< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 397 OF 491 ·
|Jul-14-12|| ||Jim Bartle: I'd have to say no on Helton, unless he somehow keeps going and gets 3000 hits, which looks doubtful. Maybe if he'd played one of the other infield positions well, or centerfield, he'd deserve it, but as a first baseman, I just don't see it.|
He does have a lifetime .421 on-base percentage, which is awfully good, and was over .400 for eight straight years. And .390 lifetime on the road, which is also good.
Among the Rockies, I'd put Larry Walker ahead of Helton.
|Jul-14-12|| ||Jim Bartle: Just saw a variation on the Mark-Buehrle-between-the-legs play from a couple of years ago in the Cleveland-Toronto game (Tribe has come back from down 11-3 to 11-9).|
Smash off the pitcher's leg into foul territory, first baseman runs over and dribbles it toward first with his glove, behind his back. Pitcher gets the "throw" and basically blocks the runner (interferes) and tags him, also steps on the bag just in time. Tough call for the ump, but great play by the first baseman.
|Jul-14-12|| ||perfidious: <PB> and <Jim> Wondered whether you'd agree and you obviously do: Helton doesn't have the goods to get in there. Without Coors, he's lucky to have 2000 hits, though over 1300 runs scored and batted in are decent. Had he done a little more since 2004, I still wouldn't be convinced that would be enough.|
<Jim> At first when you mentioned Walker, I was sceptical, and I still don't know: his numbers were frightening when he was healthy, but he only played 150 games once in his career. At their respective peaks, I like Walker over Helton, though.
Walker's career stats:
|Jul-14-12|| ||Jim Bartle: Both Walker and Helton are trapped in "Dwight Evans World," populated by really good players who aren't/weren't quite good enough to be Hall of Famers.|
|Jul-14-12|| ||perfidious: <Jim> While there are worse players than Evans in Cooperstown, I'm not an inclusionist when it comes to this. In fact, I believe the HOF could quietly ease a few players out and not even have it noticed.|
|Jul-14-12|| ||Jim Bartle: All I meant to say is there are an awful lot of really good players who aren't really Hall of Famers. Guys like Jeff Kent, Darryl Strawberry, Curt Flood, Ken Boyer (though he has a case), Bert Blyleven, David Ortiz, Gary Sheffield, Bobby Grich, Andy Pettite, Mike Mussina, Bill Freehan, Dave Concepcion, Lew Burdette, etc.|
I think when you go to a game and see a guy who's played ten years or so, and you can say, "There's an all-time great," that's a Hall of Famer. Not somebody you look at after his career is over and you say, "Hey, that guy had a pretty great career."
|Jul-14-12|| ||I play the Fred: <I think when you go to a game and see a guy who's played ten years or so, and you can say, "There's an all-time great," that's a Hall of Famer. Not somebody you look at after his career is over and you say, "Hey, that guy had a pretty great career.">|
That's a rather slipshod way to approach the issue. We're talking about enshrining people for a (more or less) permanent honor, and for that candidates deserve a more rigorous process.
|Jul-14-12|| ||perfidious: <Jim> Absolutely-most of those players you named have enough going for them to merit consideration in the minds of many HOF voters, but there are either significant negatives or not quite enough on the positive side of the ledger. Believe Bill James once coined a term called the 'Bobby Bonds line', which he used, as he put it, to classify players of unquestioned excellence but marginal greatness.|
By your criterion in the second paragraph, Albert Pujols is the gold standard; if he never picked up another bat, he'd go in, first ballot. Frank Thomas, same thing when his turn comes-his numbers were monstrous from 1991-97, though he wasn't much of a first baseman. Only thing I see holding him out come 2014 is the same taint which kept Jeff Bagwell (another monster) from first-ballot land, and unfairly so, in my opinion.
|Jul-14-12|| ||WannaBe: Blyleven made it, M. Wills still haven't, R. Dempsey is a good player, longevity for a catcher, M. Sciocia also, who broke in '80 and retired in '92 (all with the Dodgers), won World Series in '81 and '88 as player, and guided Angels to their World Series win over the Giants. |
The list can go on and on and on...
|Jul-15-12|| ||Travis Bickle: Hey Phony, before ya know it the NFL players will be reporting to training camp in preparation for Pre-Season football!|
|Jul-15-12|| ||Phony Benoni: Hey, Travis, looks like next week for most teams. Here's a schedule:|
Bears report July 25th, Lions veterans July 26th. Makes sense. The Bears are going to need that extra day of practice.
|Jul-15-12|| ||Travis Bickle: Yeah they want to work that extra day on getting to Stafford! LOL!|
|Jul-15-12|| ||Shams: <Travis> Sounds like the Bears are hoping to play that kid from Boise State off the end. If he works out that's pretty good bookend pass rushers. Once again Seattle is going to Chicago this year. Might as well join the damn North.|
|Jul-15-12|| ||Travis Bickle: <Shams> I sure hope that kid from Boise State lives up to expectations at DE for The Bears. The Bears were the favorites to get superstar DE Mario Williams. Of course the cheap Chicago owners, The damn McCaskey's went the draft route. Julius Peppers & Mario Williams would strike terror in NFL QB's! There was a nice crop of Offensive lineman which The Bears have needed forever who they could have selected with a 1st round pick. We'll see.|
|Jul-15-12|| ||Jim Bartle: I play the fred: Of course my method is slipshod. It's just a general feeling about which players are Hall of Famers are and which aren't.|
|Jul-15-12|| ||playground player: <Wannabe> Rick Dempsey in the Hall of Fame? Rick Dempsey??? But not Thurman Munson, Earl Battey, Gus Triandos, Del Crandall, and any number of catchers who were better than Dempsey and Scioscia put together? Can we at least bypass Chris Cannizarro?|
|Jul-15-12|| ||Jim Bartle: If they open a comedy wing of the Hall of Fame, Dempsey would waltz in alongside Bob Uecker, Jay Johnstone and Andy van Slyke.|
|Jul-15-12|| ||Jim Bartle: Anyone heard of Mysterious Walker? Wonder why he got the name. Maybe the mystery was why he was permitted to get a 4-16 record in the Federal League.|
|Jul-15-12|| ||WannaBe: In '88 when the Dodgers had D. Sutton, R. Dempsey on the team, one night, they formed (back then, I believe) the oldest combined age for pitcher-catcher.|
"Sutton was clocked at 95 mph, the throw to me was at 75, and I threw it back at 20" -- Dempsey
Or something similiar/along those lines.
|Jul-15-12|| ||Phony Benoni: Hmm. 136 walks, 143 strikeouts. Maybe it was a mystery where the ball was going.|
"Mysterious" may have been part of a non-de-plume, allowing him to play professional baseball without losing his amateur status. Judging by his results, there was little chance of the latter. But he did have his good days:
And here he comes close to pitching a no-hitter:
But there were even more bad days:
He appears to have been a colorful eccentric. See the bottom of the second column:
Was also was a spitballer, which may have contributed to his control issues.
|Jul-15-12|| ||I play the Fred: <I play the fred: Of course my method is slipshod. It's just a general feeling about which players are Hall of Famers are and which aren't.>|
Sorry, Jim. I think I read the original post as <This is the only way to choose a Hall of Famer>. I wasn't having a banner evening then.
|Jul-15-12|| ||WannaBe: 'Strange' play at last night's SD-LAD game:
<Pinch-runner Everth Cabrera decided to steal home when Los Angeles closer Kenley Jansen turned his back walking on the mound. The closer hurriedly threw the ball over catcher A.J. Ellis and to the backstop, allowing Cabrera to score, and Will Venable followed from second on the error, giving the Padres the lead for good.>
So, did the umpire signal play ball? Once the ball is returned to the pitcher with base-runner(s) on, is the ball automatically in play?
|Jul-15-12|| ||Phony Benoni: Both that LA-SD play and the CLE-TOR play <JB> mentioned yesterday can be seen here:|
<WannaBe> I think the point is that the ball was never out of play. The ball becomes dead only when time is called, something that is not automatically done after each pitch. This looks like a case of the Padres observing the pitcher's habits and taking an advantage offered to them under the rules.
<JB> If there was any interference on the play, it was offensive interference by the batter against the pitcher. The rules clearly give the benefit to the fielder in that situation, which is as it should be as he is the one more likely to be injured in the situation. It is up to the batter to avoid the interference.
First, two definitions from rule 2.00:
"OFFENSIVE INTERFERENCE is an act by the team at bat which interferes with, obstructs, impedes, hinders, or confuses any fielder attempting to make a play."
Defensive interference only involves interfering with the hitter. When a runner is involved, it is obstruction.
"OBSTRUCTION is the act of a fielder who, <while not in possession of the ball and not in the act of fielding>, impedes the progress of any runner."
Here, the pitcher was clearly in the act of fielding the ball, so he is protected. There is even a comment to that effect.
So it was the batter's responsibility to avoid any interference. 6.05k notes that the batter is normally out for running outside the three foot line:
"...except that he may run outside (to the right of) or inside (to the left of) the foul line to avoid a fielder attempting to field a batted ball..."
So the batter could have been called out for interference had the play not been made.
|Jul-15-12|| ||WannaBe: Dum': http://espn.go.com/new-york/nba/sto...|
|Jul-15-12|| ||Jim Bartle: Aside from the play itself, the clip of Cabrera stealing home featured to of the all-time great announcers, Dick Enberg and Vin Scully.|
I wonder about who was interfering on that play at first. It seems ambiguous to me. First of all, he was catching a "throw," not fielding a hit ball. Not sure whether that matters.
But it did seem possible to say the pitcher was standing in front of first base before the ball arrived, meaning he wasn't fielding the ball. In truth it seemed he was more just standing on the bag, not in front of it.
Later in the day, maybe the same game, I saw a drive take one bounce and hit the pitcher in the shin. It bounced nice as you please to the first baseman, who just stepped on the bag.
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