< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 9 OF 10 ·
|Feb-20-08|| ||Open Defence: <hitman> again this discussion is going no where|
<<Missionaries do not equate with the British Raj>
Then I should probably ask you, missionaries of what period are you talking about ? But their motives changed after the British entered. Yes they have done a lot of good work I don't deny that but you cannot generalize.
<Christianity took root in India long before the British arrived>
There are also evidences that Christianity originated in India. How many in the west believe that ?>
there is clear evidence that Christianity took root in India before the British or Portugese colonized India, the growth of Christianity in India is not a consequence of colonialism neither is colonialism a consequence of Christianity in India
<But their motives changed after the British entered> there were and are many non British missionary movements in India and their motives had nothing to do with the British Raj
<Do you know about Christian terrorism in North - East India ? > Christianity is not the cause or the motives behind the terrorism in the North East but rather neglect in the development of the region allows such lunatics like <Isak Chishi Swu> to spread his hate propoganda, no different than lunatics like Raj Thackeray but much more dangerous
<Also for your kind information <India inc.> is helping the farmers. It's started in North-India already probably will take some time to spread down south. So no need to go ga-ga over it.>
they help them in the South too, my husband's Grand dad has farming lands in Coimbatore and the private sector does help in certain farming situations, but those are mainly in cash crops,
also particularly cotton farmers in Vidarbha have been worst hit... part of the problem is the State controlled distribution system! however dismantling that system will not be easy
I do not agree fully with the views in that article but one point is clear, micro finance is critical to provide immediate relief
India Inc. helping is certainly a step which is required for long term betterment, but in these situations something needs to be done to avert the crisis in the short term too
one thing, overall India has progressed, but we can make much more progress and bring relief to much more people, if citizen activism was more wide spread, our people are so divided and rarely come together and work united for a cause, that makes it easy for corrupt Govt Officials, Business men and Religious leaders to pull the wool over our eyes
|Feb-20-08|| ||Open Defence: <In April 2007 an NGO named Green Earth Social Development Consulting brought out a report after doing an audit of the state and central government relief packages in Vidarbha. The report's conclusions were:|
Farmers' demands were not taken into count while preparing the relief package. Neither were civil society organisations, local government bodies, panchayats etc consulted.
The relief packages were mostly amalgamations of exiting schemes. Apart from the farmer helpline and the direct financial assistance, there was scarcely anythign new being offered. Pumping extra funds into additional schemes shows that no new idea was applied to solve a situation where existing measures had obviously failed.
The farmer helpline did not give any substantial help to farmers
The basis for selection of beneficiaries under the assistance scheme was not well-defined. Also, type of assistance to be given led to problems like a farmer needing a pair of bullocks getting a pump set and vice versa (or a farmer who has no access to water sources being given pump sets)
Awareness regarding the package was also pretty low.
The report concluded quite alarmingly that the loan burden of the farmers will double in 2008>
|Feb-20-08|| ||hitman84: I also think that learning different languages helps you reach out to the people. I speak 4 Indian languages.|
Which reminds me that Vishy has reportedly said that he will learn Hindi(Our national language!) He is from Tamil Nadu which is probably the most conservative state in India one reason American Imperialism hasn't spread there. You know how crazy they are about their language.
So I feel a Tamilian learning Hindi is in itself a big news. Something I feel even chessbase can report! He is doing it for a good cause he wants to start a national academy so that he can communicate better. He has also said that he is not interested in Politics.
<Politics is a reality and more political activism from the youth may actually lead to a better crop of administrators, this is one area maybe where India needs to have a real change from within. If one gets involved then certainly a difference can be made.>
You probably don't know the power of corporates :)
|Feb-20-08|| ||hitman84: <I do not agree fully with the views in that article but one point is clear, micro finance is critical to provide immediate relief>|
Its going nowhere its just a waste of time arguing with an adamant person like you!
|Feb-20-08|| ||Open Defence: <Its going nowhere its just a waste of time arguing with an adamant person like you!> surely there is no need for this kind of hostility, even if we disagree there is no reason we can't be civil about it..|
<I also think that learning different languages helps you reach out to the people. I speak 4 Indian languages.> well since I was born in Chennai (when it was called Madras) I speak Tamil, I learnt Kannada upto my Bachelors degree, Hindi was picked up at work, Telugu has proved to be a bit slow but I am getting there, Malayalam in my mother tongue, however if my eyes are closed then the truth can be elusive, hence I try to see all sides of an issue which is no doubt difficult and not always possible
<hitman> I do not understand your hostility, from no one I am not going to post on this subject even if you directly address a question to me as there is no need for this unpleasantness and this wont help anyone in anycase
|Feb-20-08|| ||hitman84: <India Inc. helping is certainly a step which is required for long term betterment, but in these situations something needs to be done to avert the crisis in the short term too>|
You go do it! Using short time crisis to support your argument is senseless. You can't have everything!
<one thing, overall India has progressed, but we can make much more progress and bring relief to much more people, if citizen activism was more wide spread, our people are so divided and rarely come together and work united for a cause, that makes it easy for corrupt Govt Officials, Business men and Religious leaders to pull the wool over our eyes
|Feb-20-08|| ||hitman84: <I do not understand your hostility, from no one I am not going to post on this subject even if you directly address a question to me as there is no need for this unpleasantness and this wont help anyone in anycase>|
To my eyes you're just painting a very very dark picture. I don't know why you need to do that ?
|Feb-20-08|| ||Open Defence: <To my eyes you're just painting a very very dark picture. I don't know why you need to do that ?> because there a lot of people suffering and many are turning a blind eye to it, we can either pretend that things are fine or will get better through wishful thinking but only through effort will this happen and a broad consensus will certainly help in achieving this faster|
|May-01-08|| ||brankat: Best wishes to all for May First!|
|May-01-08|| ||Augalv: Thanks <brankat:> |
|May-26-08|| ||Wone Jone: Where's Groucho and Harpo?|
|May-26-08|| ||Wone Jone: So, do you think he could beat Lenin if they should meet in Hell?|
|Jun-25-08|| ||JonathanJ: why should marx go to hell? perhaps lenin and of course stalin, but for marx there is absolutely no reason to go to hell.|
|Jun-25-08|| ||keypusher: <JonathanJ: why should marx go to hell?> Where else is he going to find a good chess game?|
|Jun-28-08|| ||BishopBerkeley: If the father of Robert James Fischer was indeed Hungarian physicist Paul Nemenyi (as many maintain), and Mr. Fischer's half-brother was (therefore) Peter Nemenyi, it's interesting to see that (according to this piece) both Nemenyis were active in socialist causes:|
=== from the piece cited ===
Peter Nemenyi (Ne-MEN-yi) was born in Berlin, in 1927. His parents had fled the rise of Fascism in Hungary, the first Fascist state in Europe. They fled to Germany.
They belonged to a small Socialist party, ITSK (it-sk), founded by Leonard Nelson (Neil-sen), which believed that truth could be arrived at through neo-Kantian Socratic principles. It broke with the Social Democrats, which it saw as too frivolous, but aimed to unite the fragmented German Socialist Parties to oppose Hitler.
ITSK had a progressive, vegetarian, school for children, out in the country....
=== end quoted passage ===
Wow! Neo-Kantian Socratic vegetarian Socialists! That almost out-Berkeleys Berkeley (California USA)!!
=== returning to the cited passage ===
...In the United States, meanwhile, Peter's father started a second family, which also did not work out. His American son was the chess legend Bobby Fis[c]her*, whom Peter remembered with some fondness, although their philosophies could not have been more at odds.
At war's end Peter joined his father in Hanford, Washington, but was drafted within months. His father — who apparently [from my Google search] was on the Manhattan Project team there, as he seemed to have been when Fis[c]her was born in Chicago — attempted draft counseling, but Peter chose induction & served in Northern Italy, outside Trieste.
After service, he attended Black Mountain College: a cooperative, experimental, avant-garde school, which existed for twenty years, in the vicinity of Ashville, North Carolina. It was owned & run by the faculty: originally those who were fired or resigned from Rollins College, in Florida, (which was once a progressive college for Northerners in delicate health). They were soon joined by European refugee artists, who became the majority. The students did both academic & manual work; including constructing the school itself. Grades were abolished.
He received his Doctorate from Princeton in 1963. From my internet searches Peter seems to have pioneered specializing in computational statistics, & wrote part of a textbook on statistics for the student with little background. He was trying to do more work on statistics for the unprepared student when I last saw him....
It was while he was in Mississippi that he became friendly with Medgar Evers, whose gentleness & kindness he remembered. Evers' death affected him deeply. He was returning from a conference in New Orleans when Evers was killed & he went to Jackson to participate in the demonstrations & was arrested there. His reminiscences are on his oral history.
He was then teaching at Downstate Medical Center in New York, but he returned to Mississippi the following year, 1963, to teach at Tougaloo College & work with SNCC. In the summer of 1964 he taught at Oberlin, but decided not to accept a permanent post there. He had also not committed to a second year at Tougaloo &, he said, as a result of his indecision, decided instead to spend the year working on the COFO project in Laurel, Mississippi. He also participated in Selma....
=== end cited passage ===
(: Bishop Berkeley :)
|Jul-24-08|| ||kramputz: This lazy filthy bum, Karl Marx, is responsible for the death of over 100 million people. Communism never died the ACLU kept it alive and well since 1920. (The ACLU is the American Communist Lawyers Union.)|
|Jul-24-08|| ||Jim Bartle: Nice to know. And to think, I always thought the ACLU was dedicated to protecting people's rights under the US Constitution.|
|Jul-24-08|| ||0o0o0o0o0: <kramputz: this lazy filthy bum> Sir, I am a lazy filthy bum and the mere idea of being responsible for the death of over 100 million goes against the lazy filthy ethos :)|
|Jul-24-08|| ||Marmot PFL: I believe that there is some good in everyone. Look how this Bosnian killer Karadzic turned his life around and became a spiritual person.|
|Jul-24-08|| ||OneArmedScissor: <kramputz: This lazy filthy bum, Karl Marx, is responsible for the death of over 100 million people. Communism never died the ACLU kept it alive and well since 1920. (The ACLU is the American Communist Lawyers Union.)>|
Far more people have died due to Adam Smith's ideas.
|Nov-02-08|| ||BishopBerkeley: You might find the first 3 minutes of this little video interesting.
You will see Warren Buffett (perhaps the most successful investor in
human history, and generally regarded as the (materially) "richest man in the world" at this time -- in spite of his simple lifestyle), California
Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, and moderator Chris Matthews
discussing the historic reasons why America has been so materially
successful. The event was the California Women's Conference of
If you take away nothing else from the video, you might note that Mr.
Buffett attributes America's remarkable material success to three
1) The Rule of Law
2) A Market System
3) A Meritocracy
Warren Buffett has a gift for communicating complex ideas in a simple,
clear way. This is an excellent example of this. He is a great
believer in the American system, one who admires it vastly -- and he
is confident that we will recover from our present economic struggles.
I found the comments all three men make here worthwhile, so I
transcribed them below, making minor adjustments for the
irregularities of spoken words. Though I did not vote for Gov.
Schwarzenegger, I found his remarks here so heartfelt (if a bit overly
patriotic) that I have included them. (A few quick notes about what
follows: Jack Welch, former CEO of General Electric, is regarded by many as one of the most effective corporate CEOs in history, though he is somewhat controversial; Mike Tyson, at his peak, was regarded by many as one of history's greatest boxers; and GDP = Gross Domestic Product, a standard measure of aggregate wealth. Also, Wikipedia defines "meritocracy" as "a system of a government or another organization wherein appointments are made and responsibilities are given based on demonstrated talent and ability (merit)...." ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merito... ) )
=== transcription taken from the video above ===
[Chris Matthews]: I always ask this question of people if you don't
think this country is exceptional how come every ethnic group that
ever comes to America -- no matter where they come *from* -- does
better *here*? Why?
[Warren Buffett]: I can tell you why. This country in 1790 had 4
million people. China had 290 million people then, almost the
population we have now. The people were just as smart there, they had
similar climates, they had similar natural resources. And here a
couple hundred years later, we've got 25% of the GDP of the world.
And China's really starting to go now, because they've picked up on
us. We've had -- though imperfect -- a rule of law, we've had a
market system, and we've had a meritocracy. And those qualities have
unleashed human potential. The human potential was there in China
before, the human potential was there in Europe. But you did not have
a system that unleashed that potential the way the American system
has. And I would give credit to those three factors.
We have a system where Jack Welch ends up running General Electric,
and Mike Tyson ends up fighting for the Heavyweight Championship. And
it doesn't put Mike Tyson in charge of General Electric or put Jack
Welch in there fighting for the Heavyweight Championship.
We have developed talents like an Olympic qualifying event, where the
right people get the right resources and the right jobs. And then we
protect that by a rule of law, and it works very, very well.
[a few sentences later, California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger provides
[Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger]: ... Let me just add to what Warren said,
that I think this is really the greatest country in the world. I
think it has the most opportunities of any nation, and I've travelled
all over the world: it is staggering. Anyone can make it here if you
have the will -- it's all about the will: how much fire do you have in
the belly, how much do you really want to rely on yourself, or how
much do you want to go and get a handout. So that's really on what it
depends. But this is really by far the best nation, even though it
has its weak points, and we have our crises, and we have our downturns
financially and economically and all those things, and the stock
market goes up and down. But there's one thing we know for sure about
America: it always will come back, and it always will be the most
powerful nation and the best nation and the most generous nation in
the world. That we know for sure.... [enthusiastic applause from the
=== end transcripton ===
I certainly don't agree with everything that is said here (though I do agree with much of it.) An interesting "reference perspective" in any case.
(: Bishop Berkeley :)
|Dec-06-08|| ||BishopBerkeley: List of the "Most Capitalist" Countries
Which are the "most capitalist" countries in the world? The controversial phrase "economic freedom" is used by some to indicate the relative "freeness" of the free market system of different nations.
Here is a list of the nations of the world ranked according to their relative "market freeness" -- or what here is called "economic freedom":
And here is a color-coded map of those countries:
Larger image here:
Here is Wikipedia's main article on "Economic Freedom" (as used in this special sense):
According to the article:
=== begin quoted text ===
[numeric references are provided at the conclusion of the article]
Economic freedom is a controversial term used in economic research and policy debates. As with freedom generally, there are various definitions, but no universally accepted concept of economic freedom. One major approach to economic freedom comes from the libertarian tradition emphasizing free markets and private property, while another extends the welfare economics study of individual choice, with greater economic freedom coming from a "larger" (in some technical sense) set of possible choices. Another more philosophical perspective emphasizes its context in distributive justice and basic freedoms of all individuals.
Today the term is most commonly associated with a classical liberal (or free market) viewpoint, and defined as the freedom to produce, trade and consume any goods and services acquired without the use of force, fraud or theft. This is embodied in the rule of law, property rights and freedom of contract, and characterized by external and internal openness of the markets, the protection of property rights and freedom of economic initiative....
=== end quoted text ===
We also find this remarkable summary. If true, it would be well worth noting
=== begin quoted text ===
[numeric references are provided at the conclusion of the article]
According to the creators of the indices, these rankings correlate strongly with higher average income per person, higher income of the poorest 10%, higher life expectancy, higher literacy, lower infant mortality, higher access to water sources and less corruption. The people living in the top one-fifth of countries enjoy an average income of $23,450 and a growth rate in the 1990s of 2.56 percent per year; in contrast, the bottom one-fifth in the rankings had an average income of just $2,556 and a -0.85 percent growth rate in the 1990s. The poorest 10 percent of the population have an average income of just $728 in the lowest ranked countries compared with over $7,000 in the highest ranked countries. The life expectancy of people living in the highest ranked nations is 20 years longer than for people in the lowest ranked countries.
Higher economic freedom, as measured by both the Heritage and the Fraser indices, correlates strongly with higher self-reported happiness.
Erik Gartzke of the Fraser Institute estimates that countries with a high EFW are significantly less likely to be involved in wars, while his measure of democracy had little or no impact.
The Economic Freedom of the World score for the entire world has grown considerably in recent decades. The average score has increased from 5.17 in 1985 to 6.4 in 2005. Of the nations in 1985, 95 nations increased their score, seven saw a decline, and six were unchanged. Using the 2008 Index of Economic Freedom methodology world economic freedom has increased 2.6 points since 1995.
Members of the World Bank Group also use Index of Economic Freedom as the indicator of investment climate, because it covers more aspects relevant to the private sector in wide number of countries....
=== end quoted text ===
Personally, I do not believe in the market as an end in itself -- it only exists to serve the interests of the citizens of a nation (and of the world). To the extent that it does this well, that is good. To the extent that it does this poorly, it needs to be changed.
As energy/environment guru Amory Lovins said so well, "Markets make a splendid servant, a bad master, and a worse religion."
(: Bishop Berkeley :)
|Dec-06-08|| ||Travis Bickle: Carl Marx was grandfather to The Marx Brothers. Acirce was a distant cousin to the Marx brothers also.
|Mar-03-09|| ||whiteshark: <Social progress can be measured exactly by the social position of the fair sex.>|
-- Karl Marx
|Mar-05-10|| ||BishopBerkeley: The Monty Python "Money Song":
"... You can keep your Marxist ways, for it's only just a phase: it's money, money, money makes the world go round!"
The song needs an update, of course, for the Euro, but there you have it....
(: Bishop Berkeley :)
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