< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 37 OF 44 ·
|Nov-29-11|| ||Ladolcevita: I cant believe this...
<Wannabe>I remember you are an American Chinese,and thus you spoke?How should I understand your words?
I'm certainly living in Zhejiang.But then why should I put"I'm living in Zhejiang,China"on my profile?People might most likely presume:Oh,this user might well be a foreigner who lives in Zhejiang,since s/he seems quite used to speaking English,and he is just "living"there.
So naturally I put"I'm from Zhejiang,China",which clearly states that I'm a native Chinese,and thus I might use the wrong word or do not understand some jokes or slangs here,or when in a discussion,or sometimes I may have not expressed my opinions as well as in Chinese or as some others in English,thus people might understand there might be a vague distance between my words and my opinion,so people would understand my posts better.
So what did you propose to demonstrate,when you reminded us of the literal meaning of the word"from"?Were I not living there,how can I justify myself stating"CG is not blocked here"?Clearly,there's not much ambiguous in my profile line,if one has also read my posts.
As I and some other users have already explained in that Hou-Koneru match page,the main reasons are twofold:1.language barrier 2.chess is known to few here,and I should add that:thanks to the wonderful success some Chinese chess players have achieved,chess gained some reputation and fame here,otherwise probably chess would be known to fewer people,since there are Chinese chess and Go and some other local games already,and overall such board games are usually less popular too.
So how many Chinese people would you expect to come to CG.com?And how many who actually have visited CG would you expect to post comments too,especially when they are not really versed in the language?
And as for the censorship,I can tell you,some years ago,I can go to blogspot and youtube too,I presume it is because there appears to be too much negative information about China or Chinese government that they were finally blocked,and wikipedia once was blocked here,but at present I found it work,so I guess our government is doing censorship for some reasons,not blocking any sites as you presume,like CG.com,and what's the most ridiculous in your post is something like"<I guess thats a bit of progress. Although Face Book is banned in China, she doesn't get in trouble for claiming to use it when travelling outside of China>",or"<I see a reluctance here of people who are actually living in Russia or China to make it very clear that they are in fact in Moscow, Beijing, Hong Kong, St. Petersberg, and so forth. I believe this stems from a lingering fear of censors, who are still active, or from the very real fear that the chat room sites are officially frowned upon.>"...
Let me tell you like this,people here criticizes the government as much as people elsewhere,and indeed there are many social or historical issues and problems here,so no one fears to be officially frowned upon,and let alone claiming one's accurate location in a foreign site,there's really nothing special.Frankly these things I have never thought of,and I guess only someone who perhaps have similar experiences or of such knowledge would invent such a topic out of nowhere and introduce it to people,is it you?
Anyway I hope you know that only those who respect others would receive others' respect,after all It's not really subtle that you intend to arouse other people replying to you,and tread upon people's social contract,but people who still replies to you has already seen you in a lower position,and decides to reply to the topic for its own sake.
|Nov-29-11|| ||Ladolcevita: <HeMateMe>
You should know that in both India and Philippines,English is an official language.This explains a great deal.
And thanks for your praise as you imagined that I was American or a Briton,etc.,but that I was not.
And let me tell you more about the online censorship here. Yes,one would get arrested here if one had posted something that really damages our society,for instance some one posted rumors about earthquakes,causing the massive panic in particular areas,and affected people's normal life,so do you think it not fair them to be arrested by government according to their IP and accurate location?But why would a government follow a random guy in some foreign sites,some complaints people make in their chatting.Just imagine how many Chinese people there are,and you see how unfeasible it is to monitor any people talking about politics or suchline online.I myself also had occasionally talked about politics with some of my friends online,and we feel quite easy and comfortable,it's just normal talk,exchanging our opinions,so it's difficult for me to understand your words such as "officially frowned upon"...I think western people have taken these issues totally wrong,they thought everyone the same,every country the same,yes,they are similar,but certainly different,it's not what you have imagined would necessarily be true in another land,another culture,another country.They do not remember when Columbus reached an island long time ago,how warm the native people welcome them,giving them valuable things,yet what he had in his mind,and expressed in his letter to perhaps the Spanish Queen,cant really remember,that they should send more ships here to take possession of the island,to make native people their slaves,etc.Well,this is just one small instance,anyway...
I really find it hard,as a Chinese,that nowadays,western people still prefer criticizing others,while never talking about their own mistakes the history has seen.They just always say things like"Oh,China is blocking sites",yet they never understand more.Dating back to a very ancient time,China has already put forward ideas like"all over the world,we are friends""When a friend comes from afar,isnt it so delightful?",it's not about blocking sites,but rather,anyone who knows about freedom and politics should not hold such a one-sided opinion.I would rather consider them excuses and guises to other ends.
Anyway,I will just stop here...Besides,I guess from my words,one can also see that I'm a native Chinese.
|Nov-29-11|| ||HeMateMe: <Lad> We always criticize ourselves, here in the USA. Our political television shows are nothing but a food fight, night in and night out.|
China has....1.3 billion people right now? The better educated populace, who speak English are living in the urban areas, which have the greatest internet access. If you google "chess" this site will come up. 1.3 billion people, and there is a shortage of those who play chess and speak English? I'm afraid you won't be able to convince me of this. I believe there is still censorship going on, both actual blockage of sites where one can "chat" with others around the world, and also fear of users in some countries of being randomly observed by government censors.
|Nov-29-11|| ||Catholic Bishop: <We don't seem to have that sort of dialogue going on. For me, the only logical conclusion is that these sites with chat features are blocked in Russia and China, or government censors sporadically monitor citizen's web accounts and can make trouble for those who are too outspoken.> Funnily enough, you can ariive at the same conclusion about Japan since I barely see any Japanese commentators on Nakamura's page.|
|Nov-29-11|| ||Petrosianic: <Funnily enough, you can ariive at the same conclusion about Japan since I barely see any Japanese commentators on Nakamura's page.>|
You probably don't see many Cubs fans on Lou Brock's page either. There is such a thing as sour grapes.
|Nov-29-11|| ||Ladolcevita: <HeMateMe>
All right,I see:)
Yes,I've seen a British General Election Debate once,and that's really very impressive!
And with regard to your question,I think I've already explained it before:
<<Hemateme> As I and some other users have already explained in that Hou-Koneru match page,the main reasons are twofold:1.language barrier 2.chess is known to few here,and I should add that:thanks to the wonderful success some Chinese chess players have achieved,chess gained some reputation and fame here,otherwise probably chess would be known to fewer people,since there are Chinese chess and Go and some other local games already,and overall such board games are usually less popular too. So how many Chinese people would you expect to come to CG.com?And how many who actually have visited CG would you expect to post comments too,especially when they are not really versed in the language?>
Statistics could be misleading anyway,and maybe for you,it is difficult to visualize a world where chess is peripheral and English-speaking is rare.Yes,indeed the Chinese government attaches great importance to English in the national education system,but most people study English because they have to pass exams,and usually they dislike English because they feel its hard and say why should they study it,when they never meet a foreigner in their entire life,and Chinese is completely sufficient(yes,actually here one doesnt hear English at all,all people are speaking and only speaking Chinese or dialects,english only belongs to the school and the international areas that most people usually dont partake in);and for those who are pretty good at English,they perhaps have never touched a chess board at all or never heard about it,or rather,merely heard about it somewhere in some news perhaps;and then for those who are interested in chess,as you said,they might google(or I guess baidu is more likely,the Chinese counterpart of google,though that mainly offers one Chinese sites and perhaps a small number of English sites,if one searches an English item,so I checked the word"chess",and I simply cant find CG.com in the first 10 pages,where I decide not to continue,and moreover, most likely they pehaps will baidu the Chinese translation of chess:guojixiangqi(I will just type pinyin here)/literally means international chess,or xiyangqi/the translation perhaps popular in Hongkong,Taiwan,etc./literally means western chess;so apparently it's impossible to find CG.com by such means),but still,for those who actually find CG.com,with also a good command of the language,yet to register and post comments is even another matter.Just imagine,if you went to sites that is not in your mother tongue,and though you perhaps have a knowledge of it,do you really feel easy,effortless and thus comfortable there?Do you want to embark upon a journey where you probably have to modify and modify a post,to meet new words endlessly,and sometimes slightly at a loss when you fail to express your opinion as well as in your own language,or sometimes you write and write until you dont know where you are,and miss some points here and there?Is it not tiresome? For me,you see,I dont really come here very often and usually I just post short comments.But in fact CG.com is quite a splendid site:)
So you see,what you found not convincing is actually very simple and reasonable,so I hope you can understand it now.
|Nov-29-11|| ||WannaBe: <Ladolcevita> People always ask me where I am from, I always reply 'My mother's womb'.|
To me, from doesn't not necessary mean where you are now. But I was more or less teasin' <Chessmoron> than anything else.
I can also put "I am from Siberia" in my profile, but does that really mean I was originally born in Siberia and/or still living there? No, 'course not. =)
What <Chessmoron> was trying to tell us was the censorship issue, and he used you as an example of accessing the internet.
And unfortunately, I also used you as a counter example to his argument. Big mess, aye?!
Yes, I am American, with my biological father/mother being Chinese. (Don't think I was adopted... At least they haven't told met yet.) I am from my mother's womb, even though she won't admit it.
|Nov-29-11|| ||Catholic Bishop: <You probably don't see many Cubs fans on Lou Brock's page either. There is such a thing as sour grapes.>|
Lol trust me the Japanese would find such an analogy utterly absurd. They go by blood, not the cute little flag thingy on the table blocking the view of the board. And better yet, you couldn't even tell he's mixed.
|Nov-29-11|| ||Petrosianic: You could be right, I don't know much about Japanese culture. I do something similar myself. I follow the Tennessee Titans, because to me they're still the Houston Oilers.|
|Nov-29-11|| ||ChessXin: <HeMateMe>
I hope you learn some Chinese and visit some Chinese sites to read what people say about the Chinese government. You will be surprised to see how much criticism is there.
Your assumption that Chinese people don't post on this site because of censorship is plainly wrong. First, there are not a lot of people care about Chess. Second, if you can use your native language to post, why use the second language?
By the way, CNN and BBC don’t have such a good reputation in China. Some people view them as anti-China propaganda machines, not the real news organizations.
Also, it is true that there is a lot of political debate in West. But, in my opinion, a lot of them are about the debating style to attract voters, not the solutions of actual issues. How many times have we seen a politician make a promise he/she can’t keep?
|Nov-29-11|| ||HeMateMe: <Lad> I stand behind my comments, because mainland China has a history of censorship. As I said, just recently the Chinese government requested that computers shipped to China with MS Word built in be equipped with a function that allows your government to either block certain sites or monitor the activity on these sites.|
I doubt University students have 100%, unmonitored access to the internet. Tiananmen Square was not so long ago, and you still don't have a democratically elected government.
|Nov-29-11|| ||s4life: <HeMateMe: I'm not offended or paranoid. Nor was I trying to get under your skin. But, one gets a sense of a poster's country from what they say, and how they say it.>|
I think you went a bit too fast in your claims re: censorship and population distribution here at cg.com. I would tend to agree with chessmoron here.. there aren't many chinese posters around due to a language barrier rather than censorship per se... after all, why would they even need to come here? chinese is the dominant language in the internet by far.
|Nov-29-11|| ||chessmoron: <HeMateMe> Do you why CCP blocks Facebook, twitter, and blogs that is owned by wordpress or blogspot? Because CCP have no control. So what they do is inviting Chinese-American entrepeneurs to create copies of Facebook (Renren), twitter (Sina Weibo) and also blogs (Sina blogs and others) and impose self-censorship to things that is a threat to their leadership. Even with the self-imposed censorships, it hardly deters people to cancel their accounts and continue to voice their opinions.|
So your point that history of censorship that deters Chinese and Russians away from chess blogs like chessgames.com is not true.
|Nov-29-11|| ||alexmagnus: <Chinese government attaches great importance to English in the national education system,but most people study English because they have to pass exams,and usually they dislike English because they feel its hard and say why should they study it,when they never meet a foreigner in their entire life,and Chinese is completely sufficient(yes,actually here one doesnt hear English at all,all people are speaking and only speaking Chinese or dialects,english only belongs to the school and the international areas that most people usually dont partake in)>|
Reminds me of the (post-)Soviet situation. Everyone learned English at school but most don't speak it at any reasonable level :D.
|Nov-29-11|| ||alexmagnus: <HMM>As for Russia, I am a regular visitor to a Russian chess forum and they use CG too - just not to talk, only to watch/browse games :). |
As for you meeting many (Russian) emigrants here - well, there are many. The population of European post-Soviet countries sinks - and emigration plays in that sinking about the same role as mortality. BTW I didn't see any Chinese emigrant here... Are there any at all?
|Nov-29-11|| ||TheFocus: I was going to comment on how cute Yifan was until I saw she was only 16.|
Then I felt like a perv!
I have a son that old!
|Nov-29-11|| ||HeMateMe: <Do you why CCP blocks Facebook, twitter, and blogs that is owned by wordpress or blogspot? Because CCP have no control.>|
That makes absolutely no sense. You are saying that the Chinese Communist Party blocks facebook, twitter, and international news sites like CNN and the BBC. Then, you claim that the authorities "look the other way", don't care if people use technological trickery to get around it?
Just the fact that the government blocks the websites in the first place should tell you that something is terribly wrong.
And, I find it hard to believe that people in Russia and China who speak passable English don't try and find out a bit more about the world around them, by talking about the government, world media, health concerns, and a lot of other subjects that concern us all. We DO get those comments from the posters here who live in India, Norway, Mexico and other countries.
I feel you are denying an embarrassing problem, denying it's existance.
|Nov-29-11|| ||alexmagnus: Don't know about China, but in Russia they talk about it all, just in Russian. And yes, with links to foreign websites too.|
Anyway, talking about Russia <and> China is nonsensical, as the political situation is completely different in these two countries. As is the censorship-related situation.
|Nov-29-11|| ||chessmoron: <Then, you claim that the authorities "look the other way", don't care if people use technological trickery to get around it?>|
They can with certain proxies where proxy owners doesn't update and don't get fixed. As far as in paid VPN goes, it seems that CCP can't figure out how to disrupt it.
<and international news sites like CNN and the BBC.> CNN and BBC news is NOT blocked in China BTW. You can check by supplying the appropriate websites and perform a test if it is blocked in China or not. Link: http://www.websitepulse.com/help/te...
It also says that chessgames.com is hardly blocked at all.
<Just the fact that the government blocks the websites in the first place should tell you that something is terribly wrong.> Not going to argue you over that however it is irrelevant to why can more Russians and Chinese come to chessgames.
<We DO get those comments from the posters here who live in India, Norway, Mexico and other countries.> I don't hear it from the French, Hungarians, Brazilians, etc. I guess they are so afraid of being suppressed.
|Nov-30-11|| ||Ladolcevita: <WannaBe>
All right,I see:)
Yes,I understand what you meant,the nationality is different,I know.But the reason why I was surprised before was that you seemed quite hostile to China when you are biologically Chinese.I mean,if I were a Chinese born otherwhere,I would perhaps do not care China that much,but at least I might willingly say some good words or clarification when the occasion arises(like<dumbgai>did in Hou-Koneru page),or at least would not stand opposed to China.That seems more natural to me.So then I was somewhat surprised.
But anyway,now I see your point:)
|Nov-30-11|| ||Ladolcevita: <ChessXin>
Yes,many are just to attract voters,but it's still quite impressive when you can hear those leaders or candidates talking about their views in public.But yes,that doesnt mean they will keep their promises after election...anyway,I'm just talking about it from the perspective of an audience.
|Nov-30-11|| ||Ladolcevita: <HeMateMe>
I'm really tired of your endless accusations...
I wonder how many people here have you on ignore,I once did,but I felt it was weird to have someone on ignore,so I undid it...anyway,as I said,usually I didnt come here so often.I can only hope that you learn what courtesy means,and if you keep meddling with the conversation and annoying others,I'm sorry,people have their own business,they dont have to spend time on someone they neither admire nor respect nor feel friendly.
BTW,isnt ignore a censorship?Why is censorship necessarily undesirable?And which government has no censorship in any time anywhere on the earth?
You said<Mainland China has a history of censorship>,so I open a book,of some selected writings by Thomas Jefferson,and there's one article named<censorship of books>,talking about the religious censorship at that time.This is just one of the endless instances,because I only bought this book long time ago to improve my English,I really didnt mean to find any proofs for today's discussion.
And talking about religion,also one could recall that Bruno who was burnt in a square,and clearly his books were censored.Such instances abound,so I think it's obvious who have a history of censorship.
And then talking about the censorship,why is it necessarily undesirable?
Yes,if the government is doing the wrong censorship,that is wrong,but what's wrong with blocking sites that are full of violence,porn,negative information etc.?
Just imagine,if you have a kid,do you want them to browse those websites,in the name of freedom?Yes,freedom,so why not give your kid freedom to take drugs,to bring the negative information to them so that they lose any positive faith when they dont even grow up?Become a cynic or suchlike?The world is not all a fine place,but I believe all parents will do for their kids is to protect them from such kind of things.So isnt that a censorship,and is that wrong?If your government doesnt filter things for you,who will do?So it's not censorship that matters,it's whether the government is doing the reasonable censorship,or patently wrong censorship.
|Nov-30-11|| ||Ladolcevita: Secondly,you said<and you still don't have a democratically elected government.>democracy,I can see you dont understand this either.
Normally a democratic country is more difficult to make progress,because everyone is thinking about themselves.But it is good because by that we can correct our mistakes when it is not too late,like sometime in history.But actually if the government is good enough,if the people are kind and sensible enough,it's not necessarily that terrible if there's no demoracy.To put it in brief,whether it is democracy or not,people remain roughly the same,they still make mistakes and there are still murders etc.,it's not what matters that whether it is democratic or not,but it's the people,the real situation under the big terms of its regime.For instance,China,especiall the past China,not much westernized,people are genuinely warm and kind to others.So as I've said once in CG.com,when Sommerset Maugham once visited China,and he was totally surprised how democratic people were,and more democratic than the west,even though the regime was completely feudalism,when he saw what happened between an official and a coolie.It's hard for me to explain everything,but traditional Chinese do not view the world as westerners view,yet the westerners could never stretch their minds a little larger to understand what others are actually like,and perhaps slightly different from themselves...Yes,I do not say democracy is not good,or China doesnt need democracy,I just mean it depends.And I can see how valuable democracy is to western people,because people there are pehaps self-centred and independent,the individualism someone will say,and also according to the history,western people invades other countries and wages wars,so without demoracy,I guess western world will make such mistakes too.But to China,a country that sends her fleet to as far as the India,the Africa,the Middle East at roughly the same time when some western countries sends their fleet to invade and colonize other countries,yet China never did that,they just came back from the ocean,after some commercial trade or offical visits in those areas.And dont forget,that it is China that invents the compass,the bomb,the printing,yet she never uses these things in a terrible way.It is western countries that often make science a regretful achievement.So I always think western countries should learn from history more than other countries,because I felt many other countries,like China,per se is quite pacific,though as I have also stated before.they are different but similar,I do not intend to beautify my country,since there are many social or historical problems here too,and China is more and more westernized after the invasion,and we are all human beings too,naturally all have made many mistakes in history.|
Anyway,I would stop here.I'm not an official,not a historian,not a writer,I cant explain everything,and with a pleasant pen.I'm just saying these because I'm Chinese,and I hope it will suffice to let people understand my country a little better.
|Nov-30-11|| ||moronovich: <Ladolcevita> An interesting read.And thanks to you for trying to give a view of how life can be in China !|
See you & cheers!
|Nov-30-11|| ||HeMateMe: <Lad> You are an army of one, most admirable. And as for the other 1,299,999,999 folks in your neck of the woods....? I'm afraid I would have to have a bit more feedback, before I change my opionion. I feel you are in the minority, and speaking out of hope, instead of acknowledging an unfortunate reality.|
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