< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 64 OF 64 ·
|Mar-06-17|| ||Big Pawn: I think a 20 year old Tyson could beat a 20 year old Clay. But I don't think a 20 year old Tyson would be a prime Ali, like the Ali that beat Cleveland Williams. |
One thing to keep in mind is that Tyson's opponents let him do whatever he wanted with his feet. They gave him a free hand. Tyson was allowed to have his feet in punching position, with full leverage. A good boxer will make you shift position with your feet so that you aren't able to get off your good shots. You need to be in position with your front foot inside his his front foot. Ali would always "turn" his opponents. That's why Big George wasn't able to do his thing either.
Ernie Shavers and Foreman hit harder than Tyson. Foreman beat Moorer when he was like 44, and Moorer beat Holyfield who had beaten Tyson. Just think, if Foreman could walk into the HW division in his mid forties and become champ, how badass was he when he was 25 years old? Well, not bad enough to beat a past-prime Ali!
One more thing.
If Tyson had the same fighting spirit and inhuman determination as Frazier had, then he could beat Ali, say, 6 times out of 15. Frazier was not like Tyson who gave up if he met any resistance. Frazier swarmed his opponents, bobbing and moving all over, never stopped jumping and pushing and pulling and punching. In Ali-Frazier 1, those first 7 rounds were totally one-sided for Ali and yet Frazier still kept coming harder and harder.
Tyson didn't have that.
Tyson was just the modern version of Sonny Liston, who was great too, but Clay handled him with never seen before or again evasive techniques.
No one like Ali, ever.
Ali was the Donald Trump of boxing.
|Mar-06-17|| ||User not found: Okay.. I've read all that and I think you bring up some valid points but also some daft quotes that I have no intention of arguing with you about.. |
<If Tyson had the same fighting spirit and inhuman determination as Frazier had, then he could beat Ali, say, 6 times out of 15.>
I'm 50% in agreement. Joe Frazier is an icon and without question one of the most fearless men to ever step into the squared circle, I love the man, he's in my top 10 of <any> weight division (Ali, SRL, Duran, Hagler, Hearns, were all as brave) but Tyson had something he didn't... Speed, <more> power, and most importantly...head movement. Fraziers head had a bobbing up and down motion, Tyson learned to slip a punch whilst moving <side to side> and would throw a HARD punch gaining balance knocking many a man down. D'amato created a fighting machine. Frazier had a bigger heart though no doubt about that. Tyson did indeed fight bums, for me his absolute greatest <fight> (NOT <performance>! I think that's the Spinks fight) was the 2nd Ruddock fight. 12 rounds of slugging away at a man who wasn't afraid of him, a novelty to Tyson back then. Everytime he met someone close to him he struggled but you could also argue he peaked way too early. He was done by 26 years old whereas Ali wasn't. Ali was some kind of superhuman with an unbelievable chin.
<Tyson was just the modern version of Sonny Liston, who was great too, but Clay handled him with never seen before or again evasive techniques.>
Well firstly Liston was my age and on his way out when he fought Ali but Ali still humiliated him. Tyson was similar but only in stature and intimidation, as fighters Tyson would have took his head clean off of his shoulders. There's no other comparison, Tyson was faster, technically superior, fitter, head movement etc etc etc.. Just a superior boxer. I've seen all available fights from both Liston and Tyson, I'd put my life on Mike.
<No one like Ali, ever.>
In any sport.
<Ali was the Donald Trump of boxing.>
Don't EVER compare a great human being, possibly the greatest sportsman ever to a fat laughable pig of a man! You're delusional over Trump, I'm not here to talk about him, he makes me want to throw up.
|Mar-06-17|| ||Big Pawn: <Tyson learned to slip a punch whilst moving <side to side> and would throw a HARD punch gaining balance knocking many a man down. D'amato created a fighting machine.>|
But did you ever notice Tyson could *only* fight moving forward and he could never fight going side to side, circling left, circling right or going backwards?
Did you realize that Holyfield made that his strategy? If Holyfield didn't make Tyson go backwards, he would have lost. He's talked about it. Remember playing PacMan? When PacMan would eat the POWER pellets, he could eat the ghosts. That's like Tyson. When he was moving forward, it was like he ate the power pellet. When he wasn't going forward, he was inactive during that round.
So when we think of Tyson fighting Ali, there is the Ali of 64-66 and the Ali of 74-75. Ali in 74-75 could stand there, cover up, slow the fight down, hold, lean on his guy, lean on his neck, cover up some more, go to the ropes, take shots and come back later to win.
Who did this to Tyson? Well, Bonecrusher Smith didn't win, but he went the distance with Tyson in the style of a *very poor man's* 75 Ali. So we aren't talking about prime Ali, but rather the elder Ali with the slow style. This happened to be effective against Tyson as well as making him go backwards.
If it were Ali in there instead of Bonecrusher Smith, he would have survived like Smith did (no one took a better punch than Ali and no one covered up like Ali) but he also would have had the skills to land jabs and score points, going the distance and winning as the fight went on. Remember, after 3 rounds, Tyson wasn't *so* dangerous.
A lot of people only think of a prime Ali 64-66 going up against Tyson, but a good argument can be made for the 75 Ali as well.
One must always keep in mind that Ali took a punch better than any heavyweight ever. Sure, he went down a few times, but he took great shots from people like Frazier, Shavers and Foreman.
I watched live on TV back in the day. Tyson was thought to be unstoppable back then. It was like Liston all over again.
I saw him whoop Tony Tubbs too. Unreal. Then Larry Holmes but larry was very out of shape and past his prime.
The 2nd Ruddock fight was pretty good. Tyson fought hard in that one. With Mike, his problem was that he was a one trick pony and if the opponent could stuff his trick, the fight would be boring. Tyson's punch output would go down to almost nothing, a few punches, a clinch and that's it.
My favorite Tyson fight is the one he lost(!) against Buster Douglas. Back then I wasn't right for like 6 months after that. I was the biggest Tyson fan in the world and it killed me to see him lose. I was sad every day. Now when I watch it, I am amazed at Douglas's heart and determination. He just wasn't going to take it from Tyson.
Worst fight ever was either against McNeely or the 2nd Holyfield fight. Or, maybe there was one where he was disqualified in the late 90s that was worse. Golata possibly? Can't remember.
|Mar-06-17|| ||User not found: <But did you ever notice Tyson could *only* fight moving forward and he could never fight going side to side, circling left, circling right or going backwards?>|
Yes. But with the exception of men who were in their prime in a crap division (Think Lennox Lewis and his Ilk) <nobody> but Mohammed Ali has ever done that as a heavyweight. He was truly unique. I've seen SRL and other 145-160lbers make those kinda movements but never ever a heavyweight, so Tyson wasn't alone. You are right, but he was such a ruthless bully he wasn't used to taking a backwards step/getting hit back and apparently he was told to <always> fight but with the side to side, bobbing and weaving motions making him a moving target. His punches speak for themselves so if you can't hit him and he hits you it's lights out, adios, goodnight, pipe down.
<So when we think of Tyson fighting Ali, there is the Ali of 64-66 and the Ali of 74-75.>
I believe the Ali of 66, the Ali that turned up to fight Williams in the Houston superdome was the greatest heavyweight <boxer> of all time. He got dropped by Cooper in 1964 so I think it's safe to say Tyson would beat that Ali but no way Jose in 1966. Even Kaplan (that old fella that managed Tyson after D'amato, and had the biggest collection of boxing matches on video tape in the world) said, and I quote.. "Perhaps the most devastating fight and fighter I've ever witnessed" about the Ali/Williams fight! That's some accolade from a true boxing historian.
<Ali in 74-75 could stand there, cover up, slow the fight down, hold, lean on his guy, lean on his neck, cover up some more, go to the ropes, take shots and come back later to win.>
Only if he was fighting the Tyson of 1990 onwards. 86-89? Forget about it! I believe that Mike would have chipped away at Ali's body (who'd long stopped dancing at that point) and creased him up before knocking him out. Ain't no man in history can just stand there as a 20-21 year old Tyson hits you, lol. In TRITJ Foreman was pretty pathetic by round 6.. His punches were wide and slow, mikes were on a different level and even Holmes admits that nowadays.
<One must always keep in mind that Ali took a punch better than any heavyweight ever.>
Apart from Chuvalo. He never ever hit the canvas but yeah I know what you're saying.
<Sure, he went down a few times, but he took great shots from people like Frazier, Shavers and Foreman.>
Only Frazier dropped him from 64 onwards. And even that was in the 15th round!
I watched live on TV back in the day. Tyson was thought to be unstoppable back then. It was like Liston all over again.>
I saw SRL before Xmas at a meet and greet and asked him about Mike Tyson and that's <exactly> what he said. "I heard there was this kid with the power of Sonny Liston". I got the feeling all he wanted to talk about was Mohammed Ali and the infamous No Mas fight but he was a lovely bloke.
<I saw him whoop Tony Tubbs too. Unreal. Then Larry Holmes but larry was very out of shape and past his prime.>
But he took him 4 rounds (3?) and would have seen the round out had he not got his arm caught in the ropes, watch the fight again and slow down the KO... he throws a punch and his arm stops half way and he got sparked, a 45 second KO job.
<The 2nd Ruddock fight was pretty good. Tyson fought hard in that one. With Mike, his problem was that he was a one trick pony and if the opponent could stuff his trick, the fight would be boring. Tyson's punch output would go down to almost nothing, a few punches, a clinch and that's it.>
Amen! It was a silent agreement when he tied a fighter up and <whoever> he fought was more than happy with a "let's rest, I won't hit you so you don't hit me" kinda thing. But he only started tying fighters up post Douglas fight, he <never> ever ever took a backward step. Never!
One of the things that surprised me when I watched all available Ali fights (x5 easily!) was he never threw a body shot! Terrell and Williams possibly but I noticed that immediately about him, I didn't need to read about it I just noticed he didn't really believe in body shots. Exact opposite of Tyson who loved getting stuck in and in all seriousness.. Making a man bend over <towards him> (behave, lol) where he could make a big man into a small man.. Then he'd KO them.
All in all the Tyson of 86-89 is more exciting to watch but if you want to appreciate boxing, the sport, the fitness and the skill then there's no one compares to Ali. He made punching a man look, for want of a better word.. Beautiful.
|Mar-06-17|| ||User not found: And never forget that Ali was a <light heavyweight> aged 20, he 100% fought in the Olympics as a LH.. Tyson was a true heavyweight from 15 years old, born fighter.|
|Mar-07-17|| ||Big Pawn: <Only Frazier dropped him from 64 onwards.>|
Karl Mildenburger dropped him.
|Mar-07-17|| ||User not found: Oh yeah. His Achilles heel a sweet left. So from 66-80 he only got dropped once.|
|Mar-07-17|| ||Big Pawn: Chuck Wepner dropped him in 75.|
|Mar-07-17|| ||User not found: He slipped!! That wasn't a knock down and you know it|
|Mar-07-17|| ||Big Pawn: He kinda slipped but Chuck followed through with the punch under his heart and he got knocked down. |
It's funny to listen to Chuck Wepner recall that fight. He said he turned to his corner and said, "Boys! Start the car cuz we're going to the bank!" and his trainer said, "Chuck, he's getting up, and he looks PISSED!"
|Mar-07-17|| ||User not found: Haha 😅 He got sparked about 15 seconds from going the distance with Mohammed Ali so he's a little salty about that but only with the referee. I like Wepner and the crazy thing is he looks like he can fight better now than he did then, he's a bit like Chuvalo in that sense. Chuvalo must be pushing 70 and I'd still bottle it!|
|Mar-07-17|| ||Big Pawn: Chuvalo is quite lucid too. He remembers all the dates and locations of all his fights, like a chess player. He used to stand on his head for half an hour every day to work on his neck muscles, so that he wouldn't get knocked out.|
|Mar-07-17|| ||User not found: Chewing gum! Apparently that's the key to Chuvalo's good chin! I'll post you a link when I get time from my channel, he says it strengthened his neck and jaw muscles. As far as being lucid it's like he's never taken a beating, it's one of boxings great mysteries. Compare Chuvalo to Leon Spinks!!|
|Mar-07-17|| ||thegoodanarchist: The Tyson fight I remember best was against Trevor Berbick. A shot to the temple and it was all for over for Trevor except the finish.|
|Mar-07-17|| ||User not found: The only man to get KO'd by the same punch three times in the same fight, lol. Yeah that was a peak Tyson. Dundee was in Berbeck's corner that night and refused to shake Tyson's hand, he just didn't like Mike being compared to "My guy" meaning Mohammed Ali. Dundee said that "Ali would have slapped Tyson all over, made him look futile like a guy that wasn't cooperating". I don't know about that but I would have been team Ali no question.|
|Mar-07-17|| ||Big Pawn: Tyson saved HW boxing in the 80s. Once Larry Holmes retired, boxing was dead. It was actually dead after Ali retired (I'm talking about the HW division only) but Holmes was a great champion. Very underrated. |
There were all these bums like Quick Tillis, Tubbs, Bonecrusher Smith, Ruddock. Kind of like it is now.
Tyson was the biggest thing since Pac Man. I remember watching a fight of his before I really knew who he was. I forget who he was fighting, but it started out like any fight. A bit of moving around, some jabs, a clinch, a couple of connects. Okay, whatever... Then the other guy just went down like a piece of the ceiling fell on his head!
I told my father that he had to see Tyson. I told him that it's like watching any fight, but with Tyson, after he hits the other guy a few times, they just go down.
Then we watched Mike vs Spinks and Carl the Truth Williams. My father asked me back then who I thought would win a fight between Ali and Tyson. I said Tyson for a couple reasons.
One, I hadn't seen Ali fight as I was just a little too young. Two, I figured that no one could stand against Tyson's power.
When Tyson lost to Douglass, I thought it was the end of the world. I was sure it was a fluke. When Tyson got out of jail, I thought he could take Holyfield and Bowe one after another on the same night, no problem.
I was shocked to death when Holyfield emerged the winner. Couldn't believe it. Thought it was because Tyson didn't train enough since getting out of jail. I put my money on Tyson on their rematch and was sorely disappointed with the way it ended.
Years later, I can observe it all dispassionately and I realize I was being naive.
|Mar-07-17|| ||User not found: Just checking in before I get my head down so I'll reply properly tomorrow, work all done for the week and that, but if you think Razor Ruddock was a bum you're out of your @#$%*!&yed mind! Even Tyson says that it was his hardest opponent, after the first fight (stopped unfairly in the 7 or 8th) Tyson gave him a rematch because there was no one else to fight. After the 2nd fight Tyson said, and I quote.. "He's tough! He has a great future ahead of him, I want to fight him again, we could fight 4 times I just hope he doesn't do anything stupid and get knocked out". Yeah he got knocked out afterwards, lol but Steve Lott told me that if he was fighting today he'd be undisputed HW champion of the world and I <strongly agree>. Just go watch either Tyson v Ruddock fight then come back and call him a bum with a straight face? He was unbelievable! |
Definitely, 100% a prime Mike Tyson's most difficult opponent.
As for being naive in regards to Ali then I can relate to that. I've never ever disputed his greatness as a boxer <and> a human being though, I just thought Tyson edged it until I locked myself in my place for a week watching all his fights on repeat. #GOAT
I've just had such a wonderful day that I can't quite believe it given how it started. Revenge is sooooo sweet and when you can't physically get your hands on someone you have to resort to what I've done, but this day is up there with laying a hot blonde after a hot bath ! On my father's life you'll all understand very soon 😂 😂 😂
What. A. Day :)
|Mar-07-17|| ||User not found: I only said "god damyymm mind" and it got filtered!|
|Mar-09-17|| ||thegoodanarchist: Kenneth S Rogoff (kibitz #260345)|
You called it! And just minutes later, it happened exactly as you said.
Wow, I am impressed.
|Mar-09-17|| ||Big Pawn: He is such a pretender. What a charlatan! What a phony! |
<Spoogy> too. I don't care how many papers he wrote. Some people have mastered the art of faking it till the make it, even if they never make it.
They fake their way through college. They fake their way into a cushy job. They fake their way year after year and just fake it.
You did a bang up job setting them up for a subtle trap. Both of them. Must have felt good.
|Mar-10-17|| ||thegoodanarchist: I am hoping that your resolution to be concise will just apply to the Rogoff page.|
After all, your posts are, if nothing else, interesting. That's why so few put you on ignore, and so many reply to you (even if indirectly, as <zanzi> does so often)
Heck, I learned something from you just today. The Moral Argument. The way your opponents wept and gnashed teeth, one would have thought the Moral Argument was too difficult to even understand, let alone reply to.
Imagine my shock when I found it was simple. All I can say is, I hope those Ph.D.s who couldn't handle the Moral Argument didn't go to my school. I don't want the quality of my degree watered down...
|Mar-11-17|| ||diceman: <Be concise.
In an effort to be more concise, I am limiting myself to three posts a day. Each post can have no more than one paragraph of up to five sentences.>
Liberals are ignorant, cowardly, boring, immature.
I need “something” to make conversing with them interesting/challenging.
(Hopefully that fits the, “concise” metric)
|Mar-12-17|| ||cormier: ths <BP> ...|
|Mar-16-17|| ||Big Pawn: <tga> & <diceman>, it goes for the whole site, not just <rogoff>. I was thinking about quality writing around New Years and came up with a resolution to be more concise, but I forgot about it and blew it off. So I decided to limit myself to 3 posts a day etc, in order to exercise some discipline. But yes, <diceman>, your points do not go unnoticed and to some degree I am reaping the benefit of my self imposed limitation in the ways that you described. By limiting myself like this, I end up only conversing with the intelligent posters, because, truly, I am bored with the pretenders and idiots like <abdel>, <perfidious> and <tuna>, also <hmm> and <unf>.|
|Mar-17-17|| ||thegoodanarchist: I used to enjoy talking soccer with <unf>, but when he started posting politics on the rogoff page he became downright tedious.|
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