< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 5 OF 5 ·
|Oct-31-15|| ||Tabanus: I just discovered that the whole testament made by Samuel Meyer Popert (in 1847) and other papers on the Meyer Wolf Popert (d. 1813) fortune are collected at http://interactive.ancestry.com/170..., about 90 pages.|
I clicked through it all, and no mention of any Wolf or William. Meyer Wolf Popert's wife Hanelle died in 1838. They had three children: Samuel Meyer Popert (d. 1851), Joseph and Johann. The two latter still living in 1852.
The tree at http://gw.geneanet.org/silentist?la... has at least two errors then: "Simon Meyer d. 1851" should be Samuel Meyer, and Joseph did not "d. 1838".
https://books.google.no/books?id=4i... (the text from 1805) mentions Wolf Popert and others but I don't understand the German there.
|Oct-31-15|| ||Tabanus: And Meyer Wolf Popert (d. 1813) was the only son of Wolf Levin Popert (d. 1791). So Wolf/William may fit in somewhere else, say as the son of Samson Popert, or Moise Popert who has also the right age (on the list at http://gw.geneanet.org/silentist?la...).|
|Oct-31-15|| ||thomastonk: <Tabanus> I cannot check anything at ance$try.|
<They had three children: Samuel Meyer Popert (d. 1851), Joseph and Johann.> Is it possible that only living children were named? A testament written in 1847 would not mention our man, of course. But what is with the other documents?
<(the text from 1805) mentions Wolf Popert and others but I don't understand the German there.> Please see the end of my H W Popert. The text is a mixture of juridical German and Latin, and the names from Levin to Samson are the children of Meyer Wolf Popert.
|Oct-31-15|| ||Tabanus: <tt> Samuel Meyer Popert's testament is very long, 13 paragraphs and both in German and in English. Dated Hamburg, 21 June 1847. I think the English version is made after his death by the public notary. It mentions his wife "Emilie, born Oppenheim" and "my tree daughters already married": "Friederike, married Schröder, Agnes, married Thöl (?) and Therese, married Brinckmann", and a fourth unmarried youngest daughter, Emma Marie.|
I think this must be the family arriving to England in July 1836, cf. <It can also be "S. M. Popert">.
The firm "Popert von Halle" (apparently in Hamburg) and "my partner Mr. Joel Aron von Halle" is also mentioned.
<Is it possible that only living children were named?> Yes, I should think so. But too late today, I'll review again tomorrow.
|Nov-01-15|| ||thomastonk: With the name <von Halle> appearing more often, I think I should add something about the paragraph on page 67, i.e. https://books.google.no/books?id=4i.... It states that Meyer Wolf Popert relinquished his claim on the heir in favor of his children; and on the other side two men became wardens of his children, one of them <Wolf Elias von Halle>, the other one Levin Abraham Goldschmidt.|
|Nov-01-15|| ||Tabanus: After the testament comes various testimonies to it, and to the death of Samuel Meyer, and to the true translations into English, and then (as I see now) a joint letter from Joseph and Johann Popert (partly cited earlier):|
<And Whereas the said Meyer Wolff Popert was late of the City of Hamburgh, Merchant, and died on the sixteenth day of January one thousand eight hundred and thirteen Intestate leaving behind him Hanelle Popert, Widow, his Relict, Samuel Meyer Popert, Joseph Popert and Johann Popert his natural lawful and only children and together the only persons entitled to his Personal Estate and Effects. And whereas the said Hanelle Popert is since dead as also the said Samuel Popert without having administered at least in England to the Effects of the said Meyer Wolff Popert, And whereas the said Joseph Popert and Johann Popert are now residing at the City of Hamburgh
Now know all Men by these Present that we the said Joseph Popert and Johann Popert the surviving natural and lawful children of the said Meyer Wolff Popert for divers good causes and considerations us thereunto especially moving do hereby nominate constitute and appoint Louis Liskenne of Nr 3 Torrington Street, Torringtom Square in the County of Middlesex Gentleman our true and lawful Attorney for us and in our names and on our behalf to appear before the Right Honorable Stephen Lushington, Doctor of Laws ...> and a great deal more, but hard to understand. It is signed Joseph and Johann Popert, 3 Sept. 1852.
|Nov-01-15|| ||Tabanus: So the two brothers trusted everything to this Louis Liskenne.|
Now follows another long note where Liskenne appears before the Consistory Court of London applying for his right to administer Meyer Wolf Poperts English leftovers, one hundred pounds stock in the Bank of England (worth 300 pounds according to another form) on behalf of Joseph and Johann, since nobody have made claim to these English stocks since 1809 and until 1850 (i. e. when the dying Samuel made his brothers aware of them).
Phew. With reservations, the text is difficult. I'll try to read further.
|Nov-01-15|| ||Tabanus: I find no German letter from Joseph and Johann. It is in English and starts awkwardly after the first paragraph cited above. It is apparently made with ready-made signatures (Joseph Popert, Johann Popert). These are then overwritten with another pen (but it seems to be the same names underneath), presumably by Joseph and/or Johann themselves.|
Liskenne appeared before the court only a few days later, not before Lushington but rather Frederick Thomas Pratt, who is "Doctor of Laws and Surrogate in his Chambers", and got his signature.
There is more, but probably not relevant to our man.
|Nov-01-15|| ||Tabanus: The "Belgium, Antwerp Police Immigration Index, 1840-1930" has this entry: <59898 Popert Wolff alias William>. No date given.|
|Nov-01-15|| ||Tabanus: Unfortunately, that record is from 1886. Popert, Wolff, alias William, born 1861, his father Louis-Abraham Popert born in Altona 1816.|
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3... should work, try 940 in the Image box.
|Nov-01-15|| ||Tabanus: FamilySearch has a record I can't find elsewhere:
Emily Popert, 45, living in St Mary Lambeth, Surrey, England, in 1841, together with foreign-born John, Agnes, and Gabriela Thale, and Katherine Mortel.
|Nov-02-15|| ||jnpope: Lots of interesting stuff, hopefully <"Die Popert-Chronik : Familie Popert in Hamburg und Altona"> can help solve the mystery.|
|Nov-02-15|| ||Tabanus: I think Emily Popert may be Emilie, the wife of Samuel Meyer Popert. Living together with her daughter Agnes Thale (= Thöl).|
I think we better wait for the book :)
|Nov-14-15|| ||edo.chess: An interesting discussion and investigation! Since I have John Townsend's two books, I can at least fill in the information on Popert to be found there. The books are:|
Notes on the Life of Howard Staunton (self-published, 2011)
Historical Notes on Some Chess Players (self-published, 2014)
Only 100 copies of each was printed, apparently, but you might be able to get copies from the author, or from Tony Peterson at http://www.chessbooks.co.uk .
In the book on Staunton (p.44), Townsend says that 'W. Popert' appears in the records of the London Chess Club (to be found in the London Metropolitan Archives). On 5 Nov. 1835, he is listed as proposing a new member to the club. Townsend also points out his discovery of 'William M. Popert' in the 1841 census and tentatively identifies him as the chess player.
In Townsend's second book, 'Historical Notes...', he has a section on 'William M. Popert' on pp.8-10. Here he says "a fuller look at the club's records has turned suspicion into certainty" (p.9). He says that 'W. Popert' appears in earlier records, including his election as a member on 5 Aug. 1830. His address is given as 1 Leadenhall Street in another entry (presumably also in 1830?). 'W. Popert' appears many other times in the records, but from 1839 until 1841/42 his name is given as 'W.M. Popert' (pp.9-10). Townsend says (p.10) that Popert lived in Fenchurch St. in 1841. Regarding William Greenwood Walker's listing of 'H.W. Popert', Townsend points out that Walker's book had numerous errors.
Townsend's book goes into more detail, but the above are the main points for purposes of identification. There's a lot of interesting material on other early players in the book, too (e.g. Sarratt), and I recommend it.
|Nov-25-15|| ||Tabanus: <I have already ordered a copy, but it will take one or two weeks.> 3,5 weeks now!|
|Dec-11-15|| ||jnpope: Are they still writing that book?|
|Jan-16-16|| ||jnpope: I have found a John Popert who played some chess, but he lived beyond 1846/1847 into the 1870s and wasn't very strong (and I find no evidence he ever visited London). So either Bachmann confused the "MM John and Popert" line or he assumed John Popert was Staunton's opponent in the 1840s.|
I was also able to run down the Wolff Levin Popert family tree (much like thomastonk did) as well as the tree of a Philip Popert (both families spent time in London before 1845). Neither tree produces a William M. Popert or a H. W. Popert.
At this point I am now satisfied that Bachmann's "John" is wrong. Coupled with Townsend finding a W. Popert in the London Chess Club archives I am now reasonably convinced William M. Popert was Staunton's opponent and not a John Popert (per Bachmann) or H. W. Popert (the listed subscriber).
As for H. W. Popert, it is either an error as Townsend suspects, or perhaps H. W. Popert was just a relative who wanted a copy of the book? We won't know for certain until someone tracks down the William M. Popert family tree to see if a H. W. Popert turns up.
I would still like to find a birth/death certificate (or grave marker) for William M. Popert so we can solidify some dates on this mysterious man.
|Feb-21-16|| ||Tabanus: At least the book exists: https://books.google.no/books/about....|
|Jul-07-16|| ||Paarhufer: Some people could be interested in this article: http://www.schachbund.de/news/w-m-p...|
|Jul-07-16|| ||jnpope: <Paarhufer: <Some people could be interested in this article:>>|
After reading that article I'm sold on Wolf Meyer Popert, aka Wilhelm Meyer Popert, aka William Meyer Popert, born 19 March 1795, died 3 September 1846 in Hamburg (so the "H" was probably just "Herr" in William Greenwood Walker's book which was mistakenly taken for an initial when the list of subscribers was formatted out alphabetically by last name).
Nice to know we were circling the right family tree. The article cites a lot of the same sources we were digging through. I'm glad Thomas Niessen was able to fill-in some dates.
Hopefully someone with better German language skills can make use of this article to generate a bio for this page.
|Jul-08-16|| ||Tabanus: <jnpope> I no longer have editor rights, so it it won't be me. Perhaps CG can make use of one of their house trolls instead.|
It looks like <thomastonk> = Thomas Niessen, the author.
|Jul-08-16|| ||jnpope: <<thomastonk> = Thomas Niessen>|
I did not know that. Now it makes a lot more sense! I see he hasn't posted on this site since January... and Tab, you are no longer a CG editor?
Is this place chasing folks away? I have a very long ignore list these days. If it wasn't for that feature I probably would have left a while ago myself... is there another site users are migrating too?
|Jul-11-16|| ||Tabanus: What should be the CG name?
Wolf Meyer Popert? Wolff Meyer Popert? William Meyer Popert? Wolf (William) Meyer Popert? Assuming nobody else will, I can send a correction slip.
|Jul-11-16|| ||jnpope: <<Tabanus:> What should be the CG name?>|
Good question. I have no idea what the CG preference is for assigning names. Name at time of birth? Name commonly used in life? Name at time of death?
Steinitz has the same first name as Popert and CG went with Wilhelm instead of Wolf (birth name) or William (name at death and appears as such on his grave stone).
I have no idea what iterations Popert went through with his name or what may appear on his grave stone (our luck it is probably written in Hebrew so it becomes a translation issue).
|Jul-13-16|| ||Tabanus: Wolf Meyer Popert it is! It can be changed, if necessary.|
Can someone please fill in dob and dod? Born 19 March 1795, died 3 September 1846. And thanks to <thomastonk> for excellent research.
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