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|Nov-20-13|| ||Tiggler: <DcGentle> That pawn was weak where it was, and propagated its weakness to the e-pawn that was obliged to support it. Now the e-pawn can capture on f4, as it must when the f2 pawn advances, as it should, without leaving the d-pawn to be captured. Our pawns are stronger now the d-pawn has advanced, and white's c and b pawns will be weaker when the c-pawn advances, as it must.|
|Nov-20-13|| ||Tiggler: <DcGentle: <Tiggler> This wing example got into my mind too, when I thought about things generated by the evolution, but I also remembered reading about research results reporting about intermediate stages, where the respective animals were only able to "fly" from some tree to the next or so>|
Even before that, it has been suggested that feathers were useful for thermal insulation. And then wings helped in climbing trees. Woodpeckers still climb up tree trunks that way, with the help of a few wing beats. I watch some of them in my back garden, where sometimes they even nest in my trees.
|Nov-21-13|| ||DcGentle: <Tiggler: .. <That pawn was weak where it was, and propagated its weakness to the e-pawn that was obliged to support it.>>|
Sorry to disagree. I am seriously considering writing an article about pawn chains. This is what I found here:
"A pawn chain is two or more diagonally linked pawns. A line of pawns in a chain has the advantage that all of its units are defended by other pawns, with the exception of the rear most pawn, the pawn that lies at the base. As the old cliché goes, “a chain is only as strong as its weakest link” holds true in chess. Nimzovich taught that a pawn chain should be attacked at its weakest point, that is the base of the pawn chain."
This is not a bad introduction. Of course there is much more to say about pawn chains, because these are one foundation of positional play in chess.
<Boomie> said, that the team would be "starting to excel at positional chess." I can only say that I got _zero_ support from the more experienced analysts (no need to name someone here) for my suggestions to play it positionally. In spite of the tremendous success of the game against Akobian, it has not come across the minds of these people, why this was possible at all. It's being reduced to his alleged "mistakes", he "didn't take it seriously", or whatever excuses these people might find.
By advancing the d-pawn, these people made it impossible to build proper pawn chains, and forget about the consequences I won't mention now, maybe in my article.
The only hope for the team is a mistake of Williams now.
So the team chose gambling instead of a serious try. Sorry to say this, but this is the truth.
|Nov-21-13|| ||Tiggler: <DcGentle>:< I can only say that I got _zero_ support from the more experienced analysts (no need to name someone here) for my suggestions to play it positionally.>|
I don't think that was the case. It is just that others didn't agree with your interpretation of "positional" in this case.
The pawn chain you advocated in this case (g7-f6-e5-d4) was just horribly unstable and therefore not positionally sound at all. Every pawn in that chain would have been under attack, some of them twice or more, and that includes the one at the base. Even the white B on b2 was effectively striking indirectly down the entire chain. On top of that, the structure would be immobile because you can't move four pawns simultaneously. White's pawns, meanwhile, are mobile.
Sorry, <DcG>, but you got this one wrong. If that conclusion conflicts with your basic ideas that's especially tough, because maybe you have to revise them.
|Nov-21-13|| ||DcGentle: <Tiggler: <The pawn chain you advocated in this case (g7-f6-e5-d4) was just horribly unstable...>>|
As soon as White has lost his f-pawn, there is no white pawn left to attack the pawn chain you mention, and because the black rook can stay on h7, the protection of g7 and the whole pawn chain is rock solid. On the other hand, <theoretically> White would be able to advance only 2 pawns of his chain c1 to f5 namely the c- or d-pawn, the e- and f-pawn are blocked.
But in praxis this doesn't happen, because White would weaken his queenside position even more than it is due to the lack of the a-pawn.
So the pawn structure is very stable after all, White is seriously handicapped. <imag> was the only one to suggest an improvement, and this was a piece move, not a pawn move, and this caused no problems to integrate.
The positional method made sense under these conditions, and there are other reasons, why none of the experienced analysts really cared about it.
One of the reason is the better evals for other moves, and the other has to do with group dynamics, and I won't go into this here. But guess why <DanLanglois> voted for <18... d3>. The real reason has nothing to do with chess.
And of course the engine heads don't like closed positions, because their engines don't really work this well there, they know this from the last game.
There you have it.
|Nov-21-13|| ||Tiggler: <As soon as White has lost his f-pawn> |
Nothing could stop that f2 pawn going to f4, and then black's e- and f-pawns are both exchanged. The pawn chain just evaporates.
|Nov-21-13|| ||DcGentle: <Tiggler>: Of course White can play <f4> early in the game, and I examined <all> f4 - variations, it's just a different game. The positional method of restriction cannot be applied always, and in these cases it's not necessary either, Black win anyways.|
If you want to, you can copy all 4 parts of the pgn file I posted on the Analysis Forum into a file and remove some superfluous lines, making it usable, and copy it into your GUI. There are more than 100 single lines on this file, by the way, but the f4 - variations can be detected easily, I hope.
|Nov-21-13|| ||Tiggler: <If you want to, you can copy all 4 parts of the pgn file I posted on the Analysis Forum into a file and remove some superfluous lines, making it usable, and copy it into your GUI.>|
And how will that help us to win: analyzing lines that are no longer in play?
Maybe you have retired from the actual game, but I am not ready yet to do so.
|Nov-21-13|| ||Tiggler: All this talk of pawn-chains is misguided in a position that is not yet even semi-blocked.|
It seems to me you are on a hobby horse.
|Nov-22-13|| ||DcGentle: If you refer to the actual game, you are right, pawn chains have lost their power to restrict the opponent. After <18... d3> it's a totally different game.|
This move allows White to draw, but whether he will do, it's upon him, and the team cannot prevent it.
I would like to prevent it, but I looked at these positions weeks ago, but sometimes things are hopeless in chess, even if they don't look as such from a superficial glance.
Of course this only holds true, if White will find the best moves.
As I said, the team is gambling.
|Nov-22-13|| ||Tiggler: How about a trip down memory lane:
<kwid: Oct-26-12 DcGentle: <<YouRang>: <DcGentle><kb2ct> Thanks for the responses.> <No problem. At least you are moving on. But it's often the same after a voting, a big part of voters may be dismayed, because they did invest much time and effort on a move that was not chosen in the end.... I am trying to figure how to avoid such future disappointments.>
Well, to me it seems irresponsible to lobby for a line if they do not have absolute proof to back it up if other data is already available.
Ne3 lines were worked out close to the point of mate annunciation. While h3 got the cheer leading from the same group who canvassed for Qc2 if I remember correctly.>
The above was posted after white had played 19.h3
And how about this one, posted soon after white played 16.Qe2:
Premium Chessgames Member benjinathan: <all we have it seems, is a bunch of big fragile egos.>
and a guy who it seems can never figure out that his style is counter productive and disliked, despite being told these facts numerous times.
yeah, we know you think we should have played Rg1. we get it. we really do.
Can you please be quiet about it until the post mortem anyway? Or, if you are so unhappy, just find something else to do?>
|Nov-22-13|| ||Tiggler: Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.
|Nov-22-13|| ||DcGentle: <Tiggler>: If it was like Qc2 or Rg1, that is, if the team had a real chance to win with either move, I would be motivated again, but tell me, as long as Williams plays the lines leading into a safe draw, why should I put any big effort into this undertaking? I looked into these lines earlier and now and then I look into them again, but so far only draws. |
So no need to speak up on the pages.
Maybe Williams will miss something, I guess this will be apparent to others as well. You see, it's not the case that I didn't warn the team, but they didn't believe me. It's not about my move being played, don't misunderstand me. I want the team to win. But what can you do if these people stubbornly stick to the wrong move?
|Nov-23-13|| ||DcGentle: The draw situation is even worse than I thought, and on the WT pages they are having illusions:|
1. b3 e5 2. Bb2 Nc6 3. e3 Nf6 4. Bb5 Bd6 5. g4 a6 6. Bf1 h6
7. h3 Be7 8. Bg2 d5 9. Nc3 Be6 10. Nge2 d4 11. Ne4 Nxe4 12.
Bxe4 Bd5 13. Ng3 Bxe4 14. Nxe4 Qd7 15. Qf3 Nb4 16. O-O-O
Nxa2+ 17. Kb1 Nb4 18. Qf5 d3 19. c4 Qxf5 20. gxf5 f6 21. Ba3
a5 22. Bxb4 axb4 23. Kb2 Kf7 24. Rhg1 Ra3 25. Ra1 Rxa1 26.
Kxa1 h5 27. h4 Rh6 28. Rg3 g6 29. Rf3 Rh8 30. Ng3 g5 31. Ne4
g4 32. Rg3 Ra8+ 33. Kb2 c6 34. Rg1 b6 35. Rg3 Bc5 36. Rg2
Ke7 37. Rg1 Bd6 38. Ra1 Ra3 39. Ra2 Kd7 40. Ra1 Kc7 41. Rg1
Be7 42. Ra1 1/2-1/2
click for larger view
Black to move faces a perfect blockade.
Of course the main culprit is white pawn c4, even if Black advances their queenside pawns, a white pawn will remain on c4.
|Nov-23-13|| ||mistermac: I have taken note of your post on my forum. Whether I shall reform as a result is a different matter.|
|Nov-23-13|| ||DcGentle: By the way, I told <mistermac> that I would return to the WT pages, if someone can persuade me that Black still can win. Currently it looks dire. I am in correspondence with <peterfritz> who has a faster box than <g.mueller>, and he still thinks Black has a chance.|
Well I doubt it.
And on the WT pages they are poking around in the fog.
Super move <18... d3> YES! So complex, only Williams will know for sure how to draw.
|Nov-24-13|| ||Tiggler: <DcGentle> Like all others previously in your situation, you assume you are the only one who knows anything. So, my suggestion, do not return to the game page but wait for the postmortem, and then prove that your move would have won.|
I know you already proved it to your own satisfaction, but unfortunately, that is not enough. You already lamented that no one (important) believed you. Actually you stated that they ignored you, but maybe they were just being too polite to say what they really thought.
Your credibility is on the line here, so take my suggestion seriously if you value it.
|Nov-24-13|| ||Tiggler: <mistermac: I have taken note of your post on my forum. Whether I shall reform as a result is a different matter.>|
The last thing I should want you to do is to reform.
By the way, did you know that the successor to Alexander the Great and Ivan the Terrible was Misha the Meets Expectations?
I thought not: no one ever heard of him.
|Nov-24-13|| ||Tiggler: Actually, Misha was the worst of the lot, and there are hundreds of him everywhere.|
|Nov-25-13|| ||DcGentle: <Tiggler: <<DcGentle> Like all others previously in your situation, you assume you are the only one who knows anything.>>|
No, actually I don't. ;-)
There is a small ray of hope, maybe the line with <22. Bxb4> I gave above can be improved but <peterfritz> is not sure either...
And I never claimed that I know it all.
And there is more to look at.
|Nov-25-13|| ||DcGentle: <Tiggler>: Today there was more life on the WT pages, my personal impression. ;-)|
|Nov-27-13|| ||Tiggler: <DcGentle> I noticed that too. I think many have been keeping their powder dry until white's 21st move is known.|
|Nov-27-13|| ||mistermac: <Tiggler>,
I have a question?
What technique do you use to note the transpositions on the AT. Do you use a sort with FEN as the Key?
|Nov-30-13|| ||Tiggler: <mistermac>
I wish that it were possible to download a directory of the node numbers with their FENs. Then it would be easy to find all the transpositions very fast.
One could make a list like that manually, but it would be a very laborious task.
So no, my method is just to look for transpositions by inspecting the tree diagram. I'm sure I miss many of them, especially in parts of the tree where I am not personally working.
The reason for marking them is twofold:
1) To discourage users from adding nodes and comments at more than one branch. To do this it is essential to find the transpositions before they sprout divergent continuations.
2) To enable the continuations to be found, and moved if necessary, after the 'wrong' branch has been played.
|Dec-02-13|| ||DcGentle: <Tiggler> Do you think this would be useful info on the main page?|
I know it's too late, but still it shows why I am unhappy:
<The Power Of Pawn Chains>
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