutcheon
13. Miles vs Short 1-038 1976 Charlton OpenA44 Old Benoni Defense
14. Short vs Joel Benjamin 1-044 1976 London txB41 Sicilian, Kan
15. Short vs J T Farrand 1-022 1976 ManchesterD07 Queen's Gambit Declined, Chigorin Defense
16. Short vs Hartston 0-119 1976 BBC TV Master GameA32 English, Symmetrical Variation
17. Short vs R Miles 1-025 1976 LondonB07 Pirc
18. Korchnoi vs Short 0-147 1976 London smC05 French, Tarrasch
19. Short vs K James  1-042 1976 Dundrum International openB22 Sicilian, Alapin
20. Short vs N Littlewood 1-022 1977 ManchesterB06 Robatsch
21. Short vs M Fuller 1-020 1977 London, EnglandB30 Sicilian
22. Short vs Karpov 0-159 1977 London smB21 Sicilian, 2.f4 and 2.d4
23. Short vs J Penrose 1-041 1977 ENGB40 Sicilian
24. Short vs Flear 1-020 1977 BrightonC77 Ruy Lopez
25. B Cafferty vs Short  1-031 1977 BrightonA30 English, Symmetrical
 page 1 of 104; games 1-25 of 2,600  PGN Download
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Greatest Hits Vol 1

Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 203 OF 419 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Sep-27-08  badest: <rogge> LOL! I guess living there 40+ years does that to you. ;)
Sep-27-08  angslo: <badest: <rogge> Haha ... you are funny! The US is an *exception* and N. Korea and Burma are the "norm" for communist countries ... :D

Try China? Or why not the Scandinavian countries... you get pretty close to functioning communism there (or a mixture between socialism/communism).>

see the article whose link i posted above which clearly explains that USA and other European countries are clearly capitalist as fars as businees or means of production are concerned.

and China , Brazil , India got economic growth only by following that model.

Hence, the point made by Short that communism leads to penury (China and Brazil too followed capitalism model for economic growth).

USA and European countries are socialist in the sense of being welfarist states

basically the same thing <badest> which u r saying - a hybrid of socialism and capitalism.

<rogge> seems to be saying the same thing . To me , it looks like we are all in agreement if observed closely :)

Premium Chessgames Member
  rogge: <badest>, you want the final words? Try again (you'll get it).

Norway and Denmark - The Communist NATO countries.

(Norway and Denmark are Scandinavian countries) :)

<angslo>, sharp observation, as always :)

Sep-27-08  badest: <rogge: <badest>, you want the final words? Try again (you'll get it).

Norway and Denmark - The Communist NATO countries.> Now, you're talking ;) No, my examples are really from Sweden... so generalizing for all of Scandinavia is of course wrong...

<angslo> nice article...

Sep-27-08  Ziggurat: <badest> And in what sense has Sweden ever been "communist"?
Sep-27-08  Red October: < Ziggurat: <badest> And in what sense has Sweden ever been "communist"? > no doubt because <acirce> is a communist :)
Premium Chessgames Member
  rogge: Btw, <Red October>, you're right. Many large multinational corporations have a lot to answer for.
Sep-27-08  Cactus: <Red October> What people don't realise, is that true communism <has> been tried, though not by developed countries. Many native groups of North America tried it, as well as many others. Perhaps it's possible to say that some religious groups try it today, such as the Amish.
Sep-27-08  Jole: Communism fails because it cannot produce agents of communism.
Sep-27-08  Jole: Cactus: I believe that when people here are talking about communism, they are talking, with varying levels of precision, about marxist communism. Using the pre-marxist and broader usage of the word communism does lead to more examples, but it is different to marxist communism.
Sep-27-08  badest: <Ziggurat: <badest> And in what sense has Sweden ever been "communist"?> Well, "pseudo-communist" in any case.

<Red October: < Ziggurat: <badest> And in what sense has Sweden ever been "communist"? > no doubt because <acirce> is a communist :)> Spot on! (acirce is a communist, his friends are commies, their friends are all commies... --> all Swedes are commies ;)

Premium Chessgames Member
  valiant: <And in what sense has Sweden ever been "communist"?>

I would guess on 'allemansrätten', a law that makes it permissible for anyone to walk and camp almost anywhere because landowners are not permitted to barricade their estates or chase people away. Also Karl-Bertil Jonssons Christmas mission...

Premium Chessgames Member
  Nigel Short: One observes that you have pointedly refused to answer my questions about Korea and Germany <Red October>. Please just give me a response before you try to change the subject.
Sep-27-08  Red October: <GM Short> <of course you can argue that the world has never been free or fair and that the western economies were freer than their so-called <Communist> counter parts and you would be right, they were, but it still does not address the root of the problem

> I think you overlooked this part of my post

Sep-27-08  Red October: and if that was not clear

West Germany was freer and fairer, South Korea is freer and fairer, so how does that equate me to a creationist or a flat earther ?

but that has nothing to do with whether Communism is a failed idealogy

rather greed is a failed idealogy but somehow greed is covered up in political and economic policies which is the main problem today

Sep-27-08  frogbert: <Well, "pseudo-communist" in any case.>

sweden?!? in which areas?

compared to norway (where i live), it seems that sweden almost always is the faster one of the two to pick up new things from the united states - both in the private and public sector, and at the time one has found out which things don't work, we decide to try out the non-working stuff in norway too ;o) [ok, maybe the latter experience often is from areas like under-graduate education and other mostly public areas...]

but seriously, wrt economy and also lots of "ideological areas" (if we for a moment pretend that ideologies aren't dead), the main inspiration in scandinavia is the united states and typically "western" thinking. but the capitalism is less extreme here - and the focus on <general> welfare is higher, which can be seen on the tax level here compared to the us.

this can be regarded "socialist" in a sense, where the state is responsible for a bigger part of the basic "services" in the society, like <health care> (free hospitals in norway), <education> (free education, also in universities - meaning there is basically no tuition, but one has to pay for housing and study materials; in fact, in denmark the state covers even more of the total cost of higher education), <social benefits> for people out of work (for various reasons) and <pensions> and resting homes for the elderly.

but even if we have the classical division between "left" (socialism) and "right" (capitalism) in norwegian politics, the number of political parties and their distribution quite closely around the "center", makes for <very small real differencies> between poltical parties (and people) regarding which and how many tasks the "state" should be responsible for. "welfare" is broadly agreed upon, and there are relatively few very rich and very poor people, but we have both billionaires and people living on the street (the latter more or less by their own "choice", though).

but the means to support this system economically is basically based on capitalism, and the dominating "philosophy" that guides legislation and other formal and informal "rule-making" processes, are based on individual freedom and liberalism. in general, individualism - the individual's rights, and right to make his/her own choices - is pre-dominant over group-thinking in almost any field in our society.

how scandinavian countries can be used as examples of semi-communism (or being heavily inspired by it, as <badest> sort of suggests), is quite beyond me, even taking the "capitalism-sponsored" welfare into consideration. and while my experience obviously is from norway, the differences aren't really big with how things are in sweden or denmark, either. sweden, a pseudo-communist country? a hilarious thought. :o)

Sep-27-08  frogbert: <rather greed is a failed idealogy>

"greed" is no ideology, but in some perspective it's one of several human characteristics that realistic ideologies need to take into account, in order to be implementable.

as always, this kind of discussions involuntarily boils down to what kind of view one has on humans - the extreme viewpoints being a) basically driven by altruism, or b) basically driven by egoism. for some, this translates to "good" or "bad", but fortunately things aren't that simple.

of course, any extreme viewpoint about "human's nature" is bound to be wrong (imho), but ideologies need to take a realistic view on human nature - whatever that is - in order to have any future. if one disregards that aspect, one is left with worthless theory, and then it doesn't matter how beautiful that theory looks, on the sketchboard.

Sep-27-08  Red October: there is a difference between greed and ambition
Premium Chessgames Member
  Jim Bartle: --"greed" is no ideology, but in some perspective it's one of several human characteristics that realistic ideologies need to take into account, in order to be implementable.--

Good point.

A little off the topic here, but I find it hilarious when people (such as Bush and McCain) blame the economic crisis in the US on those greedy Wall St. bastards. Of course they're going to be greedy! But it's Bush, McCain, Gramm etc. who took away the regulation.

If all a bank's money is stolen from the vault, after the guards were fired and the vault left unlocked, wouldn't the people who made those decisions bear some of the responsibility?

Sep-27-08  Red October: <who took away the regulation.> exactly my point, in true laissez faire economics you have next to no regulation of any business and price is supposed to be left to the market forces, this is unrealistic as it does not factor in the likelihood of human greed interfering in market forces. Very rarely does supply and demand operate freely

the failed ideology is that of the people who think the market will sort itself out, it wont, it will only find someone else to prey on

of course such ideologies are convenient as it feeds their greed

Sep-27-08  frogbert: <there is a difference between greed and ambition>

that's a given, of course, even if they're somewhat related. most people can claim personal knowledge about both of those, but i must admit that i on average hear people's greed talking more often than i hear their ambitions talking. also, most "ambitions" seem to be about personal/individual success, in general having few altruistic drivers.

the mix between the two is kind of irrelevant, though - both characteristics must be taken into account. in general, <all important> human characteristics must be considered.

Sep-27-08  frogbert: red october, for the record, i don't believe in neither extreme liberalism nor extreme capitalism. i also believe several of the strong points of the western democracy aren't as tightly linked to the effects of capitalism as many liberal right-wingers often proclaim. :o)
Sep-27-08  Red October: <frogbert> i think we have some common ground then, but many here judge a person by the avtaar :)
Premium Chessgames Member
  Nigel Short: <Red October> "many here judge a person by the avtaar" (sic). If you were to use a Nazi swastika as your avatar, you should not feign surprise if many people think you a Nazi. It is no different for someone using the symbol of communism, a likewise loathed and discredited creed.
Sep-27-08  Zygalski: Dear Nigel,

Now is possibly not the best time to bang-on about the virtues of Capitalism & the free market, seeing as though GWB is looking to Nationalise $7 trillion worth of bad US debt in one of the biggest interventionist U-turns in history.

It seems Capitalism is fine, providing you have the mop & bucket of Socialism to tidy up when things get messy...

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