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Short 
Photo by Frederic Friedel.  
Nigel Short
Number of games in database: 2,403
Years covered: 1974 to 2013
Last FIDE rating: 2681
Highest rating achieved in database: 2712
Overall record: +787 -416 =915 (58.8%)*
   * Overall winning percentage = (wins+draws/2) / total games
      Based on games in the database; may be incomplete.
      285 exhibition games, odds games, etc. are excluded from this statistic.

MOST PLAYED OPENINGS
With the White pieces:
 Sicilian (512) 
    B90 B23 B40 B33 B81
 Ruy Lopez (191) 
    C84 C78 C92 C86 C65
 French Defense (136) 
    C11 C18 C10 C19 C02
 Caro-Kann (100) 
    B12 B10 B17 B11 B18
 Ruy Lopez, Closed (95) 
    C84 C92 C86 C95 C90
 Sicilian Najdorf (91) 
    B90 B92 B93 B91 B97
With the Black pieces:
 French Defense (187) 
    C05 C11 C18 C02 C03
 Ruy Lopez (127) 
    C92 C76 C69 C77 C89
 Queen's Pawn Game (97) 
    E00 A40 A46 D02 A45
 Queen's Gambit Declined (88) 
    D37 D35 D36 D31 D38
 Orthodox Defense (77) 
    D58 D55 D59 D54 D63
 Nimzo Indian (76) 
    E34 E20 E32 E41 E21
Repertoire Explorer

NOTABLE GAMES: [what is this?]
   Short vs Timman, 1991 1-0
   Short vs R Miles, 1976 1-0
   Short vs Kasparov, 1993 1-0
   Short vs Kasparov, 1993 1/2-1/2
   Short vs Gelfand, 1991 1-0
   Short vs Karpov, 1992 1-0
   Short vs Kasparov, 1993 1-0
   Short vs I Cheparinov, 2008 1-0
   M Gurevich vs Short, 1990 0-1
   Short vs Stefansson, 2002 1-0

WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS: [what is this?]
   Kasparov-Short World Championship Match (1993)
   FIDE World Championship Knockout Tournament (2004)

NOTABLE TOURNAMENTS: [what is this?]
   Gibraltar Masters (2004)
   2008 Olympiad (2008)
   European Union Championships (2008)
   Commonwealth Championship (2008)
   Howard Staunton Memorial (Scheveningen Match) (2009)
   11th BCC Thailand Open (2011)
   Commonwealth and South African Open (2011)
   Tradewise Gibraltar (2011)
   Edmonton International (2012)
   Tradewise Gibraltar (2012)
   Chess Olympiad (2012)
   Tradewise Gibraltar (2013)

GAME COLLECTIONS: [what is this?]
   Match Short! by amadeus
   Short's Run by suenteus po 147
   Guess-the-Move Chess: 1990-1999 (Part 2) by Anatoly21
   Guess-the-Move Chess: 1990-1999 (Part 4) by Anatoly21
   Guess-the-Move Chess: 1980-1989 (Part 3) by Anatoly21
   Brussels Blitz 1987 by KingG
   Would Like to Study these games by FLAWLESSWIN64
   Rotterdam World Cup 1989 by suenteus po 147
   Skelleftea World Cup 1989 by suenteus po 147

Search Sacrifice Explorer for Nigel Short
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FIDE player card for Nigel Short


NIGEL SHORT
(born Jun-01-1965) United Kingdom

[what is this?]
Nigel David Short was born in Leigh in Lancashire, the second son of Jean and David Short.

Background

A bona fide chess prodigy, Short defeated Viktor Korchnoi in a simul at the age of 10 and was the youngest ever qualifier for the British Championships at the age of 11. When he earned his International Master title at the age of 14, he was at that time the youngest ever to earn that title. When he won the Grandmaster title at the age of 19, he was the youngest GM in the world at the time. He subsequently rose to dominate English chess in the 80s and 90s following in the wake of Anthony Miles, culminating in a challenge for the World Championship in 1993.

Championships

<Age> Short was =1st in the World U16 Youth Championship held in Belfort in 1979 and participated in four World Junior Championships from 1980 to 1983. He achieved his best result during his first attempt in which he placed second to Garry Kasparov in 1980 at Dortmund.

<National> In 1977 he became the youngest ever participant in the British Chess Championship by qualifying three days before his twelfth birthday. When Nigel was 14, he tied for 1st place in the British Championship of 1979 with John Nunn and Robert Bellin, earning his first IM norm. Short won the British Chess Championship in 1984, 1987, and 1998, and the English Championship in 1991. He came =1st in the British Championships (2011) at the age of 46, but lost the tie breaker to Michael Adams.

<Commonwealth and Continental> He won the Commonwealth Championships in 2004 (7.5/9) and 2006 (9/10), the Commonwealth Championship (2008) (9.5/11) and came =1st in the Commonwealth and South African Open (2011) (7.5/9). He scored 7.5/13 in the 2nd European Individual Championship held in Ohrid in the FYROM in 2001, won the European Union Individual Championships (2006) held in Liverpool with 7.5/10, and took a share of second place in the European Individual Championship (2008).

<World> Short qualified to play in the Biel Interzonal when he placed =1st alongside Jonathan Speelman in European Zonal 1A held in Brighton in December 1984. Subsequently, in July 1985, he placed =4th at the Biel Interzonal with 10.5/18 (+6 =9 -2), holding off John Van der Wiel and Eugenio Torre in a play off for the fourth qualifying position to the Montpellier Candidates, thereby becoming Britain's first-ever candidate. Short did not win through to the semi-final Candidate Matches from the preliminary Candidates Tournament, scoring 7/15 to finish in equal tenth place, and exited the World Championship challenge at this stage. However, his participation in the Montpellier Candidates Tournament qualified Short to compete in the 1987 Subotica Interzonal in which he scored 10.5/16 to place equal first with Speelman and Gyula Sax. In the preliminary match held in Saint John in Canada in 1988, Short defeated Sax (+2=3), but then lost by 3.5-1.5 (−2=3) to Speelman in London later that year. This cycle was the last full undisputed FIDE controlled World Championship cycle until the Kramnik-Topalov World Championship Match (2006) Unification Match. During the next World Championship cycle, a last round victory over Mikhail Gurevich enabled Short to finish equal third with Viswanathan Anand, behind Vassily Ivanchuk and Boris Gelfand at the Manila Interzonal in July 1990, thereby qualifying as a Candidate for the third successive time.

In London in February 1991, he bested Speelman in the tiebreaker by 1.5-0.5 after drawing the preliminary best-of-8 match 4-4 (+2 =4 -2). He then proceeded to defeat Gelfand (+4=2–2) in the best-of-8 quarter final match played in Brussels in August 1991, and then overcame the former World Champion Anatoly Karpov by 6-4 (+4=4–2) in the best-of-10 semi-final match played in Linares in April 1992. In the best-of-14 match final held in San Lorenzo de El Escorial in January 1993, Short defeated Dutchman Jan Timman by 7.5-5.5 (+5=5–3) to earn the right to meet defending World Champion Garry Kasparov, who had successfully defended his crown three times against Karpov. According to Short and Kasparov, FIDE President Florencio Campomanes breached FIDE rules by deciding to stage the match in Manchester and to determine the prize fund without consulting them. Short and Kasparov responded by forming the Professional Chess Association (PCA) and the resulting match—sponsored by The Times newspaper—was held under the auspices of the PCA in London, from September to October 1993. Kasparov won by 12.5-7.5 (+6−1=13) in the best-of-24 match, the largest margin of victory in a world title contest since the Tal-Botvinnik World Championship Return Match (1961).

Short’s next attempt at the title remained under the auspices of the PCA. Qualifying directly for the PCA Candidates match by virtue of being the losing challenger in the match against Kasparov, Short tied 4-4 (+1 =6 -1) with Boris Gulko in the best-of-8 quarterfinal match held at the Trump Tower in New York City in July 1994, before winning 1.5-0.5 in the classically-timed tiebreaker. He then bowed out to Gata Kamsky 5.5-1.5 (+1 =1 -5) in the best-of-10 quarter final match held at the same venue. Rejoining the FIDE cycle, Short competed in its 1997 Knockout contest to determine the challenger to Karpov, the winner of the last FIDE cycle. He defeated Korchnoi 3.5-2.5 in round 2 (into which he had been directly seeded), Andrei Sokolov 2-0 in round 3, Alexander Beliavsky 3-1 in round 4 and Mikhail Krasenkow 2-0 in the quarter final before losing to Adams in the semi-final 4-3 in the sudden death tiebreaker. In the 1999 FIDE Knockout contest for the World Championship, Short, again seeded directly into round 2, beat Daniel Fridman 1.5-0.5, Beliavsky in round 3 by 1.5-0.5, before succumbing to Alexey Shirov by 1.5-0.5 in round 4. In the 2000 event, Short was unexpectedly beaten 3.5-2.5 in the tiebreaker of round 2, where he had been directly seeded, by Frenchmen Igor Alexandre Nataf. In the FIDE World Championship Knockout Tournament (2001), Short was knocked out of the competition in round 1 when he was again unexpectedly defeated 1.5-0.5 by Argentinian GM Daniel Campora. In FIDE World Championship Knockout Tournament (2004), Short defeated Yemeni IM Hameed Mansour Ali Kadhi 2-0 in round 1, but lost in the 2nd round to Krasenkow 1.5-0.5. Short did not contest the FIDE World Cup (2005) but participated in the World Chess Cup (2007) where he was defeated in the first round tiebreaker by David Baramidze, the last time Short contested the World Championship cycle.

Classical Tournaments

Short became the then youngest International Master in chess history, by scoring 8/15 in the Hastings Premier in 1979/80. He has finished outright first, or tied for first, in many international tournaments including Geneva (1979), the BBC Master Game (1981), Amsterdam OHRA (1982), Baku (1983), Esbjerg (1984), Wijk aan Zee (1986 and 1987), Reykjavík (1987), Amsterdam VSB (1988, 1991, 1992, and 1993), Hastings (1987/88 and 1988/89), Pärnu (1996), Groningen (1996), Tallinn/Pärnu (1998), Dhaka United Insurance (1999), Shymkent (1999), Pamplona (1999/2000), the Tan Chin Nam Cup in Beijing (2000), Sigeman and Co. Malmö (2002), Gibraltar (2003), Gibraltar Masters (2004), Hunguest Hotels Super Chess Tournament (2003), Samba Cup (2003), Skanderborg (2003), Taiyuan (2004), Politiken Cup (2006), Baku 2008, Bazna King's Tournament (2008), Sigeman & Co (2009), 11th BCC Thailand Open (2011), Thailand Open 2012 and Luanda (2011). In 2012, he came =1st with Women's World Champion Yifan Hou at Tradewise Gibraltar (2012) but won the blitz tiebreak match to take first prize. He then won the 12th Bangkok Open (2012) with a score of 8/9 and came equal 1st with Adams in the unrated Bunratty Masters (2012); however he lost to Adams in the tiebreak. Another good result was =2nd at Corus (Group B) (2009) after losing the last round game to Fabiano Caruana, who won the event by half a point. In July 2012, Short won the Edmonton International (2012) outright with 7/9 (+6 -1 =2).

In January 2013, Short again appeared on the leader board at Gibraltar, placing =1st with a score of 8/10 alongside with Maxime Vachier-Lagrave, Chanda Sandipan and Nikita Vitiugov at the Tradewise Gibraltar (2013). This time the tiebreak was a knockout blitz contest between the four players, the Tradewise Gibraltar (Tiebreaks) (2013); Short eliminated Vachier-Lagrave 1.5-0.5, and then lost to Vitiugov in an epic 2-game mini match to become runner-up in the event. A few months later in April 2013, Short participated in the 13th Bangkok Chess Club Open, placing =8th (11th on tiebreak) with a score of 6.5/9 and shedding 12 ratings points.

Team play

<Club tournaments> Short’s inaugural experience in the European Club Cup was in 1988, playing for SG Solingen (Germany) which came 4th that year. He again played for that club in 1990 and 1992 winning team gold and bronze respectively. He played top board for Peristeri Athens in 1996, and board 4 in 1999 for the silver-medal winning team Agrouniverzal Zemun (Yugoslavia) that also contained Anand, Kramnik and Gelfand. In 2004, he won individual and team silver playing on board 2 for ŠK Bosna Sarajevo and again played for that team in 2007, playing board 5. He has played a total of 37 games during this period of participation in the European Club Cup, scoring +12 =21 -4 for a winning percentage of 60.8%.

<Team championships> Short played top board for the England team in the First World U16 Team Chess Championship held in Viborg in 1979, winning individual gold and leading his team to victory to take team gold. The 14 year-old won six games and drew one, pulling a performance rating of 2632 while his FIDE rating was 2210. He then went on to participate in the European and World Team Championships. His first taste of playing in the European Team Championships came in 1983 when 18 year-old IM Short played board 7 in the event held in Plovdiv, winning individual silver while his team came fourth. He played board one in 1992, 1997 and 1999, winning team and individual bronze medals in 1992 during the Debrecen event, and an individual gold in 1997 in Pula. He again played for England in 2001 and 2011, playing second board on both occasions.

Still playing for England during the World Team Championships of 1985 (on board 4), 1989 (board 1) and 1997 (board 1), each of which were played in Lucerne in Switzerland, he won individual silver in 1989 and two team bronzes in 1985 and 1989.

Short scored 8/10 in the Howard Staunton Memorial (Scheveningen Match) (2009) played between the United Kingdom and the Netherlands to help his team win the contest. He also won the Queens and Kings Match (2003) with his team mate Zhao Xue.

He also played top board for London in the World Cities Team Championship (2012) held in December 2012 in Al Ain in the United Arab Emirates. Despite his personal tally of two wins and a draw, London failed to make the cut to the round of 16.

Short has also participated in the Spanish Teams Championship, the French Top 16 League, the Bosnia and Herzegovina Team Championships, the Attica team Championship in Greece, the Chinese Premier League, and in the 4 Nations Chess League held in the UK. In 2013, he helped his team Guildford win the 4NCL.

<Olympiads> Short has represented England at every Olympiad since 1984, winning individual gold in Dubai in 1986, three team silvers (Thessaloniki 1984, Dubai 1986 and Thessaloniki 1988) and a team bronze medal (Novi Sad 1990). In his first appearance at the Thessaloniki Olympiad in 1984, Short played 2nd reserve for the silver medal-winning England team. In 1986, he played board 3, winning individual gold and team silver. He played top board for his country from 1988 until 1996, and board 2 from 1998 until 2010. He played his 15th consecutive Olympiad in Istanbul at the Chess Olympiad (2012) in August-September 2012, scoring 7.5/10 and placing 5th on board 3 overall and lifting his rating back into the 2700 group.

Matches

Short has enjoyed considerable success as a match player outside of the World Championship cycle, defeating US Champion Lev Alburt in Foxboro in 1985 by 7–1 (+6=2), Utut Adianto 4.5-1.5 (+3=3) in Jakarta in 1995, Etienne Bacrot in Albert in 2000 by 4-2 (+3=2–1), Hannes Stefansson in Reykjavík in 2002 by 4.5-1.5 (+4=1–1), Ehsan Ghaem Maghami in Tehran in 2003 by 4-2 (+2=4) and won by 3.5-2.5 (+2=3–1) in the Short-Efimenko Match (2009) held in Mukachevo in 2009. Short lost to Joel Benjamin by 2.5–1.5 at London 1983, drew with Eugenio Torre 3-3 (+1=4–1) in Manila 1988, drew with Timman (3–3) in an exhibition match at Hilversum in 1989 and drew with Anish Giri in Amsterdam in 2010 by 2-2 (+1 =2 -1). The younger generation prevailed in the Karjakin-Short Rapid match (2008) by 7.5-2.5 (Short: +2 -7 =1) played in Kiev. He narrowly lost the Kasparov-Short Blitz Match (2011) played in Belgium by 4.5-3.5 when he lost the final game. In 2012, he won the Short-Granda Match (2012) by 3.5-2.5 (+2 =2) in a rapid game exhibition match played in Lima, Peru.

Rapid

Short took first place at the Estonian Pühajärve 13. kiirmaleturniir (13th Sacred Lake Rapid Chess Tournament) in November 2012, scoring 28.5/31, 4 points clear of 2nd placed 7 times Estonian Champion GM Kaido Kulaots.

Rating and ranking

<Classical> Nigel Short has been in the world's top 100 for most of his life. He entered the top 100 in January 1983, and after briefly exiting the list in July 1983, re-entered the top 100 in January 1984, remaining there to the present time. He was in the top ten for most of the period from July 1986 until January 1997. His peak ranking was 3rd behind Karpov and Kasparov from July 1988 to July 1989 inclusive. His highest rating numerically was 2712 in April 2004 (when he was ranked 15th in the world)*. Currently (May 2013) with a rating of 2681, Short is the UK's third ranked player behind Adams and Luke McShane, and number 64 in the world; he is also the oldest player in the top 100.

<Rapid> 2711 (world #31); and

<Blitz> 2678 (world #59).

Other achievements and activities

Short has written chess columns and book reviews for the British newspapers The Sunday Times, The Daily Telegraph, the Daily Mail, The Spectator and The Guardian. He reported on the FIDE World Championship Tournament (2005) in San Luis, Argentina, for the ChessBase website**. He began a new column "Short Stories" for New in Chess magazine in January 2011. He has coached Pentala Harikrishna, Sergey Karjakin, David Howell and Parimarjan Negi. He worked as national coach of the Islamic Republic of Iran from 2006–2007. His first assignment led to them unexpectedly capturing a team bronze medal at the Asian Games in Doha, Qatar, in 2006. In the nine chess events at the Asian Indoor Games in Macau 2007, Iran took a silver and two bronze medals. He has also been on numerous webcasts, a guest commentator with chessgames.com, and a live commentator for the World Championship Candidates (2013). He is also a member of chessgames.com using his own name as his userid: User: Nigel Short. In recognition of his chess accomplishments, Short was appointed MBE (Member of the British Empire)*** in 1999. He was made an Honorary Fellow of the then Bolton Institute of Higher Education in 1993 and was awarded the Honorary degree of Doctor of Science by the University of Bolton in 2010. In August 2005, he was unanimously elected Secretary General of the Commonwealth Chess Association. In June 2006 he became its President, until stepping down in January 2008. Finally, he has won tournaments in 29 different countries.****

Controversies

Short has been embroiled in some controversies, some of which are detailed in the Wikipedia article about him linked below.

Personal

He is married to Rhea Argyro Karageorgiou, a drama-therapist, and they have two children: Kyveli Aliki (b. 7 July 1991) and Nicholas Darwin (b. 18 December 1998). He is currently residing in Greece.

Sources

World Championship Index: http://www.mark-weeks.com/chess/wcc.... live rating: http://www.2700chess.com; ; Nigel Short Turns 40: http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail...; FIDE database: http://ratings.fide.com/hist.phtml?...; The Encyclopedia of Team Chess: http://www.olimpbase.org/; * Historical ratings and rankings: http://www.schachchronik.de/ranglis...; ** The first chessbase article is: http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail... with the other rounds reported by Short included round by round at the following link: http://www.chessbase.com/eventlist.... *** MBE: Wikipedia article: Order of the British Empire **** http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail...

Wikipedia article: Nigel Short


 page 1 of 97; games 1-25 of 2,404  PGN Download
Game  ResultMoves Year Event/LocaleOpening
1. Short vs H Wright 1-030 1974 AthertonC30 King's Gambit Declined
2. Short vs I D Wells 1-032 1975 Morecambe jrD78 Neo-Grunfeld, 6.O-O c6
3. C Frostick vs Short 0-116 1975 SCCU Junior Championships U-14C18 French, Winawer
4. Short vs J Evans 1-072 1975 Staffordshire opB01 Scandinavian
5. Short vs P Fenton 1-040 1975 SCCU Junior Championships U-14C78 Ruy Lopez
6. S J Hooker vs Short 0-125 1975 Enfield OpenC18 French, Winawer
7. Short vs J Cox 1-021 1975 LondonB07 Pirc
8. Portisch vs Short ½-½37 1975 Simultaneous exhibitionB30 Sicilian
9. Short vs B Kimber 1-017 1975 ENGC61 Ruy Lopez, Bird's Defense
10. Short vs J T Farrand 1-022 1976 ManchesterD07 Queen's Gambit Declined, Chigorin Defense
11. Short vs J Benjamin 1-044 1976 London txB41 Sicilian, Kan
12. Short vs M Macdonald-Ross 1-027 1976 Charlton OpenC12 French, McCutcheon
13. Short vs R Miles 1-025 1976 LondonB07 Pirc
14. Short vs K James 1-042 1976 Dundrum International openB22 Sicilian, Alapin
15. Miles vs Short 1-038 1976 Charlton OpenA44 Old Benoni Defense
16. Hambrook vs Short 0-121 1976 ENGC17 French, Winawer, Advance
17. Short vs Hartston 0-119 1976 BBC TV Master GameA32 English, Symmetrical Variation
18. Korchnoi vs Short 0-147 1976 London smC05 French, Tarrasch
19. Short vs G Knapton 1-015 1976 Lancashire vs Durham County MatchC77 Ruy Lopez
20. G Botterill vs Short 1-039 1977 BCF-chE44 Nimzo-Indian, Fischer Variation, 5.Ne2
21. Compx Chess 46 vs Short 0-111 1977 London m/7C32 King's Gambit Declined, Falkbeer Counter Gambit
22. Short vs N Littlewood 1-022 1977 ManchesterB06 Robatsch
23. D Lees vs Short  0-121 1977 BCF-chC17 French, Winawer, Advance
24. Short vs A Sendur 1-032 1977 World Cadet ChampionshipB22 Sicilian, Alapin
25. Short vs A Reid  1-060 1977 BCF-chC77 Ruy Lopez
 page 1 of 97; games 1-25 of 2,404  PGN Download
  REFINE SEARCH:   White wins (1-0) | Black wins (0-1) | Draws (1/2-1/2) | Short wins | Short loses  
 

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 357 OF 381 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Jul-05-12  Chuckles: Also, you can consider what the TPR should be for a player who wins all games in a tournament. There is no rating gap that predicts a score of 100% - even a gap of thousands of points gives a predicted score like 99.99%. Using the normal TPR formula would give a TPR of infinity, and such a player adding a draw against Kasparov would see an infinite drop in TPR :).

I believe in this case the convention is to set the TPR at the value where its prediction is closer to all wins than to all wins except for a single draw. So using our 9-game example, the TPR for a perfect score would be the rating predicting 8.75/9. (This is from memory - I could be wrong about this part).

Jul-05-12  Paint My Dragon: Well that certainly made me chuckle! I now wish I hadn't mentioned the damned TPR, as you guys have given me a headache.

No doubt Nigel will slamdunk a few Mikhalevskis at his next outing and the spectre of Canada's lost Elo points will fade quickly from the memory.

Jul-06-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Nigel Short: To repeat, my expected score was just over +6 and not +7, as various people keep on insisting. This is because they have failed to take into account that players with Elo ratings more than 400 Elo points lower are considered, for rating purposes, to be exactly 400 points lower.
Jul-07-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Octavia: This discussion shows that the Elo system is bad. Nigel is brave enough not to worry about losing a few points! But the system is especially bad for a small country like Scotland where there are only a few titled players who have refused to play in sco for quite a long time because it isn't worthwhile. It means that any ambitious player has to travel far (at least to Engl) to get such experience.

I'm sure elo could be improved by giving every win a positive score for examle.

Jul-07-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  twinlark: <Octavia> <I'm sure elo could be improved by giving every win a positive score for examle.>

Every win does add points to a player's ratings. The thing is, a player gets more rating points for beating strong players than weaker players, which is as it should be.

Many of Nigel's opponents were weak by his standards, ie: their ratings were hundreds of points less than his. So he might get half a point beating someone rated 2300 or less whereas if he beat Anand or Carlsen he would get 5 or 6 points. I don't know the exact figure as the online calculator isn't connecting at the moment but you get the idea.

If you win or draw against someone rated higher than you, you gain points although more for the win obviously. Conversely, if you lose or draw against someone rated lower than yourself, you lose points.

What Nigel encountered is not unique. For example, when Fischer defeated Spassky to win the world championship back in '72, he actually lost 5 points from his rating, because he didn't win by the margin predicted by his rating difference with Spassky.

Jul-07-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  AgentRgent: <twinlark: <Octavia> <I'm sure elo could be improved by giving every win a positive score for examle.>

Every win does add points to a player's ratings.> I think Octavia meant that every <tournament> win should gain you rating points.

Jul-07-12  L13: <<twinlark: <Octavia> <I'm sure elo could be improved by giving every win a positive score for examle.>

Every win does add points to a player's ratings.> I think Octavia meant that every <tournament> win should gain you rating points.>

If that's what Octavia meant, then the idea is terrible.

Rating changes are always zero-sum games, and they can always be traced back to specific games against specific opponents.

Awarding additional points for tournament wins is just as arbitrary and nonsensical as awarding Elo points for having the best haircut at the tournament. It's just not something the Elo system is designed to measure.

Jul-07-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Marmot PFL: At any rate I thought there was a rule that the outright winner of a tournament would not lose rating points. Maybe that was USCF and I don't know if they still have it.
Jul-07-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Octavia: <Many of Nigel's opponents were weak by his standards> its not his standards we 're talking - its elos! I bet if Mr. Elo had known what his system was leading to, he'd have found an improvement. At the mo the system prevents strong players to enter week tournaments, which is absurd.

I certainly don't mean getting extra rewards for winning a tourney. I mean getting proper points for ANY game you play. Saying that someone is 600 points lower than you & calling that person much much weaker than the person 300 points lower is really arbitrary.

of cause the 600 is weaker than the 300, but by how much?

Jul-07-12  Jim Bartle: So, if I understand correctly, if a player rated 2700 defeats a player rated 2100, it's still calculated as if the opponent were rated 2300.
Jul-07-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  twinlark: <Jim> Correct. Similar system applies for calculating norms.

<Octavia> <of cause the 600 is weaker than the 300, but by how much?>

Much weaker. If memory serves me correctly, a difference of 300 means the stronger player would win 90% or more of the time, while you would not really expect the weaker player in a 600 point difference from ever defeating the stronger player, unless for some reason that player was greatly underrated. I can't recall a 2100 player drawing with a 2700 player let alone defeating them although it has probably happened on some (very) odd occasions.

The Elo system has its flaws, no doubt, but has stood the test of time and is also used in other sports. Here are a couple of articles that explain how the rating system, warts and all, works.

The first is fairly technical: http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail...

The second is a Wiki article which is less technical: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_ra...

Jul-07-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  alexmagnus: <I can't recall a 2100 player drawing with a 2700 player let alone defeating them>

2000 drawing with 2700 (and having a winning position mid-game):

B Hagen vs Carlsen, 2007

But yes, this happens rarely. As for the Elo system, the 400 point rule is absurd, mathematically. Why should one be rewarded for beating some patzers as if one beat someone just two classes below oneself?

Jul-07-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  alexmagnus: Also, look at the other side of it: why should someone winning an upset game again some super-strong player be underrewarded for that win?
Jul-07-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  twinlark: <alexmagnus> Are you sure that the converse actually applies? My impression was that the 400 point restriction only applies downward.
Jul-07-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  achieve: There were indeed two participants in Edmonton well below 2300, so I'd have needed to account for that in the calculations.

Thanks for the clarification.

Also, I'd think it to be only natural if a 1800 ranked player gains more rating points when he beats a 2500 player than when a 2100 ranked does... But I too am assuming, not knowing, that the 400-rule does not apply to the lower-ranked player.

Regarding upsets of the kind; when I went over all the results of Olympiads a few years back, it struck me that upset wins of 200-300 lower rated players were almost a daily occurrence. But I'd have to check again to see if my memory hasn't played tricks on me in this regard. Especially in the 1500-2100 range I remember seeing daily 200-300 point upsets. But it happens above that range as well, though less frequently. I'd have to check, though.

Jul-07-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Marmot PFL: <Also, I'd think it to be only natural if a 1800 ranked player gains more rating points when he beats a 2500 player than when a 2100 ranked does... But I too am assuming, not knowing, that the 400-rule does not apply to the lower-ranked player.>

I guess they figure that either one is just one fluke game so they cap the gains and losses.

Jul-07-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  twinlark: That's exactly what they do. I checked the FIDE Handbook and eventually found regulation 8.54, which says that when determining the rating change for a rated player:

<A difference in rating of more than 400 points shall be counted for rating purposes as though it were a difference of 400 points>

http://www.fide.com/component/handb...

Jul-08-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  twinlark: <achieve>

I found a link that calculates the probabilities of differently rated players. It seems the probability of a player ranked 200-300 higher than their opponents is 75-85%, which of course means a 15-25% probability for the lower rated player, which will happen with predictable frequency in a large event like the Olympiad. At 400+ it's about 92% and at 600+ about 99%:

http://www.ascotti.org/programming/...

But you wouldn't see many positive results for a player rated 600 less than his opponent, especially at the top level, as players with this sort of difference in their ratings would normally not meet after the first or second round of an Open, so the raw numbers of games played between such players would be very low.

It'd be interesting to see if there are any upsets between players with rating differentials of 600 points or more at the Olympiad.

I'm not sure though where the probability of a draw fits into this probability table. Calling <alexmagnus> or <frogbert>?

Jul-08-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  achieve: Thanks for that liink, Twinlark. And one of the reasons for"deceptive" rating difference is small number of available games, and how dated they are, relative inactivity, but in actuality hiding a lot of quality... That type of matchup with an active soundly rated person, van take place at such a large tournament, considering all the exotic countries that participate at Olympiads.

When I briiefly joined a club as a guest when I was about 19 I was ratingless, and was pitted against a slihghtly below average clubplayer, just to determine my strength. Following that win I met a few of the top players and was beaten to a pulp at a Blitz event, after which I was quickly back to my other sporting activities. My point is that the way I played in long time controls had them attribute a 1800 provisional rating to me, based on only 2 games of play, hehe, for the internal clubmember competition, to limit the damage I could do - I think normally novices were "set" at 1400. BUt let us not get too touchy with the rating business, after all as a young kid you play to win and gain confiidence with as a byproduct a rating to reflect your progress, always trying to beat the odds, not confirm them. Not fixating on the number, instead work on your game and just try to win whenever the chance is there.

Jul-08-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  achieve: Regarding Draw probabilities; they will of course diminish with growing rating gap - perhaps not even linearly, but as I said before I am mostly, wrongly, guessing, so for the. Accurate stuff we would have to turn to someone like Frogbert.

We'd need (to make) a few of them good old graphs with curves, Larkers, through some hard empirical gathering of data. ;)

Jul-08-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  alexmagnus: <re you sure that the converse actually applies? My impression was that the 400 point restriction only applies downward.>

It applies both ways, that's the "point"...

Jul-08-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  AgentRgent: <L13: Rating changes are always zero-sum games> This isn't always correct. Although I'm uncertain if FIDE has them, USCF players have a rating "floor" which means that at certain points they can lose games and NOT lose any points at all (if they are already at their "floor").
Jul-08-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Marmot PFL: <AgentRgent> USCF also has bonus points for exceptional tournaments. For every number of rounds there is a cutoff point (for instance 5 rounds = 22 points) and any gain above that level triggers a bonus equal to the difference between the points gained and the cutoff. I think the point is to move rapidly improving players up the ladder ASAP, USCF also says they need to correct a rating deflation that took place in the 90s.

The ideal is probably a slight, constant inflation, as gaining rating points incentivizes more frequent play. This is what the Fed also tries to do, as a slight, predictable inflation maximizes spending and investment. If it gets out of hand though and the gap between USCF and FIDE reaches hundreds of points nobody takes USCF ratings seriously anymore.

Jul-08-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Marmot PFL: Rating system link http://www.fpawn.com/uscfrating.html
Jul-08-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  alexmagnus: There are no floors in FIDE ratings. In FIDE ratings, the only non-zero-sum rating changes occur if two players with different K-factors play. I.e. either players on the opposite sides of 2400 or an "established" player against a player with only a few rated games.

As for USCF floors, they are a big hole which make the system of no value at all. Floors were introduced to prevent sandbagging, but a much more effective (and not leading to distortions) way to do it would be giving rating prizes based on the <maximum> rating achieved (i.e. if the USCF published both the actual and the maximum rating, without any floors).

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