< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3280 OF 4595 ·
|Jun-15-12|| ||diceman: <MORPHYEUS: So <FSR> is running a Christian smear campaign now?>|
Maybe CM is on vacation?
|Jun-15-12|| ||FSR: <Jim Bartle: <FSR: Andrew Sullivan, the popular blogger and Catholic, [wrote] that "it is obvious that Christians can commit murder, assault, etc. They do so every day. Because, as Christian orthodoxy tells us, we are all sinners. To say that no Christian can ever commit murder is a sophist's piffle. ... >|
Is the same therefore true of "followers" of other religions?>
I would say so, sure.
|Jun-15-12|| ||MORPHYEUS: No. CM was running the American Smear campaign.
<FSR> seems to be being helped by his dog.
|Jun-15-12|| ||FSR: <al wazir> Exorcisms are not just a historical phenomenon. Father Gabriele Amorth (who has recently been in the news for his claims about Vatican sex parties and Vatican involvement in the abduction and murder of Emanuela Orlandi) claims to have performed over 70,000 exorcisms. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabrie...|
|Jun-15-12|| ||quantum.conscious: <MORPHYEUS: So <FSR> is running a Christian smear campaign now?>|
i don't think <fsr> has any such agenda.
see, people like <fsr> and <al wazir> are devotees of science and reason. anything they find absurd using reason they would point that out.
so, it is not that <fsr> starts with this agenda that he has to discredit or vilify religion and looks for ways to do that. he simply examines everything , including religion, through reason and if finds absurdities points them out.
so, that is why he was 'excited' about that quote of pope saying something like faith and science don't have to be inconsistent.
perhaps , he also thinks that fundamentalists have an agenda - to desperately justify the practices of their religion and writing of their scriptures and they always looking ways to serve this agenda and sometimes/often these ways become quite absurd when examined through reason.
perhaps he also thinks science and reason are the path to ultimate 'utopia' and i think he is wrong there.
if we ever going to get utopia on earth , that would be by following teachings of <jesus>
|Jun-15-12|| ||al wazir: "Utopia" is Greek for "nowhere," and that's where you'll find it.|
It is not to be confused with "eutopia."
|Jun-15-12|| ||MORPHYEUS: Look, there are about 2 billion so-called "Christians" on this planet, if you go on with your examples we will be reading about it for the next 3280 pages.|
If this is not a smear campaign, i'm the heavyweight champion of the world.
|Jun-15-12|| ||quantum.conscious: <al wazir: "Utopia" is Greek for "nowhere," and that's where you'll find it.>|
it will be found nowhere ? evidence?
P.S. cynicism should not be confused with mechanistic evidence nor with realism. however, cynicism is very real and debilitating and is in the same domain as depression , paranoia... good news is , its 'cure' is possible (and not just through the teachings of <jesus>. carl jung's theory of shadow energy can work too)
|Jun-15-12|| ||quantum.conscious: <MORPHYEUS: Look, there are about 2 billion so-called "Christians" on this planet, if you go on with your examples we will be reading about it for the next 3280 pages.
If this is not a smear campaign, i'm the heavyweight champion of the world.>|
if you saying that <fsr> picks up some random news about some 'christian' doing something 'stupid/evil' and uses that to say religion is 'bad/evil' and therefore such posts of <fsr> are absurd, perhaps you have a point.
but still, i am reluctant to go as far as saying that <fsr> has some bias against religion, some irrational hatred towards religion which is manifested in his posts time and again.
|Jun-15-12|| ||al wazir: <quantum.conscious>: There is no place that resembles More's Utopia, so it is literally nowhere to be found. But I am not seeking Utopia because I am sure that human existence has no purpose. It doesn't bother me.|
I haven't read the book (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopia...), nor do I expect to, so I don't know if More was deliberately punning on "eutopia" or if his Greek was weak when he wrote it.
|Jun-16-12|| ||quantum.conscious: quantum.conscious: <al wazir : I am sure that human existence has no purpose>|
you know i am a man of science . these days i teach all the three subjects - maths , physics , chemistry - to students preparing for IIT entrance exam. in india people know about this exam. for you, roughly you could say that the questions asked are of grade 11th and 12th of the complexity level of olympiad. or if you aware of the book 'problems in physics' by i. e. irodov , then that is the complexity level of the questions asked.
so, this kind of training makes one look for logical intelligence in every statement/action automatically.
that is why when i see the statement like :
<al wazir : I am sure that human existence has no purpose>
almost automatic response is : evidence?
|Jun-16-12|| ||quantum.conscious: continued from post above:
lest one should jump to some conclusion, i hasten to add i am only half (or 1/4th if you insist or whatever) the man of science compared to <al wazir> or <johnlspouge> (did that expression come off alright?) but even that is sufficient for the purpose i used it for.
|Jun-16-12|| ||al wazir: <qc>: I say that I am sure because I see no evidence that existence *has* a purpose. That doesn't prove that there is none, of course, but I think the burden of proof is on those who claim it does. Here's an analogy. I am confident that angels and devils don't exist. My confidence doesn't prove anything, but until I see a reason to change my mind I'm going to go on thinking that there are none.|
On another level, what is purpose? Purpose is something that exists in the mind of a conscious, purposive being. But for *existence* itself to have a purpose, what could such a being be? God?
You already know what I think of that hypothesis.
|Jun-16-12|| ||RookFile: <savagerules; Maybe the Romneys will hire Michelle Obama's mother to stay on as a maid. >|
Amusing. Anything is possible, I guess.
|Jun-16-12|| ||quantum.conscious: <al wazir: On another level, what is purpose?>|
let us put it other way: what is your life about ? hedonism?
at the end of day, do you ever get a feeling of satisfaction at day well lived? if yes , then what is that about ? about living your hedonistic best or ...
|Jun-16-12|| ||quantum.conscious: continued from the post above :
<al wazir: But for *existence* itself to have a purpose, what could such a being be? God?>
just to elaborate in case you missed - your argument is something like - ' premise is 'there is no god' and conclusion is 'there is no purpose for *existence*'
i am asking you to not use that premise
, not to insist on first providing you with an evidence for the existence of god before even bothering to examine purpose of 'existence'
that is not required to answer the question - 'what is your life about? hedonism? '
|Jun-16-12|| ||Shams: <q.c.> Clearly <aw> is a utilitarian.|
|Jun-16-12|| ||al wazir: <quantum.conscious: at the end of day, do you ever get a feeling of satisfaction at day well lived?> Yes, if I've done well at 5-minute chess.|
That's not the only thing. Any positive human interaction might do the trick. A clever, well phrased post on the <Kenneth Rogoff> page (mine or someone else's). An enjoyable entertainment, or some little achievement. Solving a math puzzle or inventing a new one. Even something that doesn't involve human interaction: whipping my yard into shape, fixing the sprinkler system, mending a birdbath that the wind blew off the deck a couple of weeks ago. (I haven't done that yet.) Or figuring out why birds bathe. (I haven't done that yet either, but I have a couple of ideas for some experiments.) Lots of things.
None of these requires that human existence have a purpose. Why should there be a purpose for existence? Amoebae don't need one. Dogs and cats don't either. But is there any greater satisfaction than the satisfaction visibly enjoyed by a spoiled, fussed-over, well-fed dog or cat?
|Jun-16-12|| ||quantum.conscious: <al wazir: <quantum.conscious: at the end of day, do you ever get a feeling of satisfaction at day well lived?> Yes, if I've done well at 5-minute chess.....>|
now you talking :)
when i was in my teen , i was very competitive. doing well in chess or maths used to give me a lot of 'satisfaction' . in time i realized , i was driven to be no 1 because of my competitive nature. i began to understand that i have 'ego' (or everyone has 'ego' but i am not insisting on that lest you should ask for evidence - mechanistic evidence at that. and when i insist on making that point , i would provide mechanistic evidence. for now , i would just say that i realised i had something called 'ego' and assume you understand what i am talking about so that no further elaboration is required).
however, i also realised that i can leave my 'ego' aside for some time and can still derive 'joy' from maths and other activities.
am i right in assuming that you know the distinction and you experience the joy that you derive from the activities you mentioned is joy for its own sake and not 'pseudo joy' derived in the service of your ego (unless you say that you are absolutely free of ego at all the times)?
when you answer that question , we will proceed further. when dealing with people of your stature , i try to take extra precaution in being as rigorous as my limited abilities allow, so you would , hopefully, excuse me for being 'tedious' or ....
|Jun-16-12|| ||al wazir: <q.c>: I have explained at some length why I see no need for human existence to have a purpose. I await your reasons -- if you have any -- for thinking that it does.|
If you have none, let's just drop the matter.
|Jun-16-12|| ||quantum.conscious: < al wazir: <q.c>: I have explained at some length why I see no need for human existence to have a purpose. I await your reasons -- if you have any -- for thinking that it does.
If you have none, let's just drop the matter.>|
<al wazir> , the conversation of purpose of 'existence' emanated from conversation of utopia
let's first focus on utopia.
if you can derive the joy from things that you mentioned and also has experienced the distinction of doing the things in order to serve ego or to do things to derive the joy which has got nothing to do with ego than you don't need any evidence for that. however, in your case i am not sure. you may say that you would need some mechanistic evidence to validate your experience. so , these days some bits and pieces of evidence are available in the form of brain mapping and discovery of messenger molecules.
so, if we are not living in a utopian society (a society with perfect harmony) but instead are living in a society filled with strife , crime...
it could be argued that is because not enough people have experienced the joy that you have experienced.
but the hunger for that kind of joy is within everyone. so , if one is addicted to heroine or other drugs , that is because they are seeking joy/fulfillment in the wrong places - they will not find it there.
they can find it only in the kind of activities you listed. (in a way, you are leading a highly spiritually life if your life is about deriving joy from the activities you mentioned provided it is free from ego)
so by now perhaps you have figured where the conversation is leading.
i am saying that you are living at a very high level of consciousness and everyone would like to live at that level. people who are into crime , heroine/drugs etc. just don't know any better - i call it 'sheer ignorance and lack of experience' (a phrase i have used here before).
so your argument would essentially be like - "some people are made up to be criminal , drug addicts ... not everyone is capable of living at a level of consciousness as high as <al wazir> is living at. hence we can not have a utopian society"
well, i don't know if you are 'cut up' for this kind of conversation , so i don't know if i should continue it with you ....
|Jun-16-12|| ||quantum.conscious: continued from the above post :
i would continue this conversation with <al wazir> if i get some signs from <al wazir> that his mental faculties are well developed in this dimension for him to have this conversation
meanwhile : <warning - carl jungian>
i had read a physician narrating the case : there was a teen girl who was trapped in drug use and in prostitution to finance her addiction and sick of her life. that physician asked her to remember some activities which used to give her joy. 'horse riding', she replied. well story's ending was that girl got back into horse riding and the joy derived from horse riding was enough to sustain her. she did not need to seek joy in drugs.
<this is a highly spiritual story> . this inner joy of horse riding is highly spiritual . "follow your bliss" goes the aphorism for a very good reason. bliss refers to that inner joy.
|Jun-16-12|| ||quantum.conscious: continued from the above post :
<warning : carl jungian> stay tuned . the conversation would next be about purpose of existence/life and then <( double warning , triple/multiple warning )> would naturally unfold to the existence of god. it all would be about experience just as the above conversations have been.
|Jun-16-12|| ||cormier: http://www.usccb.org/bible/readings...|
|Jun-16-12|| ||cormier: <<<<<<<<<<<Gospel Lk 2:41-51> Each year Jesus' parents went to Jerusalem for the feast of Passover,
and when he was twelve years old,
they went up according to festival custom.>
After they had completed its days, as they were returning,
the boy Jesus remained behind in Jerusalem,
but his parents did not know it.>
Thinking that he was in the caravan,
they journeyed for a day
and looked for him among their relatives and acquaintances,
but not finding him,
they returned to Jerusalem to look for him.>
After three days they found him in the temple,
sitting in the midst of the teachers,
listening to them and asking them questions,
and all who heard him were astounded
at his understanding and his answers.>
When his parents saw him,
they were astonished,
and his mother said to him,
"Son, why have you done this to us?>
Your father and I have been looking for you with great anxiety.">
And he said to them,
"Why were you looking for me?>
Did you not know that I must be in my Father's house?">
But they did not understand what he said to them.>
He went down with them and came to Nazareth,
and was obedient to them;
and his mother kept all these things in her heart.>
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