< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 79 OF 393 ·
|Oct-18-04|| ||square dance: <eggman> well one problem with the referee idea is that if players are determined to get draws they will just play lines that are known to be draws. |
|Oct-18-04|| ||Eggman: Note, further, that if there are no SERIOUS objections to my suggestion then the whole POINTS SYSTEM stuff would be TOTALLY SUPERFLUOUS. |
|Oct-18-04|| ||Eggman: <<well one problem with the referee idea is that if players are determined to get draws they will just play lines that are known to be draws>>|
I've heard this kind of objection before, but making players go through so much trouble as to practically prearrange draws would very much reduce the number of draws (after all, you'd be pretty much forcing players to conspire and cheat, and surely far far fewer players would be willing to do that, let alone do so habitually), and in time the precedent thus set would, I believe, wind up almost wiping out these kinds of things. Players would get used to the idea of actually playing the game out, and such prearrangements would be unlikely to even enter their heads.
Even with so many GM draw today, the draw is not prearranged. The players don't USUALLY get together before hand to plan on a draw (though this does happen).
|Oct-18-04|| ||ray keene: <amondy>
dont get me wrong-i dont think kramnik is anywhere near fischer-except in his performance as world champion-in which case he was obviously much better than fischer who didnt play at all!!
devil games-lovely question
i will pick out three and tell you why
lasker 1914 because of his win v capa at st petersburg
fischer 1972 sui generis
kasparov 1987 because of last game in wcc v karpov
thats really a great question-thanks
|Oct-18-04|| ||ray keene: <eggman> your suggestion is pretty similar to the rule back in 1964 when you cdnt agree a draw without the arbiters permission. if he said no we tended to repeat moves-nothing he cd do about that-or shuffle aimlessly till we reached move 30.see for example a game between lawrence day and ray keene from the junior world championship jerusalem 1967. |
|Oct-18-04|| ||Eggman: <<if he said no we tended to repeat moves-nothing he cd do about that-or shuffle aimlessly till we reached move 30.>>|
I have no sympathy for the thirty-move rule, incidentally. The number of moves played is neither here nor there.
But, percentage-wise, how many professionals would be willing to embarrass themselves and the game (especially during a prestigious event like, say, Kasparov-Kasimdzhanov) by playing on for 150 moves like yourself and Mr. Day (for the background see L Day vs Keene, 1967)? And how often would a situation arise where the combatants were so mutually-benefitting from a draw like yourself and Mr. Day? Surely such situations happen, but only in a small minority of games. Surely in, say, the fourth round of Linares, you're not going to find Leko and Anand pulling such a stunt? Or am I wrong?
And is it always so easy to repeat moves, especially if the position isn't closed? Surely my suggestion would at least greatly reduce the number of draws, while reinforcing the spirit of the draw-agreement rule, and in-no-way changing the game?
|Oct-18-04|| ||templar: <eggman> you're right... it's a shame to have 16 move games on a championship level when we look at bco or mco with all their openings ending with infinity signs... these are the players that should bring new ideas to chess, not rehash old ones for the strategic purpose of a draw... personally I think we need the x number of wins system back and allow only x number of draws under the first time control per number of games... or something to that effect.... |
|Oct-18-04|| ||templar: <ray keene> has fide addressed how they will handle themselves after reunification it terms of discrimination as happened in Libya with Jewish players? |
Has there been a decision separating classical from speed from fischerrandom?
Done right they could market the three types of chess well it seems.... take classical like Kasp/Kasim to exotic "Kingly" style like the location in UAE...
take rapid to more public high profile locations to enhance public awareness
take fischerrandom to detention centers in say Japan...... i had to do that...... but seriously will there be a return to the purity of classic chess or is it in the works?
|Oct-18-04|| ||Eggman: It seems to me that promoting more than one type of chess is self-defeating ... it creates confusion. Making chess more followable, with identifiable events and a consistent format is the way to go. |
|Oct-18-04|| ||templar: one format only would need to be classical then imho... still many sports exist in multiple formats.... it's really how it's delivered/managed that makes it successful... |
|Oct-18-04|| ||ray keene: <eggman> i have a lot of sympathy for your idea since i sugggested something similar a while back with a panel of three wise men to say yeh or nay to draws.however-we are only at the start of this debate and sometimes it cures itself. for example the experts really didnt like the capa v alekhine match of 1927-far too technical-they much preferred it when alekhine and bogoljubow slashed at each other in 1929.who knows-after this match kramnik may find his feet and become a reformed character.very many thanks for your carefully considered ideas which are a valuable contribution to the debate. |
|Oct-18-04|| ||ray keene: <templar> i hate fischerrandom-i cant even get chess right and along comes someone to make it more difficult and forcing me to unlearn decades of hard earned opening theory. bad idea. if you want another form of chess play shogi or xiangqi-beautiful variants of chess hallowed by centuries of oriental culture. |
|Oct-18-04|| ||ray keene: fide-i will now make the following predictions
1 the kasparov kasi match will take place
2 kaspy will probably win
3 the kramnik kaspy match will probably take place some time late 2005 or early 2006
4 whoever wins will not take the prague system lying down-whether its kramnik or kasparov -and i predict kramnik-that champion of the soi disant unified title will then insist on a challenge being made to him directly-he wont go back into a pool where games are played off at fast rates. whether its kramnik or kaspy that person will be in a very strong position -exactly what fide has been tryig to avoid. leko wd have been less of a problem for them but imagine-kramnik with three world title wins behind him to back up his credibility or kasparov world champ for 15 years and on top again in an amazing comeback-these guys wont kow tow to fide and go into a group to defend their title-they will insist upon the ancient aristocratic rights of the incumbent!!
|Oct-18-04|| ||templar: <ray keene> my post was regarding fide using rapid chess as tie breakers in classic chess to decide outcomes... my feeling was if they believe in rapid they should spin it off and keep it separate... not mix the two... the fischerrandom was mentioned with tongue firmly planted in cheek... apologies if it set you off... |
|Oct-18-04|| ||ray keene: more on fide-jewish/israeli representation-at some point a jewish or israeli player with backbone and resources will take fide to court over this-in fact i heard that it already happened-if they continue to organise events where israeli/jewish players are discouraged they are heading for a disaster!! |
|Oct-18-04|| ||Chessical: <Raykeene> I thought that FIDE had arrived there several years ago, (and has had the time for return visits). |
|Oct-18-04|| ||Gypsy: < tamar: It is incredible how much thought you put into this. > Thanks Tamar. <...As a player though, it would be distracting to know that a draw as White could put me behind. I think it might skew the game itself.> Indeed, the point system is designed to knock players out of their current drawing comfort zone. I see no other path to change. |
And if there should be a change, I sincerely hope that the game would be skewed towards what some fans would term the "old-fashion chess". Players of already uncompromising styles, like Christiansen, Hodgson, J. Polgar, Kasparov, would be helped right off the bat. Players of super solid style, like Kramnik or Leko, would probably have to adjust their approach. Also openings like exchange French and exchange Slaw would probably become quite rare.
<Eggman> I am sorry I got under your skin as it seems. That was not my intention. Nor is my intention to <... change chess into some kind of chess variant or something > . Instead, I hope that the traditional, slow chess I grew to love forty odd years ago be preserved as much as possible, without rapid, blitz and bulet chess sudden-death shootouts. I like fast chess, but I consider time-to-think a wonderful luxury of life. And, for me, it is an essential part of our game. (Otherwise, <ughaibu's> earlier reccomendation, which takes away the draw completely, is a brilliant method of dealing with the fightless draw problem.)
As for your suggestion: It has been tried and failed. Moreover, I dislike it on a human level -- it treats players as incompetent juveniles. Had it worked, we could put up with that. Alas it does not seem to work.
|Oct-18-04|| ||ray keene: <templar> more or less everything fide does is a joke-i just hope they learn some lessons and that kaspy v khasi actually does take place-all this stuff in the khaleej times about 16 chess shaped hotels to accompany it in a multi billion dollar development sounds like megalomania to me-but perhaps i am out of touch!|
if you recall the roman senator cato used to end all his speeches with the words -cartago delenda est! well-a bas fischerrandom!! let me see how long i can keep it up.
|Oct-18-04|| ||ray keene: <chessical> amen to that-which is your favourite alekhine game by the way? |
|Oct-18-04|| ||ray keene: forgot-a bas fischerrandom! |
|Oct-18-04|| ||Larsker: <all this stuff in the khaleej times about 16 chess shaped hotels to accompany it in a multi billion dollar development sounds like megalomania to me-but perhaps i am out of touch!> I think we need a comment from mahmoudkubba about all this. He's our expert concerning Mecca and that part of the world. |
|Oct-18-04|| ||Chessical: <Raykeene> It may not be his most sophisticated game, but it impresses me for its sheer forcefulness: Tarrasch vs Alekhine, 1922 |
|Oct-18-04|| ||iron maiden: I'm a little late to the discussion on WC match formats, but here's my quick plan: First to win five or six games takes the title. To preserve the advantage for the world champion, I suggest that he automatically gets White in the first game. That way he has a better chance, however small the difference may be, of reaching that X number of wins first. |
|Oct-18-04|| ||templar: And though he took his life with his own hands, he made inevitable the ides of March...
16 chess shaped hotels... a pipe dream of someone who wishes to control chess not serve it... but I do like the sail shaped 7 star hotel in the UAE.... |
|Oct-18-04|| ||Gypsy: I'd like chime in on the <Devil's match> issue. To prosecute the game on the behalf of my sould, I'd also sellect 1.Lasker, 2.Fischer, and 3.Kasparov; in that order and for the same reasons as stated previously. My current question is: who to put 4.-6. in the lineup? |
I reckon I'd like to have 4.Bronstein, during 1953 black win with Reschevsky, upon Kremlin orders. He is one of few ever cunning enough to outfox Mr. Devil. Next, 5.Karpov; tough like nails and Devil would underestimate him. And then 6.Korchnoi; he would would not yield an inch and probably would scare Devil to death. :-)
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