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Nigel Short
Number of games in database: 2,605
Years covered: 1974 to 2016
Last FIDE rating: 2670 (2723 rapid, 2617 blitz)
Highest rating achieved in database: 2712
Overall record: +856 -421 =951 (59.8%)*
   * Overall winning percentage = (wins+draws/2) / total games
      Based on games in the database; may be incomplete.
      377 exhibition games, odds games, etc. are excluded from this statistic.

With the White pieces:
 Sicilian (526) 
    B90 B23 B40 B33 B81
 Ruy Lopez (196) 
    C84 C92 C78 C86 C77
 French Defense (145) 
    C11 C18 C10 C19 C01
 Caro-Kann (104) 
    B12 B10 B17 B11 B18
 Ruy Lopez, Closed (96) 
    C84 C92 C86 C95 C90
 Sicilian Najdorf (94) 
    B90 B92 B93 B97 B91
With the Black pieces:
 French Defense (194) 
    C05 C11 C18 C03 C02
 Ruy Lopez (136) 
    C92 C69 C76 C77 C89
 Queen's Pawn Game (106) 
    E00 A40 A46 D02 A45
 Queen's Gambit Declined (93) 
    D37 D35 D36 D31 D30
 Nimzo Indian (83) 
    E34 E32 E20 E21 E41
 French Tarrasch (76) 
    C05 C03 C07 C09 C04
Repertoire Explorer

NOTABLE GAMES: [what is this?]
   Short vs Timman, 1991 1-0
   Short vs R Miles, 1976 1-0
   Short vs Kasparov, 1993 1-0
   Short vs Kasparov, 1993 1/2-1/2
   Short vs Gelfand, 1991 1-0
   Short vs Kasparov, 1993 1-0
   Short vs I Cheparinov, 2008 1-0
   Short vs Karpov, 1992 1-0
   M Gurevich vs Short, 1990 0-1
   Short vs B Kimber, 1975 1-0

WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS: [what is this?]
   Kasparov - Short World Championship Match (1993)
   FIDE World Championship Knockout Tournament (2001)
   FIDE World Championship Knockout Tournament (2004)

NOTABLE TOURNAMENTS: [what is this?]
   Commonwealth Championship (2008)
   Edmonton International (2012)
   Gibraltar Masters (2004)
   British Championships (2011)
   Howard Staunton Memorial (Scheveningen Match) (2009)
   Tradewise Gibraltar (2012)
   Tradewise Gibraltar (2013)
   PokerStars IoM Masters (2014)
   Tradewise Gibraltar (2011)
   Bangkok Chess Club Open (2015)
   Commonwealth and South African Open (2011)
   11th BCC Thailand Open (2011)
   Biel Interzonal (1985)
   Manila Interzonal (1990)
   Olympiad (2008)

GAME COLLECTIONS: [what is this?]
   Match Short! by amadeus
   Biel Interzonal 1985 by suenteus po 147
   Would Like to Study these games by FLAWLESSWIN64
   Brussels Blitz 1987 by KingG
   Belfort World Cup 1988 by suenteus po 147
   Skelleftea World Cup 1989 by suenteus po 147
   Rotterdam World Cup 1989 by suenteus po 147
   Tilburg Interpolis 1990 by suenteus po 147

   Yifan Hou vs Short (Oct-22-16) 1-0
   Short vs Yifan Hou (Oct-21-16) 1/2-1/2
   Yifan Hou vs Short (Oct-20-16) 0-1
   Short vs Yifan Hou (Oct-18-16) 1-0
   Yifan Hou vs Short (Oct-17-16) 1/2-1/2

Search Sacrifice Explorer for Nigel Short
Search Google for Nigel Short
FIDE player card for Nigel Short

(born Jun-01-1965, 51 years old) United Kingdom

[what is this?]
IM (1979); GM (1984); British Champion (1984, 1987, 1998); English Champion (1991); European Union Champion (2001); Commonwealth Champion (2006 & 2008); Candidate (1985, 1988, 1991, 1994 (PCA)); World Championship Challenger (PCA) (1993).


Nigel David Short was born in Leigh in Lancashire, the second son of Jean and David Short. A bona fide chess prodigy, Short defeated Viktor Korchnoi in a simul at the age of 10 and was the youngest ever qualifier for the British Championships at the age of 11. When he earned his International Master title at the age of 14, he was at that time the youngest ever to earn that title. When he won the Grandmaster title at the age of 19, he was the youngest GM in the world at the time. He subsequently rose to dominate English chess in the 80s and 90s following in the wake of Anthony Miles, culminating in a challenge for the World Championship in 1993.


<Youth> Short was =1st in the World U16 Youth Championship held in Belfort in 1979.

<Junior> He participated in four World Junior Championships from 1980 to 1983. He achieved his best result during his first attempt in which he placed second to Garry Kasparov in 1980 at Dortmund.

<National> In 1977 he became the youngest ever participant in the British Chess Championship by qualifying three days before his twelfth birthday. When Nigel was 14, he tied for 1st place in the British Championship of 1979 with John Nunn and Robert Bellin, earning his first IM norm. Short won the British Chess Championship in 1984, 1987, and 1998, and the English Championship in 1991. He came =1st in the British Championships (2011) at the age of 46, but lost the tie breaker to Michael Adams.

<Commonwealth and Continental> He won the Commonwealth Championships in 2004 (7.5/9) and 2006 (9/10), the Commonwealth Championship (2008) (9.5/11) and came =1st in the Commonwealth and South African Open (2011) (7.5/9). He scored 7.5/13 in the 2nd European Individual Championship held in Ohrid in the FYROM in 2001, won the European Union Individual Championships (2006) held in Liverpool with 7.5/10, and took a share of second place in the European Individual Championship (2008).

<World> Short qualified to play in the Biel Interzonal when he placed =1st alongside Jonathan Speelman in European Zonal 1A held in Brighton in December 1984. Subsequently, in July 1985, he placed =4th at the Biel Interzonal with 10.5/18 (+6 =9 -2), holding off John van der Wiel and Eugenio Torre in a play off for the fourth qualifying position to the Montpellier Candidates, thereby becoming Britain's first-ever candidate. Short did not win through to the semi-final Candidate Matches from the preliminary Candidates Tournament, scoring 7/15 to finish in equal tenth place, and exited the World Championship challenge at this stage. However, his participation in the Montpellier Candidates Tournament qualified Short to compete in the 1987 Subotica Interzonal in which he scored 10.5/16 to place equal first with Speelman and Gyula Sax. In the preliminary match held in Saint John in Canada in 1988, Short defeated Sax (+2=3), but then lost by 3.5-1.5 (−2=3) to Speelman in London later that year. This cycle was the last full undisputed FIDE controlled World Championship cycle until the Kramnik - Topalov World Championship Match (2006) Unification Match. During the next World Championship cycle, a last round victory over Mikhail Gurevich enabled Short to finish equal third with Viswanathan Anand, behind Vassily Ivanchuk and Boris Gelfand at the Manila Interzonal in July 1990, thereby qualifying as a Candidate for the third successive time.

In London in February 1991, he bested Speelman in the tiebreaker by 1.5-0.5 after drawing the preliminary best-of-8 match 4-4 (+2 =4 -2). He then proceeded to defeat Gelfand (+4=2–2) in the best-of-8 quarter final match played in Brussels in August 1991, and then overcame the former World Champion Anatoly Karpov by 6-4 (+4=4–2) in the best-of-10 semi-final match played in Linares in April 1992. In the best-of-14 match final held in San Lorenzo de El Escorial in January 1993, Short defeated Dutchman Jan Timman by 7.5-5.5 (+5=5–3) to earn the right to meet defending World Champion Garry Kasparov, who had successfully defended his crown three times against Karpov. According to Short and Kasparov, FIDE President Florencio Campomanes breached FIDE rules by deciding to stage the match in Manchester and to determine the prize fund without consulting them. Short and Kasparov responded by forming the Professional Chess Association (PCA) and the resulting match—sponsored by The Times newspaper—was held under the auspices of the PCA in London, from September to October 1993. Kasparov won by 12.5-7.5 (+6−1=13) in the best-of-24 match, the largest margin of victory in a world title contest since the Tal - Botvinnik World Championship Return Match (1961).

Short’s next attempt at the title remained under the auspices of the PCA. Qualifying directly for the PCA Candidates match by virtue of being the losing challenger in the match against Kasparov, Short tied 4-4 (+1 =6 -1) with Boris Gulko in the best-of-8 quarterfinal match held at the Trump Tower in New York City in July 1994, before winning 1.5-0.5 in the classically-timed tiebreaker. He then bowed out to Gata Kamsky 5.5-1.5 (+1 =1 -5) in the best-of-10 quarter final match held at the same venue. Rejoining the FIDE cycle, Short competed in its 1997 Knockout contest to determine the challenger to Karpov, the winner of the last FIDE cycle. He defeated Korchnoi 3.5-2.5 in round 2 (into which he had been directly seeded), Andrei Sokolov 2-0 in round 3, Alexander Beliavsky 3-1 in round 4 and Michal Krasenkow 2-0 in the quarter final before losing to Adams in the semi-final 4-3 in the sudden death tiebreaker. In the 1999 FIDE Knockout contest for the World Championship, Short, again seeded directly into round 2, beat Daniel Fridman 1.5-0.5, Beliavsky in round 3 by 1.5-0.5, before succumbing to Alexey Shirov by 1.5-0.5 in round 4. In the 2000 event, Short was unexpectedly beaten 3.5-2.5 in the tiebreaker of round 2, where he had been directly seeded, by Frenchmen Igor Alexandre Nataf. In the FIDE World Championship Knockout Tournament (2001), Short was knocked out of the competition in round 1 when he was again unexpectedly defeated 1.5-0.5 by Argentinian GM Daniel Hugo Campora. In FIDE World Championship Knockout Tournament (2004), Short defeated Yemeni IM Hameed Mansour Ali Kadhi 2-0 in round 1, but lost in the 2nd round to Krasenkow 1.5-0.5. Short did not contest the FIDE World Cup (2005) but participated in the World Chess Cup (2007) where he was defeated in the first round tiebreaker by David Baramidze, the last time Short contested the World Championship cycle.

Classical Tournaments

Short became the then youngest International Master in chess history, by scoring 8/15 in the Hastings Premier in 1979/80. He has finished outright first, or tied for first, in many international tournaments including Geneva (1979), the BBC Master Game (1981), Amsterdam OHRA (1982), Baku (1983), Esbjerg (1984), Wijk aan Zee (1986 and 1987), Reykjavík (1987), Amsterdam VSB (1988, 1991, 1992, and 1993), Hastings (1987/88 and 1988/89), Pärnu (1996), Groningen (1996), Tallinn/Pärnu (1998), Dhaka United Insurance (1999), Shymkent (1999), Pamplona (1999/2000), the Tan Chin Nam Cup in Beijing (2000), Sigeman and Co. Malmö (2002), Gibraltar (2003), Gibraltar Masters (2004), Hunguest Hotels Super Chess Tournament (2003), Samba Cup (2003), Skanderborg (2003), Taiyuan (2004), Politiken Cup (2006), Baku 2008, Bazna King's Tournament (2008), Sigeman & Co (2009), 11th BCC Thailand Open (2011), Thailand Open 2012 and Luanda (2011). In 2012, he came =1st with Women's World Champion Yifan Hou at Tradewise Gibraltar (2012) but won the blitz tiebreak match to take first prize. He then won the 12th Bangkok Open (2012) with a score of 8/9 and came equal 1st with Adams in the unrated Bunratty Masters (2012); however he lost to Adams in the tiebreak. Another good result was =2nd at Corus Group B (2009) after losing the last round game to Fabiano Caruana, who won the event by half a point. In July 2012, Short won the Edmonton International (2012) outright with 7/9 (+6 -1 =2).

In January 2013, Short again appeared on the leader board at Gibraltar, placing =1st with a score of 8/10 alongside with Maxime Vachier-Lagrave, Chanda Sandipan and Nikita Vitiugov at the Tradewise Gibraltar (2013). This time the tiebreak was a knockout blitz contest between the four players, the Tradewise Gibraltar (Tiebreaks) (2013); Short eliminated Vachier-Lagrave 1.5-0.5, and then lost to Vitiugov in an epic 2-game mini match to become runner-up in the event. A few months later in April 2013, Short participated in the 13th Bangkok Chess Club Open, placing =8th (11th on tiebreak) with a score of 6.5/9 and shedding 12 ratings points. The following month in May 2013, Short came =1st (2nd on tiebreak behind Richard Rapport), with 4.5/7 at the category 15 21st Sigeman & Co (2013) in Sweden and then in June 2013 he won with 6/6 at the Tanzanian Open and came 2nd behind Lazaro Bruzon Batista in the 8th Edmonton International (2013). In July 2013, he won the Canadian Open with 7.5/9 and in October 2013 he placed =2nd (3rd on tiebreak) alongside Alexander Moiseenko at the Indonesian Open after defeating him in the final round, a point behind the outright winner, Alexey Dreev.

In October 2014, Short returned to form after a prolonged slump during which he briefly left the world's top 100. At the Isle of Man, he won the PokerStars IoM Masters (2014) with 7.5/9, a clear point ahead of a strong field that included runners-up Laurent Fressinet, Sergei Tiviakov, David Howell (whom he defeated in the final round to clinch first prize) and Gil Popilski as well as lower placed super-GMs such as countryman Adams and others such as world #13 Maxime Vachier-Lagrave and Armenian #2 Gabriel Sargissian. Short also returned to the world's top 100 in the November 2014 FIDE rating list. In November 2014, Short travelled to Burma to win the GM Zaw Win Lay Memorial International Open with 6.5/8. A few months later in April 2015, Short won the Bangkok Chess Club Open (2015) with 7.5/9, on tiebreak, ahead of co-leader Surya Shekhar Ganguly. In July 2015, he won the South African Open with 9/11, after the tiebreak placed him ahead of fellow co-leaders Aleksa Strikovic and Abhijit Kunte.

Team play

<Club tournaments> Short’s inaugural experience in the European Club Cup was in 1988, playing for SG Solingen (Germany) which came 4th that year. He again played for that club in 1990 and 1992 winning team gold and bronze respectively. He played top board for Peristeri Athens in 1996, and board 4 in 1999 for the silver-medal winning team Agrouniverzal Zemun (Yugoslavia) that also contained Anand, Kramnik and Gelfand. In 2004, he won individual and team silver playing on board 2 for ŠK Bosna Sarajevo and again played for that team in 2007, playing board 5. He has played a total of 37 games during this period of participation in the European Club Cup, scoring +12 =21 -4 for a winning percentage of 60.8%.

<Team championships> Short played top board for the England team in the First World U16 Team Chess Championship held in Viborg in 1979, winning individual gold and leading his team to victory to take team gold. The 14 year-old won six games and drew one, pulling a performance rating of 2632 while his FIDE rating was 2210. He then went on to participate in the European and World Team Championships. His first taste of playing in the European Team Championships came in 1983 when 18 year-old IM Short played board 7 in the event held in Plovdiv, winning individual silver while his team came fourth. He played board one in 1992, 1997 and 1999, winning team and individual bronze medals in 1992 during the Debrecen event, and an individual gold in 1997 in Pula. He again played for England in 2001, 2011 and 2013, playing second board in 2001 and 2011, and board 3 in 2013.

Still playing for England during the World Team Championships of 1985 (on board 4), 1989 (board 1) and 1997 (board 1), each of which were played in Lucerne in Switzerland, he won individual silver in 1989 and two team bronzes in 1985 and 1989.

Short scored 8/10 in the Howard Staunton Memorial (Scheveningen Match) (2009) played between the United Kingdom and the Netherlands to help his team win the contest. He also won the Queens and Kings Match (2003) with his team mate Zhao Xue.

He also played top board for London in the World Cities Team Championship (2012) held in December 2012 in Al Ain in the United Arab Emirates. Despite his personal tally of two wins and a draw, London failed to make the cut to the round of 16.

Short has also participated in the Spanish Teams Championship, the French Top 16 League, the Bosnia and Herzegovina Team Championships, the Attica team Championship in Greece, the Chinese Premier League, and in the 4 Nations Chess League held in the UK. In 2013 and 2014, he helped his team Guildford 1 win the 4NCL. He is again playing for Guildford 1 in 2015.

<Olympiads> Short has represented England at every Olympiad since 1984, winning individual gold in Dubai in 1986, three team silvers (Thessaloniki 1984, Dubai 1986 and Thessaloniki 1988) and a team bronze medal (Novi Sad 1990). In his first appearance at the Thessaloniki Olympiad in 1984, Short played 2nd reserve for the silver medal-winning England team. In 1986, he played board 3, winning individual gold and team silver. He played top board for his country from 1988 until 1996, and board 2 from 1998 until 2010. He played his 15th consecutive Olympiad in Istanbul at the Chess Olympiad (2012) in August-September 2012, scoring 7.5/10 and placing 5th on board 3 overall and lifting his rating back into the 2700 group. He also played board 3 for England at the Chess Olympiad (2014).


Short has enjoyed considerable success as a match player outside of the World Championship cycle, defeating US Champion Lev Alburt in Foxboro in 1985 by 7–1 (+6=2), Utut Adianto 4.5-1.5 (+3=3) in Jakarta in 1995, Etienne Bacrot in Albert in 2000 by 4-2 (+3=2–1), Hannes Stefansson in Reykjavík in 2002 by 4.5-1.5 (+4=1–1), Ehsan Ghaem Maghami in Tehran in 2003 by 4-2 (+2=4) and won by 3.5-2.5 (+2=3–1) in the Short - Efimenko Match (2009) held in Mukachevo in 2009. Short lost to Joel Benjamin by 2.5–1.5 at London 1983, drew with Eugenio Torre 3-3 (+1=4–1) in Manila 1988, drew with Timman (3–3) in an exhibition match at Hilversum in 1989 and drew with Anish Giri in Amsterdam in 2010 by 2-2 (+1 =2 -1). The younger generation prevailed in the Karjakin - Short Rapid match (2008) by 7.5-2.5 (Short: +2 -7 =1) played in Kiev. He narrowly lost the Kasparov - Short Blitz Match (2011) played in Belgium by 4.5-3.5 when he lost the final game. In 2012, he won the Short - Granda Match (2012) by 3.5-2.5 (+2 =2) in a rapid game exhibition match played in Lima, Peru.


Short took first place at the Estonian Pühajärve 13. kiirmaleturniir (13th Sacred Lake Rapid Chess Tournament) in November 2012, scoring 28.5/31, 4 points clear of 2nd placed 7 times Estonian Champion GM Kaido Kulaots. In November 2014, he placed 2nd at the BCC November 2014 Blitz behind FYROM's Riste Menkinoski. In December 2014 he placed =3rd at the London Chess Classic 2014 Super Rapidplay Open with 8/10.

Ratings and rankings

Nigel Short has been in the world's top 100 for most of his life. He entered the top 100 in January 1983, and after briefly exiting the list in July 1983, re-entered the top 100 in January 1984, remaining there until September 2014 and October 2014, before his second re-entry to the top 100 elite in November 2014. He was in the top ten for most of the period from July 1986 until January 1997. His peak ranking was 3rd behind Karpov and Kasparov from July 1988 to July 1989 inclusive. His highest rating numerically was 2712 in April 2004 (when he was ranked 15th in the world)*.

He is also the oldest player in the top 100.

Other achievements and activities

Short has written chess columns and book reviews for the British newspapers The Sunday Times, The Daily Telegraph, the Daily Mail, The Spectator and The Guardian. He reported on the FIDE World Championship Tournament (2005) in San Luis, Argentina, for the ChessBase website**. He began a new column "Short Stories" for New in Chess magazine in January 2011. He has coached Pentala Harikrishna, Sergey Karjakin, David Howell and Parimarjan Negi. He worked as national coach of the Islamic Republic of Iran from 2006–2007. His first assignment led to them unexpectedly capturing a team bronze medal at the Asian Games in Doha, Qatar, in 2006. In the nine chess events at the Asian Indoor Games in Macau 2007, Iran took a silver and two bronze medals. He has also been on numerous webcasts, a guest commentator with, and a live commentator for the World Championship Candidates (2013). He is also a member of using his own name as his userid: User: Nigel Short. In recognition of his chess accomplishments, Short was appointed MBE (Member of the British Empire)*** in 1999. He was made an Honorary Fellow of the then Bolton Institute of Higher Education in 1993 and was awarded the Honorary degree of Doctor of Science by the University of Bolton in 2010. In August 2005, he was unanimously elected Secretary General of the Commonwealth Chess Association. In June 2006 he became its President, until stepping down in January 2008. Finally, he has won tournaments in 29 different countries.****


He lives in Greece with his wife Rhea Argyro Karageorgiou and their two children.


World Championship Index: live rating:; Nigel Short Turns 40:; FIDE database:; The Encyclopedia of Team Chess:; * Historical ratings and rankings:; ** The first chessbase article is: with the other rounds reported by Short included round by round at the following link: *** MBE: Wikipedia article: Order of the British Empire ****

Wikipedia article: Nigel Short

Last updated 14 July 2015

 page 1 of 105; games 1-25 of 2,606  PGN Download
Game  ResultMoves Year Event/LocaleOpening
1. Short vs H Wright 1-030 1974 AthertonC30 King's Gambit Declined
2. S J Hooker vs Short 0-125 1975 Enfield OpenC18 French, Winawer
3. Short vs P Fenton 1-040 1975 SCCU Junior Championships U-14C78 Ruy Lopez
4. Short vs J Cox 1-021 1975 LondonB07 Pirc
5. Portisch vs Short ½-½37 1975 Simultaneous exhibitionB30 Sicilian
6. Short vs B Kimber 1-017 1975 ENGC61 Ruy Lopez, Bird's Defense
7. C Frostick vs Short  0-116 1975 SCCU Junior Championships U-14C18 French, Winawer
8. Short vs I D Wells 1-032 1975 Morecambe jrD78 Neo-Grunfeld, 6.O-O c6
9. Short vs J Evans  1-072 1975 Staffordshire opB01 Scandinavian
10. Hambrook vs Short 0-121 1976 ENGC17 French, Winawer, Advance
11. Short vs Hartston 0-119 1976 BBC TV Master GameA32 English, Symmetrical Variation
12. Short vs G Knapton 1-015 1976 Lancashire vs Durham County MatchC77 Ruy Lopez
13. Short vs Joel Benjamin 1-044 1976 London txB41 Sicilian, Kan
14. Short vs J T Farrand 1-022 1976 ManchesterD07 Queen's Gambit Declined, Chigorin Defense
15. Short vs M Macdonald-Ross 1-027 1976 Charlton OpenC12 French, McCutcheon
16. Short vs R Miles 1-025 1976 LondonB07 Pirc
17. Miles vs Short 1-038 1976 Charlton OpenA44 Old Benoni Defense
18. Korchnoi vs Short 0-147 1976 London smC05 French, Tarrasch
19. Short vs K James 1-042 1976 Dundrum International openB22 Sicilian, Alapin
20. Short vs Karpov 0-159 1977 London smB21 Sicilian, 2.f4 and 2.d4
21. Short vs J Penrose 1-041 1977 ENGB40 Sicilian
22. Short vs Flear 1-020 1977 BrightonC77 Ruy Lopez
23. Short vs D Cummings 0-129 1977 BCF-chB22 Sicilian, Alapin
24. Short vs M Fuller 1-020 1977 London, EnglandB30 Sicilian
25. B Cafferty vs Short  1-031 1977 BrightonA30 English, Symmetrical
 page 1 of 105; games 1-25 of 2,606  PGN Download
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Greatest Hits Vol 1

Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 203 OF 420 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Sep-27-08  Woody Wood Pusher: <Short><In which case I would say you are a fantasist with views that are not worth tuppence.>

Can i squeeze a comment past your ego?...suddenly Gata's dad doesn't seem so out of line.

Sep-27-08  whiskeyrebel: badest, homeless folks here in the U.S. who make their way to a hospital emergency room don't die. They get free care. I have friends who make plenty of money under the table who lie to receive the same free care although they make $50,000+ per year or so. There are programs for the elderly and the poor also. Incidentally, low interest college student loans are very easy to get here too.
Sep-27-08  whiskeyrebel: Incidentally, before anybody starts up, I'm not a Republican. I'm a lower middleclass recipient of college loans who worked for a short time in the medical billing data entry racket.
Sep-27-08  badest: <whiskeyrebel> But of course, ... :) I was talking about all the 30+ M Americans that don't lie and make enough money not to get free health care.

Incidentally, in "communist" countries education is free ;) ... and, ok, you don't want to study history, economy or political science there, but for the rest they are more or less ok.

Sep-27-08  Manic: <Woody> I'd say both your attitudes seem similar, though your views differ. You and Mr. Short both have very strong views and stick by them (I'd wilt under pressure) and I respect that. I'd be careful what you say though, because what you say might come back to bite you. I can see that you have made many useful posts, such as your analysis on the daily puzzle today. On other things though, your posts can annoy me quite a bit... Kramnik vs Kasparov, 2000

I can see merits in both arguments, but overall I would say capitalism is better than communism, based on just the practical results. Today most communist countries are basically capitalist now (i.e. Russia and China), which I believe says something about which is better.

<badest> If you think about it, most of the homeless people are likely to be people who have had a chance at a better life and chosen not to take it, where as in some communist countries (North Korea is probably the best example) they just don't get a chance, as they are born into poverty, which is probably a result of the type of government.

I've been taught only communism in its ideal form is much better, but that is purely utopian and is basically impossible.

Premium Chessgames Member
  rogge: USA isn't exactly the gold standard in Western health care or educational system, it's more like the exception.

You'd rather look to Western Europe (Scandinavia in particular) or Canada...

<you don't want to study history, economy or political science there, but for the rest they are more or less ok>

Did you ask anyone in North Korea and Burma? Ridiculous.

Average male height in Korea differs with 8cm (165 cm north, 173 cm south). What does that tell about malnutrition?

Have you heard about Maslow? They want food, not to study history.

Sep-27-08  Red October: <GM Short> <No doubt you would rather have me compare capitalism in its various different existent forms with your idealised form of communism which apparently has never been tried anywhere. In which case I would say you are a fantasist with views that are not worth tuppence.> well let me put it this way, is the important thing being richer ? unless you think the so called "capitalist" countries got rich solely by their own merits, but they didn't, getting rich by exploiting a section of society is hardly free or fair

of course you can argue that the world has never been free or fair and that the western economies were freer than their so-called <Communist> counter parts and you would be right, they were, but it still does not address the root of the problem

Holland's diamond trading has never been accountable for what happened in Africa

Nike has never been held fully accountable for how it runs its factories in Third World countries

no doubt <Communism> is tainted with the violent regimes that claimed to champion its cause, but very few realise the damage the the so called free market system that most of us believe in and profit from causes around the world

with the current rise in food prices how much of it actually reaches the farmer ? how much is skimmed off by middle men ?

my views may indeed be worth nothing, but if you are willing to have a serious debate then I am certainly game for one

however judging by the tone of your last post it would be a waste of time

just because a system has not been tried yet does not mean it is worthless, if that was the case women would have never been allowed to vote, compete in the Olympics etc

so merely arguing that <true> Communism has never been tried and hence it is Utopian is fallacious

further I said before that I am not a Communist (something I think you overlooked)

so I do not endorse purely State controlled enterprises, nor do I endorse abolishing private property

I believe that by state involvement in order to prevent monopolies and huge business monoliths there would be freer competition, the last decade has seen a serious lack of growth in small businesses

smaller private owned businesses with stronger labour laws and lower taxes seems a better way to go than these huge behemoths which see economic resources being depleted and exploited at astonishing pace

the one economic resource we all took for granted, <Capital> is also now in trouble, its high time there was a change

Sep-27-08  angslo: "Is USA becoming socialist?

Let’s distinguish between two meanings of the word. For many people, socialism means state ownership of the means of production, as in the Soviet Union and Mao’s China, and the US is not going in that direction. But socialism can also mean an activist state that provides basic needs for all, and creates safety nets for those hit by misfortune, old age and sickness. The US has long been socialist in this second sense, and is getting more so.

Modern capitalist states are all welfare states. Enormous bureaucracies have been created to tax the rich, regulate business, provide subsidies and special schemes to the needy, thwart environmental harm and health hazards, and so on. The list is long and keeps growing.

It could not be otherwise in democracies. Contrary to Marx’s assumptions, legislators get elected by catering to the masses, even while taking money from corporations. Legislators constantly create new rules and regulations to protect consumers, retirees, and other vote banks.

The US is less welfarist than European countries, but is not too far behind."

Sep-27-08  badest: <rogge> Haha ... you are funny! The US is an *exception* and N. Korea and Burma are the "norm" for communist countries ... :D

Try China? Or why not the Scandinavian countries... you get pretty close to functioning communism there (or a mixture between socialism/communism).

Sep-27-08  angslo: and China is becoming more of capitalist,
so is brazil of socialist lulu.

hybrid of capitalism and socialism is what is working whereever life is working for all - it seems

Premium Chessgames Member
  rogge: <badest>, you clearly know NOTHING about Scandinavia :)
Sep-27-08  badest: <rogge> LOL! I guess living there 40+ years does that to you. ;)
Sep-27-08  angslo: <badest: <rogge> Haha ... you are funny! The US is an *exception* and N. Korea and Burma are the "norm" for communist countries ... :D

Try China? Or why not the Scandinavian countries... you get pretty close to functioning communism there (or a mixture between socialism/communism).>

see the article whose link i posted above which clearly explains that USA and other European countries are clearly capitalist as fars as businees or means of production are concerned.

and China , Brazil , India got economic growth only by following that model.

Hence, the point made by Short that communism leads to penury (China and Brazil too followed capitalism model for economic growth).

USA and European countries are socialist in the sense of being welfarist states

basically the same thing <badest> which u r saying - a hybrid of socialism and capitalism.

<rogge> seems to be saying the same thing . To me , it looks like we are all in agreement if observed closely :)

Premium Chessgames Member
  rogge: <badest>, you want the final words? Try again (you'll get it).

Norway and Denmark - The Communist NATO countries.

(Norway and Denmark are Scandinavian countries) :)

<angslo>, sharp observation, as always :)

Sep-27-08  badest: <rogge: <badest>, you want the final words? Try again (you'll get it).

Norway and Denmark - The Communist NATO countries.> Now, you're talking ;) No, my examples are really from Sweden... so generalizing for all of Scandinavia is of course wrong...

<angslo> nice article...

Sep-27-08  Ziggurat: <badest> And in what sense has Sweden ever been "communist"?
Sep-27-08  Red October: < Ziggurat: <badest> And in what sense has Sweden ever been "communist"? > no doubt because <acirce> is a communist :)
Premium Chessgames Member
  rogge: Btw, <Red October>, you're right. Many large multinational corporations have a lot to answer for.
Sep-27-08  Cactus: <Red October> What people don't realise, is that true communism <has> been tried, though not by developed countries. Many native groups of North America tried it, as well as many others. Perhaps it's possible to say that some religious groups try it today, such as the Amish.
Sep-27-08  Jole: Communism fails because it cannot produce agents of communism.
Sep-27-08  Jole: Cactus: I believe that when people here are talking about communism, they are talking, with varying levels of precision, about marxist communism. Using the pre-marxist and broader usage of the word communism does lead to more examples, but it is different to marxist communism.
Sep-27-08  badest: <Ziggurat: <badest> And in what sense has Sweden ever been "communist"?> Well, "pseudo-communist" in any case.

<Red October: < Ziggurat: <badest> And in what sense has Sweden ever been "communist"? > no doubt because <acirce> is a communist :)> Spot on! (acirce is a communist, his friends are commies, their friends are all commies... --> all Swedes are commies ;)

Premium Chessgames Member
  valiant: <And in what sense has Sweden ever been "communist"?>

I would guess on 'allemansrätten', a law that makes it permissible for anyone to walk and camp almost anywhere because landowners are not permitted to barricade their estates or chase people away. Also Karl-Bertil Jonssons Christmas mission...

Premium Chessgames Member
  Nigel Short: One observes that you have pointedly refused to answer my questions about Korea and Germany <Red October>. Please just give me a response before you try to change the subject.
Sep-27-08  Red October: <GM Short> <of course you can argue that the world has never been free or fair and that the western economies were freer than their so-called <Communist> counter parts and you would be right, they were, but it still does not address the root of the problem

> I think you overlooked this part of my post

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