< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 6299 OF 6299 ·
|Oct-30-14|| ||thegoodanarchist: <Shams: <jls> <A guy with a fever of 103 degrees, and abdominal pain rated 8/10, with an exclamation mark next to it. Let's not forget the minor details that make the US medical system the best in the world...>|
I'm not sure what the exclamation mark is supposed to signify,>
It means it wasn't written by Jake Jarmel
|Oct-30-14|| ||thegoodanarchist: <Colonel Mortimer: <America's Drones Are Still Killing Scores of Innocents|
ISIS has revived our dependence on drones. We must not let it.
Should America be killing people in other countries with which we are not at war? What constitutional framework allows the President and spy agencies to be judge, jury and executioner? Where only four percent of victims are even "linked" to Al Qaeda, what role are the killings , playing in inciting warfare and making anti-American enemies? Why do national leaders--in the White House, the Pentagon and Congress--believe that so-called military "solutions" are the only way to address global hot spots? <<<<And why is it that <<<>>every> time they see something they don't like, they feel the urge to bomb it?>>>>>>
every time huh? got any evidence? LOL
|Oct-30-14|| ||Colonel Mortimer: This is what the Egyptian army of junta leader Sisi is doing to people in Sinai..|
WARNING: THIS IN NOT PLEASANT.
As reminder to my American friends here who believe their government spreads freedom and democracy - the junta of Sisi is backed by the US government who supported the coup and continue to provide him with weapons and political cover.
Is this how you wish your country to be viewed around the world? As a supporter of ruthless dictatorships and terrorist regimes?
|Oct-30-14|| ||Colonel Mortimer: <thegoodanarchist:> <<<<And why is it that <<<>>every> time they see something they don't like, they feel the urge to bomb it?>>>>>>|
every time huh? got any evidence? LOL>
You'll have to ask U.S. Representative Alan Grayson - he co-wrote the article.
I wish the innocent victims of US drones could share your mirth.
|Oct-30-14|| ||cormier: nite nite gs ... ths G|
|Oct-30-14|| ||zanzibar: <<CM> This is what the Egyptian army of junta leader Sisi is doing to people in Sinai..|
WARNING: THIS IN NOT PLEASANT. As reminder to my American friends here who believe their government spreads freedom and democracy [...]>
OK, I watched it. I've seen first hand examples of such brutality. I didn't like seeing it in person, and I don't believe I'm a better person for watching your recommended video.
What's your point? That the US is behind this? Or that the US is culpable in some fashion for it?
You might as well put the responsibility on God for creating man with a nature so easily disposed towards sadism.
This is an example of your extremism - that to make a point you would implicate the US however slyly and implicitly (just a "reminder" after all) by connecting the US to such abominable behavior.
I reject such any such connection in this case.
Which reminds me. What are the exact "rules" for debate here on <Rogoff> my dear <CM>?
Who wrote them? Not I, methinks. And so, why should I, or <JB>, or anybody adhere to them, if they were to exist beyond the rhetorical?
|Oct-31-14|| ||Colonel Mortimer: <zanzibar:> <What's your point? That the US is behind this? Or that the US is culpable in some fashion for it?>|
Do you feel comfortable that America as an upholder of democracy and freedom should be supporting ruthless dictatorships and terrorist regimes?
<This is an example of your extremism - that to make a point you would implicate the US however slyly and implicitly (just a "reminder" after all) by connecting the US to such abominable behavior.>
Do I need remind you that US law explicitly prohibits the sale of weapons to terrorist regimes? Do you think it's okay for your government to break its own laws by providing military assistance to the junta in Egypt or Israel for that matter?
<Which reminds me. What are the exact "rules" for debate here on <Rogoff> my dear <CM>?>
You tell me. I thought it was about making cohesive arguments based on evidence. Or is it about playing the man rather than the ball?
|Oct-31-14|| ||zanzibar: <CM> You're moving the football, as the old saying goes.|
What does that video you showed have to do with US weapons? Were the batons used to beat the two men US supplied? How about the footwear?
Do you think that connecting the video to US foreign policy is playing "the man" or "the ball"?
|Oct-31-14|| ||Colonel Mortimer: <Zanzibar> <Do you think that connecting the video to US foreign policy is playing "the man" or "the ball"?>|
^^ *Goal post shift alert.*
Is this your contribution in defence of your government supplying weapons to a terrorist regime?
|Oct-31-14|| ||Colonel Mortimer: <Kerry Goes to Egypt to Support Murderous Dictator Sisi: 5 U.S.-Funded Nations That Torture, Execute and Jail With Impunity|
U.S. military aid goes to wildly abusive regimes.>
<The United States has long funded governments that systematically abuse human rights. Over the weekend, Secretary of State John Kerry showed how that is still true when he visited Egypt and pledged American support for a regime that came to power in a coup.>
|Oct-31-14|| ||zanzibar: <CM> Come on.
Let's review the rules.
Cohesive or coherent?
You showed a brutal video, you claimed it somehow purports to be connected with US foreign policy.
I see police abuse. It happens in every country. I've posted about US police abuse on this forum.
Now, if you want to lay some foundation (as in legal foundation) about the video, its context supposed connection to US foreign policy, then please do so.
You haven't, and until you do you can assert as many times as you want, but I'm still not buying it.
And the man and ball metaphor was introduced by you. I haven't shifted a thing - I'm still wondering about the video.
Tell me more about it (I don't read Arabic - and there wasn't much commentary in the webm download I used to avoid having to sign into youtube).
|Oct-31-14|| ||zanzibar: <CM> Should we begin discussing the Egyptian situation? Let's back up to the people's revolt against the Muslim Brotherhood then...|
|Oct-31-14|| ||Colonel Mortimer: <zanzibar:> <You showed a brutal video, you claimed it somehow purports to be connected with US foreign policy.>|
Did I? Re-read my post.
<Now, if you want to lay some foundation (as in legal foundation) about the video, its context supposed connection to US foreign policy, then please do so.
You haven't, and until you do you can assert as many times as you want, but I'm still not buying it.>
My point was quite clear. The US supports terrorist regimes and ruthless dictatorships by providing them with military aid.
This is expressively forbidden under US law for obvious reasons.
Deny this all you want in the face of the evidence I have presented.
Now my question to you, which you keep leaping away from..
Do you feel it's okay for America as an upholder of democracy and freedom to be supporting ruthless dictatorships and terrorist regimes?
'Yes' or 'no' as my detractors would say:)
|Oct-31-14|| ||zanzibar: <<><Who is a terrorist?><>> |
< [...] there is no international consensus on the legal definition of terrorism.>
So again <CM>, you haven't probably laid the foundation for the debate, and are merely asserting that the current regime in Egypt is a terrorist organization.
I still am wondering about the video that precipitated this entire exchange. What is the context, why should it be viewed as some demonstration beyond just the apparent abuse that is evident.
Why did you show it, what did you hope it demonstrated for us? Can you connect the dots? It just seems like an extreme attempt at sensationalism to me without its context.
Is there any footage of the 30 Egyptian soldiers killed recently in the Sinai? Is there a potential connection?
<In 2012, it became the first democratically elected political party in Egypt, but it is considered a terrorist organization by the governments of Bahrain, Egypt, Russia, Syria, Saudi Arabia and United Arab Emirates. However, the Brotherhood insists it is a peaceful organisation, pointing to its democratic elections, and has consistently renounced violence. Its top leader is on record as saying that the group "condemns violence and violent acts".>
Others view the previous regime in Egypt as being terrorist.
After Morsi was elected the US began to soften its definition of the group as a terrorist organization, in the interests of cooperation with the peoples of Egypt, with whom the US has had a long standing cooperative relationship.
<<>Who represents the people in Egypt?<>>
<<2013 mass protests and coup d'état>
<June 2013 Egyptian protests and 2013 Egyptian coup d'état>
A youth group known as Tamarod, Arabic for "Rebel", collected 22 million signatures calling for Morsi to step down. By 30 June, on the first anniversary of the election of Morsi, millions of Egyptians flooded the streets of Cairo with tens of thousands of protesters surrounding the presidential palace in the Heliopolis suburb demanding the resignation of Morsi. A military source claimed that the number of protestors reached as many as 14 million making it the largest in Egypt's history.The events escalated forcing the military to announce that it would intervene on behalf of the protesters.>
|Oct-31-14|| ||zanzibar: <CM> Do your homework on the video, instead of trying to call me out on coming up short. |
I'll check back later - if you added some content we can go from there.
And please reread my posts as well - you haven't explained the context of the video, or how it connects.
|Oct-31-14|| ||Colonel Mortimer: I'm talking about the current Egyptian regime, I have no fondness for the previous government, even though it was democratically elected.|
However, the current regime under Sisi is a sham of democracy. It is a ruthless dictatorship that terrorises its own people.
Do you feel it's okay for America as an upholder of democracy and freedom to give military aid to a ruthless dictatorships and terrorist regimes?
Yes or No.
Most people would have no hesitation in responding. Is this some sort of moral dilemma for you?
|Oct-31-14|| ||Colonel Mortimer: <zanzibar:> <I'll check back later - if you added some content we can go from there.>|
The evidence doesn't go away by dint of you ignoring it. You haven't read the article I posted have you?
Before I post more evidence, I guess I'll have to spoonfeed you some excerpts from the article I posted above..
<Sisi’s election came in the midst of a massive crackdown on political dissent that has included the killing of Muslim Brotherhood activists and the jailing of other secular activists who sparked the 2011 revolution that overthrew another U.S.-backed dictator, Hosni Mubarak.>
<Kerry pledged that the U.S. would fully renew ties to the Egyptian regime. The Obama administration has at times criticized Sisi for the stifling of dissent, though it never amounted to much more than rhetoric. Kerry’s visit indicated that the U.S. would continue to provide Egypt with $1.3 billion in military aid, a portion of which was suspended after Egyptian security forces carried out the coup and killed hundreds of unarmed protesters affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood in August 2013.>
<That money will fund the weapons and equipment the Egyptian security forces use to keep a tight lid on political activism against the government. Since the military coup, Egypt’s armed forces have killed more than 3,000 people and jailed thousands more. On June 23rd, three journalists from Al Jazeera English were sentenced to seven to ten years on trumped-up charges of conspiring with the Muslim Brotherhood--now a banned political group deemed “terrorists”--and harming national security. And earlier this month, the prominent activist Alaa Abd El Fattah was sentenced to 15 years in jail for allegedly putting together a protest that violated a law banning demonstrations.>
<The arming of Egypt’s security forces fits into a long-standing pattern of U.S. funding for repressive regimes in the Middle East and elsewhere who are fully aligned with American goals. Here are 4 other repressive governments that are funded by American taxpayer dollars.>
I recommend you read the rest of the article..
So even in the absence of the video evidence I posted, the current Egyptian regime doesn't look very good at all does it?
Why does America continue to send military aid to regimes like this? Do you think these actions are compatible with America's aims of spreading freedom and democracy? By supporting and encouraging terrorist regimes and brutal dictatorships?
|Oct-31-14|| ||thegoodanarchist: <<<<Colonel Mortimer: <thegoodanarchist:> <<<<And why is it that <<<>>every> time they see something they don't like, they feel the urge to bomb it?>>>>>>|
every time huh? got any evidence? LOL>
You'll have to ask U.S. Representative Alan Grayson - he co-wrote the article.>
Ah yes, YOU POSTED IT, but then you hide behind the claim that you didn't write it yourself! Using a loophole to tell yourself that you aren't being hypocritical is just that - using a loophole.
I doubt Jim Bartle or any others will see it that way. Basically, you are imitating <OCF> - you are hiding behind a loophole, and a weak one at that.
I love it when I win!
|Oct-31-14|| ||Colonel Mortimer: <thegoodanarchist:> <Ah yes, YOU POSTED IT, but then you hide behind the claim that you didn't write it yourself! Using a loophole to tell yourself that you aren't being hypocritical is just that - using a loophole.>|
Yes I agree with the premise of the article as a whole. Does that mean I should have edited it or introduced caveats to protect myself from trivial nitpicking?
<I love it when I win!>
Good for you!
Incidentally, are you familiar with Danth's Law?
"If you have to insist that you've won an Internet argument, you've probably lost badly."
|Oct-31-14|| ||PhilFeeley: <Jim Bartle: This guy is grade-A nuts. >|
The trouble is the sentiment is understandable. Human rights should be a priority all over the world, yet isn't. The problem is, human rights cannot be established by war. All that seems to do is create more terrorists.
|Oct-31-14|| ||Colonel Mortimer: <PhilFeeley:> +1|
|Oct-31-14|| ||moronovich: <"If you have to insist that you've won an Internet argument, you've probably lost badly.">|
|Oct-31-14|| ||ljfyffe: <as an upholder of democracy and freedom>
As Orwell made clear though his novel 1984,
those in the control of militarist-states today do not even pretend to believe in democracy and freedom.....however, that does not stop them from telling the people otherwise.
|Oct-31-14|| ||Colonel Mortimer: US Christian extremist performs decapitation..
|Oct-31-14|| ||Colonel Mortimer: <ljfyffe:> <militarist-states today do not even pretend to believe in democracy and freedom.....however, that does not stop them from telling the people otherwise.>|
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