< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 6740 OF 6740 ·
|Jan-26-15|| ||Abdel Irada: [Continued from last post]
<devere: George W Bush fired Donald Rumsfeld as Defense Secretary, and refused Dick Cheney's earnest plea to pardon his close friend Scooter Libby before leaving office. To describe Bush as the puppet of either man seems seriously inaccurate.>
Agreed and also not.
As I said, Bush's is a strong personality. He would not have taken orders from anyone.
But he was also, I think, extraordinarily easily influenced by clever manipulators who knew how to play on his weaknesses and idees fixes. (Very like Ronald Reagan in this respect.)
<I believe that George W Bush's most serious mistake as President was to insist that the enemy that attacked the USA on 9/11 was "terrorism" rather than radical Islam. This unfortunate euphemism allowed Saudi Arabia, the home of most of the 9/11 attackers, to continue its extensive financial support to the spread of radical Islam. The war on "terrorism" euphemism was adopted by Bush's successor as President, with the result that the USA has never officially identified the adversary we are actually confronting.>
This was no "mistake"; it was a very deliberate choice to define our "enemy" in such vague terms that the war need never end.
To identify "radical Islam" as the enemy, meanwhile, would also have entailed facing our role as Viktor Frankenstein, being asked to confront the threat posed by his monster when he was busy in the lab making more of them.
All of this is done for reasons other than those released for public consumption; as a libertarian, you are surely aware of this.
We should always be wary when someone in power who wants *more* power starts declaring war on abstractions. The real enemy is likely to be our freedom.
<Rhetoric aside, it is difficult to distinguish the policies of Bush from those of his successor as President.>
This is a point I've made dozens of times; apparently we don't disagree on *everything*.
<Perhaps we need to have the White House water supply tested for mind-altering contaminants.>
The whole process by which politicians *reach* the White House is mind-altering. Even if they are honest when they set out, with a program they think will bring benefits to all, they have to make so many compromises with so many amoral entities in order to get the money needed for election that by the time they have enough power to do good, they are mostly of the devil-bought and do harm instead.
(And this is not to speak of the kind of personality that is profoundly attracted to power for its own sake, and is easily led to do evil because the conscience that should restrain it is weak or missing.)
|Jan-26-15|| ||al wazir: <Abdel Irada: As for <al wazir>'s blind spot on the Ukraine, it forms part of the larger problem that is his cognitive dissonance. He also exhibits wilful blindness with regard to Israel, GMO and a total refusal to believe his government is not above Machiavellianism.> More mind-reading. Has anyone ever told you that you have no future as a carnival mentalist?|
<Actually, <al wazir> is plainly quite intelligent, well educated, articulate (if sometimes glib), and infinitely more self-possessed and polished than <HeMateMe> could be in 10 lifetimes.> Thanks. But what's wrong with glibness?
<However, once you strip away all the varnish, at heart he does indeed still think much as <HMM> does, and is nearly as hard to reach with reason. In both, there is a streak of invincible ignorance: "I don't know, I don't want to know, and you can't *make* me know!"> Change that previous advice to "You have no future in any career that requires insight into another person's thought processes."
<But I do hold out a bit of hope for <aw>, who at least has moved from "libertarian" to "liberal" and is gradually absorbing a few lessons about the unreliability of authority.> Thank you, Butch Cassidy.
<If he can stop glossing (really gliding, I suppose) over important points in order to focus on trivial ones, and suspend his trust in the objectivity and good intentions of those in power, he may yet arrive at the truth that there are neo-Nazis in Odessa (even though they don't control the government), that the cold war is not the defining paradigm of the conflict in Ukraine, and that conditions there are far more complex than he has so far admitted.> I realize that your kibitzing is heavily over-committed, so you have not had time to read what I actually wrote. Consequently, I forgive you for this gross misrepresentation of my views. But it does mean that I can't take seriously anything else you write about me either.
|Jan-26-15|| ||HeMateMe: abdel, you should get your ego-inflated head out of your butt, once in awhile. Regarding Hussein killing 100,000 of his countrymen with poison gas, No. 1, there's nothing we could have "done about it," to use your words. No. 2, the chemicals used to make weapons are a part of many industrial processes. We can't control everything, regarding what we export.|
Since you raise the topic, why don't YOU tell us how we could have stopped a military dictator from killing his own citizens by dropping poison gas on them from airplanes? In fact, we later established the no fly zone over northern Iraq to stop just this horror from reoccurring.
It's a shame you can't have a little more faith in your own countrymen, Abdel. And, if you could ever pretend you DON'T know everything, all the time, about EVERYTHING, you just might have a little bit more credibility here.
|Jan-26-15|| ||al wazir: Correction: "Kalinka" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NA-...).|
And I actually meant "Katyusha" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRW...).
|Jan-26-15|| ||Abdel Irada: <al wazir: More mind-reading. Has anyone ever told you that you have no future as a carnival mentalist?>|
You do note that the passage you're criticizing is in angle brackets? That means it's a quote, and the thought that made it was not mine.
In any case, it doesn't require "mind-reading" to make certain inferences about a poster's biases from the evidence supplied by tens of thousands of posts.
You are free to disagree with the inferences and show why, but to call them "mind-reading" is bad logic.
<Thanks. But what's wrong with glibness?>
What do you *think* is wrong with it?
What a question.
<Change that previous advice to "You have no future in any career that requires insight into another person's thought processes.">
Across several topics I have found your posting behavior (and I remind you that what you say is all we have to judge you by) consistent with my description.
You present an argument, which is met in detail and often eviscerated. Rather than accept the refutation as such, you then, <HeMateMe>-like, first quibble about semantics, then grudgingly and incrementally back out of the conversation, and subsequently return to repeat the original argument, only to be silenced again when the refutation is repeated and underscored.
One would think this repeated experience would convince you to read, understand and assimilate the refutation in full, but by evidence you block it out. Because your next step is to wait a few weeks or months and then *again* restate your long-discredited argument.
To more than one of your interlocutors, on certain topics at least, this smells of willful ignorance.
<I realize that your kibitzing is heavily over-committed, so you have not had time to read what I actually wrote. Consequently, I forgive you for this gross misrepresentation of my views.>
I was summarizing the chief error in your views, since I didn't want to recapitulate your entire discussion with <Softpaw> to an audience that's already familiar with it. You *do* oversimplify the situation, and to some extent you still appear to be under the influence of a binary Cold War mentality.
<But it does mean that I can't take seriously anything else you write about me either.>
I'm sure you'd be delighted to find an excuse to dismiss it. But you know that would be a perfect demonstration of fallacy-in-action: "I think you're wrong in some of what you say about me, so all of it must be wrong."
Well, all of it is not wrong, and I'm far from the only one who's remarked on it.
|Jan-26-15|| ||Abdel Irada: <HeMateMe: abdel, you should get your ego-inflated head out of your butt, once in awhile. Regarding Hussein killing 100,000 of his countrymen with poison gas, No. 1, there's nothing we could have "done about it," to use your words.>|
Are you capable of opening a post without a graphic obscenity?
And sure there's something we could have done. If we were eventually going to invade anyway, *that* was the time to do it.
Short of that, there are countless economic and diplomatic weapons in our arsenal, not to mention our power to secure UN resolutions that could have forced Hussein to desist on penalty of a perfectly legal international intervention.
<No. 2, the chemicals used to make weapons are a part of many industrial processes. We can't control everything, regarding what we export.>
We can, do and did restrict exports of "dual-use" technologies and materials, denying access to many of them (including "supercomputers," such as PowerPC Macintoshes) to such designated enemies as Iran and Cuba.
If we let someone have access to the raw materials for chemical weapons, we do not do so in ignorance. This is especially true with a country with the record established by Hussein in the Iran-Iraq war.
<Since you raise the topic, why don't YOU tell us how we could have stopped a military dictator from killing his own citizens by dropping poison gas on them from airplanes? In fact, we later established the no fly zone over northern Iraq to stop just this horror from reoccurring.>
I guess I don't need to answer this question because you have already done so.
<It's a shame you can't have a little more faith in your own countrymen, Abdel.>
Again you fail to see the distinction — a vital one — between my countrymen and the elite that misrules us.
<And, if you could ever pretend you DON'T know everything, all the time, about EVERYTHING, you just might have a little bit more credibility here.>
I have never pretended to know everything; like everyone, I know what I know.
Different people are good at different things. Some specialize in one thing, others in another. We are made different for a reason, and it's when we put those differences to use by each bringing his own talents to the table that we prosper best.
This is called community, and it is the foundation of society. And it is best served by celebrating rather than ridiculing or demeaning each other's contributions.
Meanwhile, if you paid any attention in the Holiday Present Hunt, you would have seen me repeatedly express awe for the *really* smart people among us: the ones who can solve those clues and make it look easy.
But as so often, you see what you want to see, as long as it serves your cause of refusing to see the truth when it is spelled out before your eyes. This is a cognitive error, but I suppose it enables you to avoid painful dissonance between the narrative you've internalized and the evidence that shows it false.
|Jan-26-15|| ||MarkFinan: <<devere: <MarkFinan: I think everyone knows that the invasion of Iraq was wrong. Bush knew there was no weapons of mass destruction, but I think Blair genuinely believed there was. When Bush II was running for president he said there was "unfinished business" in Iraq. He was borderline retarded, and he was the perfect puppet for Rumsfeld and Cheney, who both wanted to invade Iraq after 9/11.>
I think that the Iraq war was a very serious mistake, and George W Bush was a poor President, but the "facts" you assert are imaginary.>>|
Firstly. Good post. Not quite sure what "facts" in my post you're talking about though because they're just my opinions, although I do think my opinions are based on facts.
<<Clinton, Bush, and Blair all thought that there were WMDs in Iraq. They were all taken in by the same false intelligence reports. http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/...
"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons." Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002 >>
I did say in my post that I thought Blair actually believed in the WMD rubbish, but according to Dick Clarke, Bush II was overheard saying to Rumsfeld "Find me a way to do this". "This" being invading Iraq. America were going to invade Iraq with or without us (England) and regardless of what the UN said. But Bush still wanted to do it in a way that wouldn't look like unprovoked madness to the rest of the world, and waiting for more UN resolutions and other allies falling into line and being persuaded to get on board could have taken another 6, 12, 18 months. According to Dick Clarke Rumsfeld and Cheney were ready to go into Iraq in September of 2001, only Colin Powell and Clarke convinced Bush otherwise. Clarke said Rumsfeld and Cheney then started calling Afghanistan "phase one" in the war on terror, Iraq being phase 2...... and that's how it turned out, but they did give Saddam Hussein fair warning what would happen if he didn't leave the country. And even though I do think Saddam needed killing (like the mission to kill Bin Laden would have been better, but obviously harder) if he had left Iraq when he was told, the Americans were still going in to look for these wmd's, because without the WMD garbage Bush couldn't have invaded! You can't just invade countries for "Regime change", *unless* that country poses a serious threat to the Invading country ..... Step forward the WMD fairy tale.
<<George W Bush was a graduate of Yale College and the Harvard Business School. Educational records purport to show that neither he, Al Gore, or John Kerry, were very good students, but none of them can reasonably be called "borderline retarded". http://www.insidepolitics.org/heard...>
It doesn't matter what school or university he went to, what grades he got, he was dumb as s##t! He used to be a heavy drinker and a cocaine user, his motor skills aren't exactly the sharpest! You can just tell, everytime Bush made the speech I used to cringe for him!?
<<George W Bush fired Donald Rumsfeld as Defense Secretary, and refused Dick Cheney's earnest plea to pardon his close friend Scooter Libby before leaving office. To describe Bush as the puppet of either man seems seriously inaccurate.>>
They had a heavy heavy influence over Bush, more than any other VP and DefSec in living memory.
<<I believe that George W Bush's most serious mistake as President was to insist that the enemy that attacked the USA on 9/11 was "terrorism" rather than radical Islam.>>
My views and opinions on that religion are well known, but to declare war on a religion (especially in September of 2001when every country in the world was prepared to stand shoulder to shoulder with America) would be complete madness and likely to bring about WW III!
I know you said "Radical Islam", but for a country to say it's going to war with any kind of Islam would have made them all unite, and the world would have been mayhem. They're all mad as it is! Bush was very careful in that respect, he repeatedly called Islam a religion of peace because he knew, and his administration knew, you can't declare war on a religion.
|Jan-26-15|| ||twinlark: <abdel wazir>
Does this give you a clue?
|Jan-26-15|| ||Abdel Irada: <twinlark: <abdel wazir>>|
Speaking of monsters....
This sounds like one of the composite mummies under the Great Pyramid in Lovecraft's "Imprisoned With The Pharaohs": the one he wrote in collaboration with Harry Houdini, who was also the story's protagonist.
Let not such unclean hybrids* be unleashed upon the world!
*Unless they're GMOs. That might account for the <wazir> part.
|Jan-26-15|| ||perfidious: <twinlark: We won't even mention Odessa, where all those people in the Trade Union Building obviously killed themselves....>|
<....including the 8 month pregnant woman who strangled herself and discourteously left her own body lying on her desk, and the people who jumped from the burning building who vigorously and suicidally assaulted the fists, boots and sticks held by innocent freedom loving non-fascist bystanders....>
Mere collateral damage, don't you know.
< (aw's) demand for ever more proof and evidence is reminiscent of creationists constantly demanding more evidence of evolution along the lines of <but where are the transitional fossils?> kind of willful intellectual derpitude.>
Give me a full-on idiot to argue with any day; for that has got to be easier going than such wilfulness.
<For him nazis only ever existed in Nazi Germany, and in effect for him, as you can infer from his response, There Can Be Or Ever Have Been Only One Set of Nazis.>
Cloaked with his set of facts and utter moral certitude, he marches forth, a soldier in dubious battle with all the horrors the world has to offer.
<I'm afraid that is a blind spot he continues to flourish in this forum. You may as well argue the logic of God with <!!>.>
Or the lovely topic of OMVs, as espoused by that selfsame poster.
|Jan-26-15|| ||Softpaw: "Syriza forms government with rightwing Independent Greeks party"|
<Radical leftists form government with populist rightwing party after less than an hour of coalition negotiations>
Populism vs Elitism trumps Left vs Right
|Jan-26-15|| ||twinlark: <Abdel Irada: <twinlark: <abdel wazir>>>|
|Jan-26-15|| ||twinlark: <Softpaw>
<Populism vs Elitism trumps Left vs Right>
A pity if that is the case. I thought the Greeks were fed up with being screwed by their pollies not to mention the whole pitiful euro-shambles run by those rapacious pricks in the banking sector.
The trillion-euro QE has to be the worst sort of joke. You couldn't make up that sort of far fetched scenario until it actually happens.
|Jan-26-15|| ||perfidious: <twinlark> Politics and rapacity in the same sentence? You must be daft!|
|Jan-26-15|| ||Softpaw: <twinlark: <Softpaw> <Populism vs Elitism trumps Left vs Right> A pity if that is the case.>|
My remark may have been a bit glib.
My idea was: left and right-wing <populist> parties in Greece oppose austerity, the troika, and the traditional political/economic establishment. They differ on other issues, of course. On the other hand, both left and right <elite> parties support austerity, the troika etc.
|Jan-26-15|| ||al wazir: <Abdel Irada: <al wazir: More mind-reading. Has anyone ever told you that you have no future as a carnival mentalist?>|
You do note that the passage you're criticizing is in angle brackets?> Oh. You were quoting that criticism to *refute* it? It seemed to me that you were only qualifying it slightly and basically agreeing. I didn't realize that you were defending me. My mistake.
I repeat: You are clueless when it comes to analyzing my thought processes. Give it up. Stick to issues.
|Jan-26-15|| ||Check It Out: <twinlark: <Abdel Irada: <twinlark: <abdel wazir>>>
I wish you had done that on purpose.
|Jan-26-15|| ||twinlark: <Softpaw>
Yes, I see what you mean.
Btw, what do you make of the upcoming color revolution in Hungary?
|Jan-26-15|| ||cormier: http://www.usccb.org/bible/readings...|
|Jan-26-15|| ||cormier: Assad: Syria ready to coordinate US-led airstrikes against ISIS|
|Jan-26-15|| ||Check It Out: Here's an article on the democracy movement in Myanmar. My wife just attended their first ever political science program, which was attended by 175 pliticians and military personnel. She's on the schedule to pilot modules over the new next few days. No attacks from raging Buddhist monks so far.|
|Jan-26-15|| ||valiant: <Softpaw: http://www.theguardian.com/world/li...
<[Greece] The far-right Golden Dawn party is projected to come third in election, despite having more than half of its MPs in jail. Speaking from prison its leader Nikolaos Michaloliakos said the result was a “great victory” for the neo-fascist party.>>|
I think that is misleading, when they actually lost 100k votes, and wouldn't have been third if PASOK had stayed united (Papandreou started a new party just before the election).
|Jan-26-15|| ||twinlark: <Papandreou started a new party just before the election>|
That was on the nose as much as anything happening in Greek politics. I thought at the time it was intended to draw votes away from Syriza.
|Jan-26-15|| ||Shams: <valiant> So they would have been fourth instead of third in that case? Still a pretty high showing for a criminal mob in a national election.|
|Jan-26-15|| ||valiant: <Shams> The far-right got 13% in last year's election in Sweden. And (criminal) scandals aren't stopping them from winning votes it seems http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_p...|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 6740 OF 6740 ·