< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 6 OF 85 ·
|Jun-20-04|| ||qqq: <iron maiden: My ten greatest players who never became WC: |
1. Viktor Korchnoi
2. Paul Keres
3. Samuel Reshevsky
4. Seigbert Tarrasch
5. Viswanathan Anand (yet)
6. Reuben Fine
7. Akiba Rubinstein
8. David Bronstein
9. Salo Flohr
10. Efim Geller >
I beg to differ..i believe Anand won a legitimate WCC in new delhi/tehran 2000. Its not his fault if kasparov defaulted( i.e didnt take part).
With that stance even khalifman and karpov('98) wouldnt be classified as world champions.
I believe anand has been treated unfairly by FIDE and many players(no offense) who believe that he isnt a world champion. No wonder he forefeited the current WCC in libya.
|Jun-20-04|| ||Everett: qqq, some good points.
Many believe that khalifman and karpov ('98) should not be considered champions at that time. Kasparov took the WC with him in '93.
So, since '72 according to some:
Though another group would still consider Kasparov the champ.
Unfortunately, Anand has been very unlucky, in that he has not been given as many opportunities as others to play for the championship. FIDE treatment of him is an example of exactly why their WCC doesn't hold water anymore.
itonmaiden, I like your list, though I'm surprised that Fine is so high. Any thoughts on Schlecter?
|Jun-20-04|| ||iron maiden: <Everett> Schlechter? I felt really bad about leaving him out. Lots of brilliant games, but when it came to results, he was too poor of a tournament player to warrant a place. I would place him right behind the eleven I gave. Larsen might be the only other non-WC I'd put ahead of him. A further note on my list: I only count players who were active during or after the time when the official title came into existence, so Morphy doesn't count.|
<qqq> When I said WC, I was basing my definition on the terms that Everett gave (Kasparov took the title away in '93, and it has since passed to Kramnik). I am, however, a big fan of Anand and I hope and believe he can prove that he is WC-caliber if he gets another title match.
|Jun-20-04|| ||madlydeeply: David Bronstein goes before Reuben Fine on that has-been list |
|Jun-21-04|| ||Knezh: If you want my opinion, i think that Fine shouldn't be in the top 10 list.. He never had major successes aside from AVRO (1938). Fine also gave up competitive chess before he could fully realize his potential. I'd sub Fine with either Zukertort or Schlechter |
|Jun-21-04|| ||square dance: <qqq> anand did win a WC tounramnt, but was never the recognized WC in the minds of most people so i think it is fair to put him on the best to never win it list. |
|Jun-21-04|| ||square dance: <everett> anand had two WC matches ('95 &'98) so i think he has had more oppurtunities than most players. |
|Jun-21-04|| ||qqq: <SD> could you tell me why he was never the recognized WC in the minds of most people?|
like i said, its not his fault if kasparov defaulted.
<anand had two WC matches ('95 &'98) so i think he has had more oppurtunities than most players.>
That isnt exactly a fair statement..correct me if i'm wrong but i take it that you are saying the follwing :
Had anand won in 98 , he would have had the opportunity to become a legitimate wcc even though kasparov didnt take part?
so whats the difference between wcc '98 and wcc 2000?
|Jun-21-04|| ||acirce: <great non-WC players> How about Polugaevsky? |
|Jun-21-04|| ||Legend: Keres was the greatest! And what about Leonid Stein? |
|Jun-21-04|| ||Geronimo: Where do great chess players/teachers fit in. Any room for a Nimzovich or a Chigorin on this list? Perhaps their competition play doesn't stand up, but their contributions to the game go way beyond their 'official' records. |
|Jun-21-04|| ||square dance: <qqq> anand was never the recognized WC because he won fide's rapid KO tourney.|
as for the second part, im saying that he played in two WC matches: '95 against kasparov, and '98 against karpov. had he won in '98 i dont think anand would have been considered the real WC, but it was still a WC match. i view these last few years kind of like boxing; you may have more than one champ, but you (usually) know who the real one is.
as for the difference between '98 and '00: '98 was a match, which is how the chess WC has always been decided, except for 1948 of course, and '00 was a KO tourney using fide's rapid time controls.
this is my opinion, and it seems to be the opinion of most people as well. this does not automatically mean that i am right, but i think you get what im saying.
|Jun-21-04|| ||Everett: square dance, you make a very good point, that Anand has had only one shot at the title in '95. '98 wasn't legit (not against Kasparov) and otherwise has not had the opportunity to play for it again, so my "lack of opportunity" still makes sense to me.|
Perhaps this fixation on the WC is over-rated. Certainly tennis thrives through personal matchups at big tournaments, yet do not have a direct championship cycle. Hasn't Kramnik voiced such an opinion?
Of course it's easy for him, "holding" the title.
|Jun-21-04|| ||Isolani: Richard Reti, Jan Timman, Lajos Portisch, and Veselin Topolov could be considered honorable mentions. However I would definitely put Nimzowitsch in the top ten because many chess historians claim that at his peak he was the third best in the world behind Capablanca and Alekhine. |
|Jun-21-04|| ||iron maiden: <I would definitely put Nimzowitsch in the top ten because many chess historians claim that at his peak he was the third best in the world behind Capablanca and Alekhine>|
WHAT ABOUT LASKER!!! Seriously though, Nimzo could be argued onto a lot of top-ten lists, but, unlike most of the others on my list, he was never in a real position to challenge for the world championship. Neither were Reti, Portisch, Topalov or even Timman, really.
Regarding Fine: he was generally recognized as being on the same level as Keres and Reshevsky for several years, and his joint win at AVRO is overlooked by a lot of people. I think that, in general, he is one of the most underrated players in chess history.
|Jun-21-04|| ||Gypsy: There are several worthy cathegories to consider here. All my orders are chronological.|
Players who came agonizingly close to actually winning WC: Chigorin, Schlechter, Bronstein, and Korchnoi.
Players that were arguably the strongest players of some era (say, 1-2 years) but never world champions: Zukertort, Tarrasch, Pillsbury, Rubinstein, Keres, Boleslavski, Bronstein, Reshevski, and Anand (I suspect Anand is the strongest player right at this time!).
Players that were arguably the strongests non-champions of some era, but were passed over and never got a title shot: Pillsbury, Maroczy, Rubinstein, Nimzovich, Flohr, Keres, Fine, Eliskases, Boleslavski, Geller.
Players that could have easily gotten a title shot on the strength of their long-term excellence, and that are not already members of any of the above cathegory: Reti, Najdorf, Stein, Larsen, Portish, Polugaevski.
The greatest players ever not to be the WC? 1-3. Keres, Bronstein, and Korchnoi--with little to nothing to distinguish between them.
|Jun-21-04|| ||iron maiden: So what we're learning here is that there are too many players who never got a chance at the world championship. Too many even for a top-ten list. I felt bad about having to leave out Geller, Larsen, Schlechter, Zukertort, Nimzowitch, Chigorin, Stein and others. |
I'd also like to add another criteria to <Gypsy>'s: players who might have become WC if they had not stopped playing prematurely (for whatever reason). Of players not yet mentioned, I'd shove Sultan Khan and Rudolf Charousek into this category, along with Pillsbury and maybe even Kamsky.
I'm a little surprised that no one's yet mentioned Nezhmetdinov; I've seen him on a handful of all-time top ten lists (not just non-WC lists).
|Jun-21-04|| ||Gypsy: Fine point, <iron maiden>. Illnesses took out of WC running Pillsbury, Charousek, Stein. WW1 terminated WC runs of Schlechter, Duras, and Rubinstein. WW2 stoped Keres, Fine, Eliskases, and killed candidate caliber players Junge and Belavenetz. Sultan Khan chess-playing career was especially amazing; it lasted only the span of his master's 2-year visit to Europe. And Kamsky should have been on one or two of my above lists, but I forgot about him.|
(With Nezh, I'd be happy if he at least got a retroactive GM title; and the same with Bohatyrchuk.)
|Jun-27-04|| ||Sylvester: I read last year that a three volume collection by Korchnoi was coming out in early 2004. Does anyone have any information on this? |
|Jun-27-04|| ||Knezh: <Gypsy> There has been a lot of talk about Bohatyrchuk, but i am not even able to locate him on this site. Any background on that guy, perhaps? |
|Jun-28-04|| ||Gypsy: Sorry <Knezh>, his page is under <Bogatyrchuk> here. Since I wrote my last comment, lots of great information about Dr. Bohatirchuk (he apparently prefered this spelling) surfaced via IM Lawrence Day. You will find some of it on Day's own page, some on the Bogatyrchuk page. Do check it out! |
|Jun-29-04|| ||Knezh: Thanx a lot for that helpful info, <Gypsy> |
|Jun-29-04|| ||Gypsy: Most velcome <Knezh>. |
|Jun-30-04|| ||qqq: why didnt Viktor take part in the libya tourney? |
|Jun-30-04|| ||sire: Victor was invited to Libya. He could not go, I dont know the reason. It was Magnus Carlsen who got his place. |
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